Two Families in Turmoil.....

Grandeeod

.... as boy (11) allegedly rapes girl (9):eek:

That's what the headline in the Indo says. Apparently happened on Easter Sunday in a field in a Laois town. The Indo doesn't mention Laois only Leinster, but a quick search reveals other mainstream media claiming its Laois. Regardless of where it happened, it's shocking to think that a child of 11 is sexually active enough to even contemplate attempting to or even have sex with a child of 9. How the hell will the powers that be deal with this one?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/two-families-in-turmoil-as-boy-11-allegedly-rapes-girl-9-36779878.html

ironwalk

Very very sad for both families involved.

Both children will be damaged by this, whatever the true story is behind it.
Both sets of families will be scarred.

All professionals involved will have to thread very carefully and delicately given their ages.

Graces7

Grandeeod wrote: »

.... as boy (11) allegedly rapes girl (9):eek:

That's what the headline in the Indo says. Apparently happened on Easter Sunday in a field in a Laois town. The Indo doesn't mention Laois only Leinster, but a quick search reveals other mainstream media claiming its Laois. Regardless of where it happened, it's shocking to think that a child of 11 is sexually active enough to even contemplate attempting to or even have sex with a child of 9. How the hell will the powers that be deal with this one?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/two-families-in-turmoil-as-boy-11-allegedly-rapes-girl-9-36779878.html

Children mature sexually earlier than they used to. google a few articles /Some say as early as 9 for a boy. Needs great care in families to recognise this,

Poor wee lass

DanWall

Grandeeod wrote: »

.... as boy (11) allegedly rapes girl (9):eek:

That's what the headline in the Indo says. Apparently happened on Easter Sunday in a field in a Laois town. The Indo doesn't mention Laois only Leinster, but a quick search reveals other mainstream media claiming its Laois. Regardless of where it happened, it's shocking to think that a child of 11 is sexually active enough to even contemplate attempting to or even have sex with a child of 9. How the hell will the powers that be deal with this one?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/two-families-in-turmoil-as-boy-11-allegedly-rapes-girl-9-36779878.html

Stop kids watching adult programmes on the TV

Grandeeod

DanWall wrote: »

Stop kids watching adult programmes on the TV

And perhaps getting easy online access to porn? I'm in my 40s and remembering back to when I was 11, I'd been told about the "birds and the bees", but the thoughts of actual sex was horrifying. FFS even when I did eventually take the plunge years later, I was a bag of nerves. I have to admit that I'm finding this story very disturbing.

Very sad Children who are sexually abused can act in sexually inappropriate ways. This is not the action of a well adjusted 11 yr old.

Grandeeod

Deleted User wrote: »

Very sad Children who are sexually abused can act in sexually inappropriate ways. This is not the action of a well adjusted 11 yr old.

Forgive me but are you trying to suggest that the 11 year old boy was previously sexually abused?

Grandeeod

Grandeeod wrote: »

Forgive me but are you trying to suggest that the 11 year old boy was previously sexually abused?

I of course don't know what went on here but it's the first thing that came in to my head. Really though it's not fair for me to speculate. Perhaps I shouldn't have made the post.

Grandeeod

Deleted User wrote: »

I of course don't know what went on here but it's the first thing that came in to my head. Really though it's not fair for me to speculate. Perhaps I shouldn't have made the post.

No, you're fine. I wasn't having a go. I merely wanted to clarify your post. Obviously, it could be a factor as it has been known to be a factor in similar cases.

Grandeeod

Grandeeod wrote: »

No, you're fine. I wasn't having a go. I merely wanted to clarify your post. Obviously, it could be a factor as it has been known to be a factor in similar cases.

It's a horrible case and I think the 11yr old will need treatment and support as well of course as the 9 yr old girl.

Grandeeod

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a horrible case and I think the 11yr old will need treatment and support as well of course as the 9 yr old girl.

You're right. They are both kids.

Mrs OBumble

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a horrible case and I think the 11yr old will need treatment and support as well of course as the 9 yr old girl.

At what age do you think the boy would be expected to take responsibility for his actions?

Should he be getting "treatment and support" if he was 12? 13? 14? 15? 16? 17? 18? 19? 20? 21? 22? 23?

Serious question. Where do you draw the line?

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

At what age do you think the boy would be expected to take responsibility for his actions?

Should he be getting "treatment and support" if he was 12? 13? 14? 15? 16? 17? 18? 19? 20? 21? 22? 23?

Serious question. Where do you draw the line?

I may be wrong. He may be a monster in the making.

RDM_83 again

I'm not sure this is really an appropriate thread for AH at all considering the age of those involved and the small size of Ireland.

SEPT 23 1989

He needs to be watched very carefully for the rest of his life

RDM_83 again

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I'm not sure this is really an appropriate thread for AH at all considering the age of those involved and the small size of Ireland.

You're right. I won't be commenting any further.

Grandeeod

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I'm not sure this is really an appropriate thread for AH at all considering the age of those involved and the small size of Ireland.

Its not a witch hunt thread. It is a very difficult topic, true, but surely its worthy of discussion? For the record I'm not a fan of the giant carpet and sweeping brush. That said I'm confident mods will keep an eye on anything untoward.

happyoutscan

I genuinely do not think there needs to be a thread about this.

Trigger Happy

happyoutscan wrote: »

I genuinely do not think there needs to be a thread about this.

I am with you on that one. No good can come out of this.

Gatling

It's not the first time and won't be the last time you hear something like this op ,

Mrs OBumble

Deleted User wrote: »

I may be wrong. He may be a monster in the making.

He raped a 9 year old.

In what way do you think he is not already a monster?

He needs to go on the sex offender's register, and be monitored forever.

Mod note:He is accused of raping a 9 year old. There has not been a finding of guilt at this stage. Please take note of this fact when posting please.

Buford T. Justice

erica74

Grandeeod wrote: »

it's shocking to think that a child of 11 is sexually active enough to even contemplate attempting to or even have sex with a child of 9.

I was 6 when my brother started abusing me, he was 12. It went on for about 4 years, just when I thought it was done, it would start again.

meeeeh

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

At what age do you think the boy would be expected to take responsibility for his actions?

Should he be getting "treatment and support" if he was 12? 13? 14? 15? 16? 17? 18? 19? 20? 21? 22? 23?

Serious question. Where do you draw the line?

Age of criminal responsibility is 12. I think kids younger can be charged with rape (or killing) but I very much doubt they would end up in some youth prison with 16 year olds. So lines are very clearly drawn.

This is only in the stages of investigation and any type of speculation about it or drawing any type of conclusions would be completely wrong at the moment.

wexie

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

At what age do you think the boy would be expected to take responsibility for his actions?

Should he be getting "treatment and support" if he was 12? 13? 14? 15? 16? 17? 18? 19? 20? 21? 22? 23?

Serious question. Where do you draw the line?

tough question and I certainly wouldn't want to be the one to have to answer it.

Personally I think they need treatment and support at pretty much any age (or at least treatment). But depending on age a level of punishment is appropriate of it's up to me.

Having said that I'd like to think rather than just age perhaps whoever does need to make these decisions will also look at maturity and other developmental factors.

I would imagine there's quite a bit of range in all of those when it comes to 11 year olds.

Grandeeod

happyoutscan wrote: »

I genuinely do not think there needs to be a thread about this.

Why not? And I'm not being smart with you. But because I started the thread, I have to ask.

meeeeh

Also I don't think speculating about sexual abuse is helpful at this stage. We were playing doctors with neighbour's kids at that age. There was nothing sexual about it and there was definitely no abuse but we explored our bodies. I don't want to imply that happened here but there is such a huge scope in what could of happened and why that it's really not worth speculating.

Gatling

Grandeeod wrote: »

Why not? And I'm not being smart with you. But because I started the thread, I have to ask.

Having very little facts don't help ,
For all anyone knows there was no actual rape and could a case of you show me yours and I'll show you mine kind of situation ,

Galwayguy35

Some people are just born bad to the bone.

Mary Bell, Thompson and Venebles being examples of this.

If this kid did what is alleged then he is in the same category.

Grandeeod

Gatling wrote: »

Having very little facts don't help ,
For all anyone knows there was no actual rape and could a case of you show me yours and I'll show you mine kind of situation ,

That's very true. In these days of heightened awareness, it could be a case of the age old "discovery" thing being hyped up. I would hope it is for all involved.

flutered

the time has come that acts such as this and the incident in the ballymun school need to be legistlated for, the peoples council or whatever it is called need to be given a new objective

I feel I should clarify my post regarding support and treatment given to the 11 yr old boy. It was made with the possibility of him also being abused. A discussion around early sexualised behaviour and what is appropriate and what isn't is certainly useful but I don't think it should be done within the context of this case.

It's only just happened and Ireland is a very small place. The last thing I would want to do is cause further distress to anyone reading here by an ill judged comment.

wexie

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Some people are just born bad to the bone.

I really genuinely don't believe that.

Now....I'm happy enough to concede I might be wrong in that belief. But I genuinely can't imagine there's such a thing as a newborn baby that already has bad in them. Made bad by poor parenting, unstable childhood, psychological trauma, poor life decisions or whatever else, absolutely.

Do I believe there are adults beyond redemption, again absolutely.

But I just cannot believe there is such a thing as babies being born that can't be turned into somewhat functioning, or at least not evil bastard, adults.

And if you have proof otherwise please keep it to yourself. I'm a cynical enough bastard as it is, please leave me this illusion. (if that's what it is)

:(:o

meeeeh

flutered wrote: »

the time has come that acts such as this and the incident in the ballymun school need to be legistlated for, the peoples council or whatever it is called need to be given a new objective

Acts such as this? Do you know more than rest of us?

iamwhoiam

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Some people are just born bad to the bone.

Mary Bell, Thompson and Venebles being examples of this.

If this kid did what is alleged then he is in the same category.

Mary Bell wasn't born bad in my opinion , she was a product of bad parenting and neglectful childhhood . Mary herself remembers being offered fior sex to friends of her mothers
Most bad children are a product of bad childhoods and a lack of structure or of sexual or physical abuse

screamer

I think the bigger question for sure is what age kids should be made responsible for their actions? Our laws are always playing catch up outdated and archiac. In that void, our children are not being protected and more and more children are being abused emotionally and in this case allegedly sexually by peers. We must protect our children and childhood in general.

wexie

screamer wrote: »

I think the bigger question for sure is what age kids should be made responsible for their actions?

that's certainly a discussion worth having. You don't need to look too far these days to see young kids you can reasonably assume are going to get in trouble with the law.

Not having them take responsibility for their actions isn't going to help turn them into well adjusted adults.

gingergirl

Recently listened to Mary Flaherty from CARI Foundation explaining they are seeing children as young as 5 who are displaying sexualised behaviour which may be put down to accidently accessing online pornography. All very depressing stuff, childhood is so short

eviltwin

gingergirl wrote: »

Recently listened to Mary Flaherty from CARI Foundation explaining they are seeing children as young as 5 who are displaying sexualised behaviour which may be put down to accidently accessing online pornography. All very depressing stuff, childhood is so short

I used to work for them. When I left we had more calls about child on child abuse than adult on child. I agree with the poster who said this could be a case of two victims. It's possible it's a kid acting out something he saw online. I hope all involved get the right support, sadly it's virtually non existent

Grandeeod

gingergirl wrote: »

Recently listened to Mary Flaherty from CARI Foundation explaining they are seeing children as young as 5 who are displaying sexualised behaviour which may be put down to accidently accessing online pornography. All very depressing stuff, childhood is so short

eviltwin wrote: »

I used to work for them. When I left we had more calls about child on child abuse than adult on child. I agree with the poster who said this could be a case of two victims. It's possible it's a kid acting out something he saw online. I hope all involved get the right support, sadly it's virtually non existent

Both these posts are aspects that I thought of when I read the original news reports. While none of us know the exact circumstances and some of us think it could be innocent play that's been misinterpreted. if it is as serious as reported, then I wouldn't be accusing any 11 year old of being evil etc. I'd be really wondering about the access to online porn and its influence.

There has been lots of debate about the changing sexual attitudes among consenting teens and actual adults. Due to the easy access to porn and what it portrays a lot of blurring with reality goes on. Porn creates a level of expectation of what women should act like in a sexual situation. While not a recent thing, its certainly more pronounced these days. Even men are under pressure in terms of dick size and performance.

Therefore its not beyond the bounds of possibility that kids may be exposed to parents using porn and even accessing it themselves in an uncontrolled environment. This can be a very disconcerting experience to kids heading towards puberty and a sexual awakening. Another poster mentioned TV earlier in the thread. The bounderies of TV soaps has been pushed to the point that things are mentioned and shown well before the watershed that are totally inappropriate for young kids as mammy and daddy sit watching them.

The relevance to this thread can't be overlooked.

Skyfloater

Mods, could you please close this thread.

Squatman

wexie wrote: »

I really genuinely don't believe that.

Now....I'm happy enough to concede I might be wrong in that belief. But I genuinely can't imagine there's such a thing as a newborn baby that already has bad in them. Made bad by poor parenting, unstable childhood, psychological trauma, poor life decisions or whatever else, absolutely.

Do I believe there are adults beyond redemption, again absolutely.

But I just cannot believe there is such a thing as babies being born that can't be turned into somewhat functioning, or at least not evil bastard, adults.

And if you have proof otherwise please keep it to yourself. I'm a cynical enough bastard as it is, please leave me this illusion. (if that's what it is)

:(:o

ahh your obviously not in touch with the teachings of the catholic church. perhaps the 11 year old wasnt baptised?

Squatman

Skyfloater wrote: »

Mods, could you please close this thread.

why?

Grandeeod

Skyfloater wrote: »

Mods, could you please close this thread.

Why???

BoatMad

screamer wrote: »

I think the bigger question for sure is what age kids should be made responsible for their actions? Our laws are always playing catch up outdated and archiac. In that void, our children are not being protected and more and more children are being abused emotionally and in this case allegedly sexually by peers. We must protect our children and childhood in general.

under irish law, the child can be charged and prosecuted , an entirely different question is should he. This is a very difficult situation and one where we shouldn't be speculating

Squatman

Grandeeod wrote: »

Why???

obviously this person is of a better moral standing than us folk.

Its not catholic ireland, its a very serious matter, and one that deserves discussion or debate, particularly given two post that came out of the thread so far- (in short)
1 poster said she was abused for 4 years, at the age of 6 (hasnt garnered any attention for some reason)
1 poster mentioned working for an organisation whereby child on child abuse is out numbering adult on child abuse.

Whilst nobody should be speculating on the identity, or the innocence of either party, given what we have learned from 3 pages of the thread so far, a discussion is very much merited.

TLDR - go and be shocked somewhere else!

wexie

Squatman wrote: »

ahh your obviously not in touch with the teachings of the catholic church. perhaps the 11 year old wasnt baptised?

no indeed I am not. I'm a bad Catholic as Dara O'Briain would say

erica74

Skyfloater wrote: »

Mods, could you please close this thread.

I think that's a very bad precedent to set. Child abuse and abuse in general went on unchecked for so long (and obviously still does) because people don't want to talk about it. It's awkward, it's uncomfortable, it's very sensitive. If not handled correctly, even more damage can be done to the victims. It needs to be handled correctly, yes, but the discussion should never be shut down.
As long as nobody identifies anyone involved, there should be no calls to close the thread.

Graces7

This is learned behaviour surely? needs to look at the home, at what he has had access to in the way of porn? Internet. smart phone? Lack of parental supervision?

Rather than seeing him as some kind of monster

Also surely sex education and associated acceptable and safe behaviour is surely down to the parents? To the home.

This is not an academic issue. It is a life issue

iamwhoiam

Graces7 wrote: »

This is learned behaviour surely? needs to look at the home, at what he has had access to in the way of porn? Internet. smart phone? Lack of parental supervision?

Rather than seeing him as some kind of monster

Also surely sex education and associated acceptable and safe behaviour is surely down to the parents? To the home.

This is not an academic issue. It is a life issue

It can also be outside the home in fairness .Look at all the incidents of abuse that happened by a trusted sports coach or club leader or indeed another family member.But I agree that the background must be looked into and all the help given to both parties .

Skyfloater

Skyfloater wrote: »

Mods, could you please close this thread.

I think the specifics of this particular case shouldn’t be discussed but the discussion re child abuse or sexualisation is more important now than ever before.

There is a lot in the media recently about sex education in the school system ignoring the fact that children first educators are their families. The attitude and actions of parents, siblings and extended family has more of a bearing on the child’s behavior than sex education within the school system.

Graces7

iamwhoiam wrote: »

It can also be outside the home in fairness .Look at all the incidents of abuse that happened by a trusted sports coach or club leader or indeed another family member.But I agree that the background must be looked into and all the help given to both parties .

It would be unusual for that to manifest in opposite sex abuse of this kind. This comes across as copy cat?