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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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    #932
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    Just listened to 30mins of coverage on Newstalk and the anti male bias is pretty apparent and borderline militant.

    Just some observations:

    1. They're at pains to stress that the defendants have been found Not Guilty rather than innocent. = true but why such emphasis, it's as if they're trying to bend the verdict as close to guilty as possible without saying it.

    2. Several commentators have expressed the view that they 'believe both sides'. = so they're all telling the truth......how the fcuk do you resolve that situation, toss a coin? And would they have taken the same position in the event of a guilty verdict....would, they, fcuk!!!

    3. The complainant has received a great deal of emotional and moral support for coming forward, I literally haven't heard one negative word about her despite the jury not siding with her (ps, I'm not calling for any negative comments btw, this is just an observation). Contrast this to the 4 defendants, the best they've gotten so far is cold apathetic acknowledgement of their non guilt. No wishing them well for the future, no acknowledgement of their emotional stress, no information on who to contact for support if you've been wrongfully accused of anything (if such a thing exists).......but we have had people on from the rape crisis centre.

    Now if the lads were found guilty they would have been universially condemned and the court would have handed out punishment and rightfully so. But the not guilty verdicts seems to have been met with a sort of toxic disappointment, are we to replace 'trial by jury' with 'no trial, you're guilty because the complainant said so'?


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    #933
    irishrebe
    Registered Users Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    Deleted User wrote: »
    irishrebe wrote:
    Now we're policing victims' reactions to being assaulted? You couldn't ****ing make it up. I sent a similar text when I was randomly attacked in the street years ago. I was shocked, angry and in disbelief about what had just happened. Thankfully the Gardai didn't use it as evidence of how I must be a lying hoor.

    You do realise that it was only said that it seemed odd. Nobody was policing anything,  but we're saying that it didn't seem like a typical reaction.  And to a lot of people it does seem odd.   Its a fair observation.   But you obviously know best from your anecdotal experience. Calm the **** down.   Not everything is victim blaming.
    That is exactly what victim blaming is. You're implying she's a liar because she didn't react the way you wanted her to. And tbh, I don't think the reaction was even that weird.


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    #934
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,782 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    Appledreams15 wrote: »
    Of course, it's in your favour?

    Would you be suprised to know that Ireland is considered a bit archaic, in Europe?

    We had a rape case where 50 men shook a rapists hand in court in Ireland. Is it that far away from stoning a rape victim in the Middle East?

    We have a reputation for treating women badly.


    FYP: 'We had ONE rape case ......'


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    #935
    sightband
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 670 ✭✭✭sightband


    david75 wrote: »
    In a perfect world. Ask anyone here celebrating this verdict how they feel about Michael Jackson who was found innocent and up on charges easily disproved as a result of people using their kids to blackmail and threaten him.

    Case was thrown out of court and he rightly walked off a free man. But this stuff sticks. You can’t escape an allegation. On his level internationally nor in a small town like Derry.

    Nobody is coming out of this happy. Especially the woman involved.

    I get your point but dunno if Michael Jackson is a good example, the lad was a f*cking headbanger.


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    #936
    The Talking Bread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,050 ✭✭✭✭The Talking Bread


    tonycascarino wrote: »
    Your one will probably be offered multiple TV and newspaper interviews, a book deal and will then top it all off with an appearance on Celebrity Big Brother such is today's nutty world.

    Very original post


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    #937
    marklazarcovic
    Registered Users Posts: 6,211 ✭✭✭marklazarcovic


    I'd say a lot of folk would be looked at somewhat differently if their private texts were revealed to the public too. Innocent but baaaad men , because they slagged about getting laid,like lads n lasses everywhere don't do it all the time,it's not the 40s, women like wild stuff too,and ain't afraid to use men for sex either.

    Ever sent regrettable texts ?


    Imagine yours shown to the world.



    And your innocent.


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    #938
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    Just listened to 30mins of coverage on Newstalk and the anti male bias is pretty apparent and borderline militant.

    Just some observations:

    1. They're at pains to stress that the defendants have been found Not Guilty rather than innocent. = true but why such emphasis, it's as if they're trying to bend the verdict as close to guilty as possible without saying it.

    2. Several commentators have expressed the view that they 'believe both sides'. = so they're all telling the truth......how the fcuk do you resolve that situation, toss a coin? And would they have taken the same position in the event of a guilty verdict....would, they, fcuk!!!

    3. The complainant has received a great deal of emotional and moral support for coming forward, I literally haven't heard one negative word about her despite the jury not siding with her (ps, I'm not calling for any negative comments btw, this is just an observation). Contrast this to the 4 defendants, the best they've gotten so far is cold apathetic acknowledgement of their non guilt. No wishing them well for the future, no acknowledgement of their emotional stress, no information on who to contact for support if you've been wrongfully accused of anything (if such a thing exists).......but we have had people on from the rape crisis centre.

    Now if the lads were found guilty they would have been universially condemned and the court would have handed out punishment and rightfully so. But the not guilty verdicts seems to have been met with a sort of toxic disappointment, are we to replace 'trial by jury' with 'no trial, you're guilty because the complainant said so'?


    Instead we have a trial by social media where a young woman is being castigated for possibly being raped yet her case wasn’t upheld.


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    #939
    stevejr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭stevejr


    _Dara_ wrote: »
    Misogyny encompasses a number of things. It’s not just hatred. Mistreatment, disregard, contempt for women. Yes, they absolutely fall under the banner.

    Don't women mistreat, disregard, and have contempt for men. But that's frequently called feminism when it should labelled Misandry...

    Pot, kettle and all that...

    What's the reason for being reasonable?

    Is that an unreasonable question?



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    #940
    dark crystal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    PistolsAtDawn wrote: »
    On a scale of 1-10 how saddened are you by the verdict?

    Isn't there even the slightest possibility that she wanted to be plugged by big famous rugby players and then tried to grab a little fame for herself afterwards?
    PistolsAtDawn wrote: »
    She should be prosecuted now, named and shamed.

    You're shaming her enough for everyone, good man yourself.


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    #941
    Deusexmachina
    Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭Deusexmachina


    NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »
    Just based on their whatsapp msgs alone they shouldn't be back on the team, ever. If we going to worship athletes as heroes they should be held to a high standard of behavior and while i would not be so naive as to expect young men to always be perfect gentlemen, I don't feel a gang of them banding together to defile a 19 yr old young lady and leave her bleeding and crying after the encounter is in any way acceptable. will never watch ireland again if they are on the squad at all.

    Well, theres your problem then. They are good at sport. That's all.


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    #942
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,059 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Appledreams15 wrote: »
    Of course, it's in your favour?

    Would you be suprised to know that Ireland is considered a bit archaic, in Europe?

    We had a rape case where 50 men shook a rapists hand in court in Ireland. Is it that far away from stoning a rape victim in the Middle East?

    We have a reputation for treating women badly.

    Oh really.....

    Ok, Ireland has one of the lowest incidences of rape in Europe. Who are these people that consider Ireland archaic? Some fools on twitter? Please!

    Want to compare Ireland to the Middle East, christ on the bike. Well, in the Middle East she would have been accused for adultery or some other such nonesense and maybe in parts of Africa, stoned to death for her 'crime', so yea light and day my friend.

    Lastly, where is this 'reputation' of treating women badly? Who says it and where does it exist. I think you will find that its an 'Irish' thing.

    When people come out with this generic 'Woe us Ireland' stuff, which is pathetic. I generally go all guns blazing because its an argument fuelled from self pity and insecurity.


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    #943
    irishrebe
    Registered Users Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    Appledreams15 wrote: »
    markodaly wrote: »
    No, Just no...

    Of course, it's in your favour?

    Would you be suprised to know that Ireland is considered a bit archaic, in Europe?

    We had a rape case where 50 men shook a rapists hand in court in Ireland. Is it that far away from stoning a rape victim in the Middle East?

    We have a reputation for treating women badly.
    Appledreams15 wrote: »
    markodaly wrote: »
    No, Just no...

    Of course, it's in your favour?

    Would you be suprised to know that Ireland is considered a bit archaic, in Europe?

    We had a rape case where 50 men shook a rapists hand in court in Ireland. Is it that far away from stoning a rape victim in the Middle East?

    We have a reputation for treating women badly.
    Indeed. I sent this thread link to some Canadian friends and they'll absolutely appalled at some of the ideas on display here. I have people on Facebook saying the woman deserved whatever happened because she has 'low morals', with dozens of likes. It's honestly scary.


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    #944
    memorystick
    Registered Users Posts: 1,582 ✭✭✭memorystick


    Was it a Protestant jury for a Protestant establishment?


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    #945
    C__MC
    Registered Users Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭C__MC


    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    Just listened to 30mins of coverage on Newstalk and the anti male bias is pretty apparent and borderline militant.

    Just some observations:

    1. They're at pains to stress that the defendants have been found Not Guilty rather than innocent. = true but why such emphasis, it's as if they're trying to bend the verdict as close to guilty as possible without saying it.

    2. Several commentators have expressed the view that they 'believe both sides'. = so they're all telling the truth......how the fcuk do you resolve that situation, toss a coin? And would they have taken the same position in the event of a guilty verdict....would, they, fcuk!!!

    3. The complainant has received a great deal of emotional and moral support for coming forward, I literally haven't heard one negative word about her despite the jury not siding with her (ps, I'm not calling for any negative comments btw, this is just an observation). Contrast this to the 4 defendants, the best they've gotten so far is cold apathetic acknowledgement of their non guilt. No wishing them well for the future, no acknowledgement of their emotional stress, no information on who to contact for support if you've been wrongfully accused of anything (if such a thing exists).......but we have had people on from the rape crisis centre.

    Now if the lads were found guilty they would have been universially condemned and the court would have handed out punishment and rightfully so. But the not guilty verdicts seems to have been met with a sort of toxic disappointment, are we to replace 'trial by jury' with 'no trial, you're guilty because the complainant said so'?

    +1

    Just scrolled through twitter, terrible vile comments about the lads being spouted. For the accused, it’s all moral support and #IBelieveHer. I turned off Matt cooper earlier, it was almost as if the lads should have been concvicted.

    The 4 lads have lost everything. Whatever about Olding and Jackson, mc ilroy lost his scholarship for business in the US. Im sure Harrison has lost credibility to.

    There are no winners but the lads are getting an unfair bashing. And yet they are not guilty.

    The world is crazy


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    #946
    irishrebe
    Registered Users Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    markodaly wrote: »
    Appledreams15 wrote: »
    Of course, it's in your favour?

    Would you be suprised to know that Ireland is considered a bit archaic, in Europe?

    We had a rape case where 50 men shook a rapists hand in court in Ireland. Is it that far away from stoning a rape victim in the Middle East?

    We have a reputation for treating women badly.

    Oh really.....

    Ok, Ireland has one of the lowest incidences of rape in Europe. Who are these people that consider Ireland archaic? Some fools on twitter? Please!

    Want to compare Ireland to the Middle East, christ on the bike. Well, in the Middle East she would have been accused for adultery or some other such nonesense and maybe in parts of Africa, stoned to death for her 'crime', so yea light and day my friend.

    Lastly, where is this 'reputation' of treating women badly? Who says it and where does it exist. I think you will find that its an 'Irish' thing.

    When people come out with this generic 'Woe us Ireland' stuff, which is pathetic. I generally go all guns blazing because its an argument fuelled from self pity and insecurity.
    Instead of comparing Ireland to the Middle East, why not compare it to the rest of Europe, and see how well it fares?


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    #947
    The Talking Bread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,050 ✭✭✭✭The Talking Bread


    sporina wrote: »
    I really hope she was telling the truth (not that I hope she was raped etc) but because yes, this will make it difficult for rape victims to come forward in the future..

    What???


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    #948
    dark crystal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    markodaly wrote: »
    Oh really.....

    Ok, Ireland has one of the lowest incidences of rape in Europe. Who are these people that consider Ireland archaic? Some fools on twitter? Please!

    One of the lowest rates of conviction for rape. You seem strangely obsessed with Twitter!
    Want to compare Ireland to the Middle East, christ on the bike. Well, in the Middle East she would have been accused for adultery or some other such nonesense and maybe in parts of Africa, stoned to death for her 'crime', so yea light and day my friend.

    Is mistreatment of women a one-upmanship thing now? Must be Twitter's fault....
    Lastly, where is this 'reputation' of treating women badly? Who says it and where does it exist. I think you will find that its an 'Irish' thing.

    Eh, Magdalene Laundries or no bodily autonomy ring any bells?
    When people come out with this generic 'Woe us Ireland' stuff, which is pathetic. I generally go all guns blazing because its an argument fuelled from self pity and insecurity.

    I find the anti feminist movement just as fuelled by those things.


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    #949
    irishrebe
    Registered Users Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    Charles Bukowski wrote: »
    irishrebe wrote: »
    Indeed. I sent this thread link to some Canadian friends and they'll absolutely appalled at some of the ideas on display here. I have people on Facebook saying the woman deserved whatever happened because she has 'low morals', with dozens of likes. It's honestly scary.

    Let me guess, your Canadian friends are outraged because the men were found innocent after a fair trial? Don't worry, we have plenty of idiots like that in Ireland too.
    No, nothing to do with the results of the trial. Purely based on the hundreds of archaic opinions displayed on this thread.


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    #950
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,347 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    Just listened to 30mins of coverage on Newstalk and the anti male bias is pretty apparent and borderline militant.

    Just some observations:

    1. They're at pains to stress that the defendants have been found Not Guilty rather than innocent. = true but why such emphasis, it's as if they're trying to bend the verdict as close to guilty as possible without saying it.

    2. Several commentators have expressed the view that they 'believe both sides'. = so they're all telling the truth......how the fcuk do you resolve that situation, toss a coin? And would they have taken the same position in the event of a guilty verdict....would, they, fcuk!!!

    3. The complainant has received a great deal of emotional and moral support for coming forward, I literally haven't heard one negative word about her despite the jury not siding with her (ps, I'm not calling for any negative comments btw, this is just an observation). Contrast this to the 4 defendants, the best they've gotten so far is cold apathetic acknowledgement of their non guilt. No wishing them well for the future, no acknowledgement of their emotional stress, no information on who to contact for support if you've been wrongfully accused of anything (if such a thing exists).......but we have had people on from the rape crisis centre.

    Now if the lads were found guilty they would have been universially condemned and the court would have handed out punishment and rightfully so. But the not guilty verdicts seems to have been met with a sort of toxic disappointment, are we to replace 'trial by jury' with 'no trial, you're guilty because the complainant said so'?

    This can be viewed on very many different levels.

    Two men had sex with a groupie and were dismissive of her in texts afterwards. Very hard to be emotionally supportive of them. At the very least they were very stupid and misogynist.

    Of course, that doesn't mean they were guilty of rape.

    The grey areas of consent are huge. You meet someone, you go to bed consensually with them, but something changes. Do they know you well enough to sense that from your change of mood, your change of tone? If if they do, is their judgment impaired by drink, or yours?

    I have no problem with "no means no", it is the area of "yes sometimes means no" or "maybe yes, maybe no" that it becomes a problem.


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    #951
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    C__MC wrote: »
    +1

    Just scrolled through twitter, terrible vile comments about the lads being spouted. For the accused, it’s all moral support and #IBelieveHer. I turned off Matt cooper earlier, it was almost as if the lads should have been concvicted.

    The 4 lads have lost everything. Whatever about Olding and Jackson, mc ilroy lost his scholarship for business in the US. Im sure Harrison has lost credibility to.

    There are no winners but the lads are getting an unfair bashing. And yet they are not guilty.

    The world is crazy

    I have trouble with that. Would you or I feel the same way with the same verdict and social media blitz if it was your sister or neice? Even with all the facts in hand you’d be angry. I would too.


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    #952
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    Inmyownworld wrote: »
    Not guilty doesn't equate to innocent.

    Just like them being found not guilty doesn't equate to her making it up.

    Not surprised with the verdict but I am surprised how quickly they reached it.

    Every one of their lives changed after that, hers and theirs.

    They don't need to prove their innocence, they are presumed innocent from outset and have been found not guilty by a jury of their peers. From looking at twitter, many people would like to do away with the presumption of innocence and due process.

    I also find interesting the number of people who suddenly take issue with the amount of time it took the jury to deliberate, if the verdict had been different would the time frame have been an issue for them?

    Last Friday (less than a week ago) it took the jury seven hours and 32 minutes of deliberation to deliver the guilty verdict in the murder of sx month old Joshua Sussbier by John Tighe https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/john-tighe-given-life-sentence-for-murdering-6-month-old-son-1.3437970

    Do people think that justice has not been served because of the amount of time it took the jury to deliberate?

    What part of the evidence do people have an issue with that has not been heard by the jury and would have resulted in a different outcome?


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    #953
    Deusexmachina
    Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭Deusexmachina


    irishrebe wrote: »
    That is exactly what victim blaming is. You're implying she's a liar because she didn't react the way you wanted her to. And tbh, I don't think the reaction was even that weird.

    I am totally saying she's a liar. Because she lied. She has put four innocent men through years of agony, destroyed their careers, cost them a fortune, dragged their good names through the mud, terrified their families about what would happen to them...

    And she was lying. They didnt rape her. It was consensual. She realised she had made a big mistake and decided to blame them entirely for it. And to ruin them.

    And she has no regrets apparently....


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    #954
    razorblunt
    Registered Users Posts: 17,300 ✭✭✭✭razorblunt


    The Talking Bread wrote: »
    He truly sounds like a tosser.
    MissShihTzu wrote: »
    Looks as though he's learned nothing from this. He might be innocent, but he should have kept his head down.

    Do people ... do people think that’s real?


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    #955
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    MissShihTzu wrote: »
    Looks as though he's learned nothing from this. He might be innocent, but he should have kept his head down.

    His had to keep his head down since he was charged. To me it's the response of a man happy to have his freedom tonight and making light of what he feels was false allegation, which his been vindicated of in a courtrooms


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    #956
    The Talking Bread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,050 ✭✭✭✭The Talking Bread


    Deusexmachina wrote: »
    irishrebe wrote: »
    That is exactly what victim blaming is. You're implying she's a liar because she didn't react the way you wanted her to. And tbh, I don't think the reaction was even that weird.

    I am totally saying she's a liar. Because she lied. She has put four innocent men through years of agony, destroyed their careers, cost them a fortune, dragged their good names through the mud, terrified their families about what would happen to them...

    And she was lying. They didnt rape her. It was consensual. She realised she had made a big mistake and decided to blame them entirely for it. And to ruin them.

    And she has no regrets apparently....

    Your opinion.

    Your opinion.

    Stupid post.


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    #957
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    xtal191 wrote: »
    Has to be fake

    It’s real. You’ll now see people defending his right to celebrate.


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    #958
    dark crystal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    CarlosHarpic wrote: »
    False rape accusations by sobered up slags and bunny boilers must be met with mandatory 20-year prison sentances.

    Only way to protect innocent men.

    You stay classy there, Carlos.

    And people moan and bitch about the crazy nutters on Twitter...


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    #959
    irishrebe
    Registered Users Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    Deusexmachina wrote: »
    irishrebe wrote: »
    That is exactly what victim blaming is. You're implying she's a liar because she didn't react the way you wanted her to. And tbh, I don't think the reaction was even that weird.

    I am totally saying she's a liar. Because she lied. She has put four innocent men through years of agony, destroyed their careers, cost them a fortune, dragged their good names through the mud, terrified their families about what would happen to them...

    And she was lying. They didnt rape her. It was consensual. She realised she had made a big mistake and decided to blame them entirely for it. And to ruin them.

    And she has no regrets apparently....
    You have absolutely no idea whether that is true or not. But it didn't take long for your true bias to come out. You do realise that the men being found guilty doesn't mean she didn't consider herself to have consented? Why are you assuming she's a malicious lying scumbag who purposely ruined people's lives?


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    #960
    CarlosHarpic
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 108 ✭✭CarlosHarpic


    retro:electro wrote: »
    At the end of the day, whatever your feelings on this case may be- there simply wasn’t enough evidence to prosecute. Personally I don’t know how the jury reached a decision so quickly, as every day when the summaries went out my mind changed. For me, the whole thing hinges on the witness who walked in. She was the crux of it and I think her testament was 90% of the reason they got off. Whatever your feelings on this, whether you think they should have been found guilty or not- I think we can all agree that the texts they shared about her the next day were nothing short of disgusting, and they showed their true nature. Okay, so they may not have raped her. But they showed her absolutely no regard and spoke about her as if she was a piece of meat.

    That's because she chose to be a piece of meat. They didn't ambush an innocent girl returning from a flower arranging class.

    Personal behavior = consequences. Slags and sluts actually do exist.


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    #961
    The Talking Bread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,050 ✭✭✭✭The Talking Bread


    razorblunt wrote: »
    The Talking Bread wrote: »
    He truly sounds like a tosser.
    MissShihTzu wrote: »
    Looks as though he's learned nothing from this. He might be innocent, but he should have kept his head down.

    Do people ... do people think that’s real?

    I just seen link here. And the blue tick. Didn't delve into it.

    I assume it's not (hopefully )


This discussion has been closed.
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