NTA's 3bn Underground Metro Plan Unveiled

skelly22

All this guff has been announced again and again and again........from as far back as 16 years ago. Since then, thousands of kilometres of metro have been built, unfortunately none of them in Ireland. No doubt someone's going to make an actual financial killing on this again, just like the last time, drawing pictures of what a proposed metro system in Dublin might actually look like and charging exorbitant consultancy services for a pie-in-the-sky non-existent service that never materialises. And once they have that spent, lo & behold in 2027 they announce another Metro Service for Dublin that, all going well, will come into service in 2037. Ah yes....only in Ireland.

bk

IE 222 wrote: »

Its not Dart expansion that is key its heavy rail expansion thats most important. Running and changing to Dart on the acual railway expansion just makes more operational sense as it opens up the network completely providing more flexibility.

The DART expansion will serve out to Maynooth, Drogheda and Celbridge.

Thus are the reasonable limits of reasonable commuter distances (With the exception of Celbridge) Beyond that you are talking about intercity and connecting them directly to the airport should never be a priority over the Dublin region commuter services.

And they were never planned to under Dart Underground (the clue is in the name).

Intercity services via the Maynooth line can have an easy change at Whitworth road to the airport.

Intercity services from the Northern Line can be well served by an extension of Metro to Donabate.

That just leaves Hueston intercity services being a bit awkward. They would have two changes under this plan which is certainly not ideal. Though it would also have been the case under the old Dart Underground plan too.

IE 222 wrote: »

Yes a rail link to the Airport is vital and long over due but Metro is restricted it what it provides to the overall city as it doesn't support anything west of O'Connell Bridge. I know you argue Whitworth Rd offers rail connections but these will only serve a small few even with the railway upgraded to Dart. It still only going to bring people to the city and a less than 5% of users per train to the Airport.

Yes, exactly, anyone on the Maynooth line or from Hazelhatch in will be very happy with a nice quick interchange to the airport at Whitworth Road.

The Maynooth line will do very well out of this. It will be really no different then the original DU plan was for them, giving them great quick connections to the Airport and various locations in the city center via Whitworth Road.

IE 222

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

When was the last time we seen a new heavy rail line in Dublin? I think once this gets done and people see the benefit, there will be talk of a second metro link. It might not be delivered in the next 25 years but it could be soon after that.

The 2 luas lines opened in 2004, and the cross city opened 13 years later with the biggest financial crash the country had ever seen happening in the middle. Okay, cross city was cheaper than a second metro line would but I still see it happening.

Seen as you are already aware Metro will not be adequate to the overall city then why not build something that will make significant impact from the begining. Yes Swords and Airport need rail but the southern end of this project is already served by rail. Why build something insignificant known that it take 20-30 years before phase 2 is put in place.

The city is crippled now never mind 30 years time.

bk

IE 222 wrote: »

If I need to clearify the obvious then yeah with with expection of "Metro" we wont see any new "heavy rail lines" in the next 25 years.

It isn't obvious. This Metro versus heavy rail fetish is silly.

No one cares outside of some train enthusiasts.

All that matters is total capacity of a line.

Each little Luas line carries more people then the DART and both Luas lines carry more people then the entire Irish Rail Dublin area commuter network.

The Metro will have 4 times as much capacity. It is way beyond what we will need for decades and I can assure you 98% of people won't care one bit that it doesn't happen to run on Irish gauge.

bk

IE 222 wrote: »

Seen as you are already aware Metro will not be adequate to the overall city then why not build something that will make significant impact from the begining. Yes Swords and Airport need rail but the southern end of this project is already served by rail. Why build something insignificant known that it take 20-30 years before phase 2 is put in place.

Why extend the DART platforms to support 8 carriage DARTs?

Why spend €120 million on the city center resignalling to support 10 minutes DARTs?

AlmightyCushion

IE 222 wrote: »

Seen as you are already aware Metro will not be adequate to the overall city then why not build something that will make significant impact from the begining. Yes Swords and Airport need rail but the southern end of this project is already served by rail. Why build something insignificant known that it take 20-30 years before phase 2 is put in place.

The city is crippled now never mind 30 years time.

No single metro line would be adequate to the overall city. No matter what route you'd draw on a map, you'd be leaving out loads of places. The southern end of the project is costing peanuts compared to building a rail line some where else. If we were to spend the money that is being used to upgrade the green line on providing rail somewhere else, you'd get practically nothing for the money.

IE 222

bk wrote: »

The DART expansion will serve out to Maynooth, Drogheda and Celbridge.

Thus are the reasonable limits of reasonable commuter distances (With the exception of Celbridge) Beyond that you are talking about intercity and connecting them directly to the airport should never be a priority over the Dublin region commuter services.

And they were never planned to under Dart Underground (the clue is in the name).

Intercity services via the Maynooth line can have an easy change at Whitworth road to the airport.

Intercity services from the Northern Line can be well served by an extension of Metro to Donabate.

That just leaves Hueston intercity services being a bit awkward. They would have two changes under this plan which is certainly not ideal. Though it would also have been the case under the old Dart Underground plan too.



Yes, exactly, anyone on the Maynooth line or from Hazelhatch in will be very happy with a nice quick interchange to the airport at Whitworth Road.

The Maynooth line will do very well out of this. It will be really no different then the original DU plan was for them, giving them great quick connections to the Airport and various locations in the city center via Whitworth Road.

Dart is categorised as a heavy rail operation.

Why are you talking about Intercity services been prioritised to the Airport is this another suggestion your dropping on me as coming out with.

Look Im fully aware of the orgianal DU plan and what it meant, included and where Dart would be serving afterwards. Seen as you think 80% of Dublin city commute by public transport surely you must think DU would be a better option.

Yeah its possible but how many do you expect to available of this option. Vast majority in the D15 area would be quicker driving directly instead of detouring through Glasnevin.

Extend to Donabate now as well. You really have no idea about congestion issues around Dublin.

Again I dont see droves of people coming from the Maynooth line to connect to Airport when it would be easier and quicker to drive for most. Yeah they will have an extra stop or 2 too choose from like they currently have by changing at Broombridge onto Luas. Otherwise they can just remain on the train as they currently do and not bother messing about trying to get down to a Metro.

Another problem I can envisage is that it will be rather difficult to board a rush hour Metro at Whitworth Rd having served Swords, Airport and so.

IE 222

bk wrote: »

It isn't obvious. This Metro versus heavy rail fetish is silly.

No one cares outside of some train enthusiasts.

All that matters is total capacity of a line.

Each little Luas line carries more people then the DART and both Luas lines carry more people then the entire Irish Rail Dublin area commuter network.

The Metro will have 4 times as much capacity. It is way beyond what we will need for decades and I can assure you 98% of people won't care one bit that it doesn't happen to run on Irish gauge.

How is heavy rail silly. Light rail in your words is struggling to cope with demand.

Your talking absolute rush here. What has Iriah gauge got to do with anything. Not sure were your getting your figures but I believe your wrong in passenger numbers and capacity.

IE 222

IE 222 wrote: »

How is heavy rail silly. Light rail in your words is struggling to cope with demand.

Your talking absolute rush here. What has Iriah gauge got to do with anything. Not sure were your getting your figures but I believe your wrong in passenger numbers and capacity.

Seen as you think 80% of Dublin city commute by public transport I don't think you really have a real understanding of what is needed in the grand scheme of things.

IE 222

bk wrote: »

Why extend the DART platforms to support 8 carriage DARTs?

Why spend €120 million on the city center resignalling to support 10 minutes DARTs?

Why not

IE 222

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

No single metro line would be adequate to the overall city. No matter what route you'd draw on a map, you'd be leaving out loads of places. The southern end of the project is costing peanuts compared to building a rail line some where else. If we were to spend the money that is being used to upgrade the green line on providing rail somewhere else, you'd get practically nothing for the money.

But you will be spending the money either way. Just delaying the inevitable. Sure we will be just paying it out in emission fines in the meantime.

bk

While of course many people in those areas will continue to drive or taxi to the airport for the odd trip. Public transport is useful for the many people who work at the airport and nearby business park and have to go there every day and thus can't afford a taxi/parking every day.

And BTW you are the one who was going on about the airport and your fantasy heavy rail line from the Northern line to the airport.

If you want to discuss the journeys into the city from the Maynooth line, etc. and how DART expansion will benefit those, I'm happy to go into detail with those routes with you.

As for changing at Whitworth road, yes, that is why it is good that Metro is being built to such a high capacity, it will leave room for people to transfer on there. Just as people transfer between Metro lines every day all over the world.

MGWR

bk wrote: »

• Electrification of Maynooth/M3 Parkway as far as Connolly/Docklands
• Electrification of Hazelhatch to Connolly/Docklands via PPT tunnel
• Big new interchange station at Whitworth between the above two lines and Metro Link.

All serving that wider community of West Dublin.

If any of that is actually true, then why the talk of dual-mode electric MU cars that can switch to diesel at the end of electrification?

Not that Hazelhatch is a natural terminus. Will these dual-mode cars be for expanding service to Kildare without electrification? All that additional equipment will necessitate greater axle loadings, never mind the increased maintenance costs and possibility of more frequent breakdowns.

Bad enough all of the spending on DMUs a decade ago. The country's still paying for that. Blowing money on the same old infrastructure means no money for new infrastructure to new routes.

BTW, "wider community" is a definitionless term. The existing railways cannot themselves provide an expanded service, and new destinations do not have railways going to them. When the Howth and Bray suburban lines were converted to DART about 38 years ago, CIE tried feeding them with local bus routes that had not existed beforehand; most of them are now gone, certainly the old route 101, and those that remain are not specifically for feeding the DART stations but more for local bus service; all have far less frequent service than when they started.

IE 222

bk wrote: »

While of course many people in those areas will continue to drive or taxi to the airport for the odd trip. Public transport is useful for the many people who work at the airport and nearby business park and have to go there every day and thus can't afford a taxi/parking every day.

And BTW you are the one who was going on about the airport and your fantasy heavy rail line from the Northern line to the airport.

If you want to discuss the journeys into the city from the Maynooth line, etc. and how DART expansion will benefit those, I'm happy to go into detail with those routes with you.

As for changing at Whitworth road, yes, that is why it is good that Metro is being built to such a high capacity, it will leave room for people to transfer on there. Just as people transfer between Metro lines every day all over the world.

Again they will just continue to drive.

Yeah as it offers an easy and cheap option to spur a heavy rail line from the Northern Line. Would you not use the Northern line if using heavy rail.

What capacity do you believe its going to be built at. 60M low floor trams wont provide the capacity your talking it up to be. Keep word there is BETWEEN metro Lines. This metro is providing a route between Swords, Airport and City centre. It will be just another point to point Luas route effectively.

bk

IE 222 wrote: »

How is heavy rail silly. Light rail in your words is struggling to cope with demand.

Metro is much higher specced then Luas. If they go with the 2.65m, HFV option it will be little different then a 4 carriage DART, but with much high frequency and thus capacity.

IE 222 wrote: »

Seen as you think 80% of Dublin city commute by public transport I don't think you really have a real understanding of what is needed in the grand scheme of things.

Do you want me to link you to the various travel surveys done by NTA, etc.?

IE 222 wrote: »

Why not

Exactly, why not spend 100 million quadrupling the capacity of the Green line, just like we have spend hundreds of millions expanding the capacity of DART (and it still manages to carry less people then one Luas line!)

bk

IE 222 wrote: »

Again they will just continue to drive.

Yeah as it offers an easy and cheap option to spur a heavy rail line from the Northern Line. Would you not use the Northern line if using heavy rail.

Because there is no need or benefit to it.

daheff

only just saw this plan today. Absolutely disgraceful.....its basically an extension of the greenline luas.....sure half the stops are the same. Surely the luas line doesnt need an underground on the same spot?

can we not have the metro serve different areas to the luas line (maybe run it a couple of miles away from this line)?

why oh why do we make a balls of transport plans in this country?

bk

MGWR wrote: »

BTW, "wider community" is a definitionless term. The existing railways cannot themselves provide an expanded service, and new destinations do not have railways going to them. When the Howth and Bray suburban lines were converted to DART about 38 years ago, CIE tried feeding them with local bus routes that had not existed beforehand; most of them are now gone, certainly the old route 101, and those that remain are not specifically for feeding the DART stations but more for local bus service; all have far less frequent service than when they started.

Sure, I use the term "wider community" because IE 222 has been using a very lose definition of the areas he wants to service all day.

I agree with you that previous feeder services failed badly. But hopefully with greater frequency and capacity on these rail lines and better, no penalty, integrated ticketing, they might work this time.

The way public transport works in most European cities is a couple of core, high capacity rail lines (mix of trams, Metro and heavy rail) running into the city from different directions, feed by local bus services.

This is slowly what we are starting to get too with these plans.

daheff

bk wrote: »

The DART expansion will serve out to Maynooth, Drogheda and Celbridge.

Thus are the reasonable limits of reasonable commuter distances (With the exception of Celbridge)

why with the exception of Celbridge...its closer than Maynooth or Drogheda

bk

daheff wrote: »

only just saw this plan today. Absolutely disgraceful.....its basically an extension of the greenline luas.....sure half the stops are the same. Surely the luas line doesnt need an underground on the same spot?

can we not have the metro serve different areas to the luas line (maybe run it a couple of miles away from this line)?

why oh why do we make a balls of transport plans in this country?

No it isn't an extension of the green line, it is a fantastic new rail line through the heart of our city. From Swords to the airport and through the city.

The Green line part is jsut a very nice and very cheap way of increasing the capacity of the Green line by four fold.

Any other alternative route would cost in the region of a billion extra or more.

bk

daheff wrote: »

why with the exception of Celbridge...its closer than Maynooth or Drogheda

Yes, that is what I said. Maynooth and Drogheda are at the extremes of commuting distance. Celbridge is closer, so it is the exception, I could see this line been electrified further out in future.

IE 222

bk wrote: »

Metro is much higher specced then Luas. If they go with the 2.65m, HFV option it will be little different then a 4 carriage DART, but with much high frequency and thus capacity.



Do you want me to link you to the various travel surveys done by NTA, etc.?



Exactly, why not spend 100 million quadrupling the capacity of the Green line, just like we have spend hundreds of millions expanding the capacity of DART (and it still manages to carry less people then one Luas line!)

Bit it wont be HFV. How will they have a higher capacity and frequency. Dart could run 8 car trains every 5 mins if it had it own purpose built network.

Yeah will you cause if the NTA think that 80% of Dublin city commute by public transport they should dismantled straight away.

Spend it when other much needed projects are completed

IE 222

bk wrote: »

Because there is no need or benefit to it.

No benefit????????? you really need to pull your head out of the sand.

bk

IE 222 wrote: »

Bit it wont be HFV. How will they have a higher capacity and frequency. Dart could run 8 car trains every 5 mins if it had it own purpose built network.

It is being considered, driverless HFV is one of the three options being considered.

Metros carry vast quantities of people every day in cities like Barcelona, Copenhagen, etc.

We really don't need the extra expense and trouble of a heavy rail system.

BTW 8 carriage DARTs were a nasty fix for the fact that they couldn't go with the preferred option of increasing the frequency of DART. The extra length of DARTs is one the the things that makes the Dart Underground tunnel so expensive.

IE 222

bk wrote: »

Sure, I use the term "wider community" because IE 222 has been using a very lose definition of the areas he wants to service all day.

I agree with you that previous feeder services failed badly. But hopefully with greater frequency and capacity on these rail lines and better, no penalty, integrated ticketing, they might work this time.

The way public transport works in most European cities is a couple of core, high capacity rail lines (mix of trams, Metro and heavy rail) running into the city from different directions, feed by local bus services.

This is slowly what we are starting to get too with these plans.

More crap out of you. Ive clearly detailed where I would like to see rail services expanded to. Ive even given a detailed plan as to what and where these routes would include.

IE 222

bk wrote: »

Any other alternative route would cost in the region of a billion extra or more.

Probably 2bn by the time they do. It needs to be spent. Your penny pinching ideas only serve a select few for a short number of years.

bk

IE 222 wrote: »

More crap out of you. Ive clearly detailed where I would like to see rail services expanded to. Ive even given a detailed plan as to what and where these routes would include.

No you haven't all you have said is a version of Dart Underground with a few more stations (and thus more costly) and some totally dreamt up heavy rail alignment from the Northern Line to Swords, the Airport and on to Glasnevin, which is totally indirect, goes nowhere and I couldn't see hardly anyone using.

You keep mentioning West Dublin region needing more services, but haven't detailed them or how they would be different from what is being offered by Maynooth/M3/Hazelhatch electrifications.

It is all very much crayon stuff.

Look, I agree this plan doesn't service every corner of the Dublin region. No plan could. We need about three different new tunnel lines. But we have to start somewhere and this plan is a great starting point IMO.

I'm hoping after it's success, we will have public appetite for a lot more and end up buidling DART Underground, a North East to South West line, etc.

IE 222

bk wrote: »

It is being considered, driverless HFV is one of the three options being considered.

Metros carry vast quantities of people every day in cities like Barcelona, Copenhagen, etc.

We really don't need the extra expense and trouble of a heavy rail system.

BTW 8 carriage DARTs were a nasty fix for the fact that they couldn't go with the preferred option of increasing the frequency of DART. The extra length of DARTs is one the the things that makes the Dart Underground tunnel so expensive.

High capacity, high frequency, HFV, 90m driverless trams your really biting into the bait here.

Trains carry just as much if not more.

Light rail hasn't exactly proven itself over the last few months. What trouble will heavy rail give.

8 car Darts reduce the number of train movements needed. It will supply the same if not more than 2 or 3 trams. Your been ober optimistic thinking driverless 90m HFV will be delivered. Recalculate your capacity issues with 60m LFV Driver cab trams.

IE 222

bk wrote: »

No you haven't all you have said is a version of Dart Underground with a few more stations (and thus more costly) and some totally dreamt up heavy rail alignment from the Northern Line to Swords, the Airport and on to Glasnevin, which is totally indirect, goes nowhere and I couldn't see hardly anyone using.

You keep mentioning West Dublin region needing more services, but haven't detailed them or how they would be different from what is being offered by Maynooth/M3/Hazelhatch electrifications.

It is all very much crayon stuff.

Look, I agree this plan doesn't service every corner of the Dublin region. No plan could. We need about three different new tunnel lines. But we have to start somewhere and this plan is a great starting point IMO.

I'm hoping after it's success, we will have public appetite for a lot more and end up buidling DART Underground, a North East to South West line, etc.

Indirect for some opening the system to others. Hardly anyone use it. It serves the same areas with additional connections.

Gave you a detail list yesterday regarding west Dublin. You continually fail to realise adding electric wires above them lines on its own will have little to no effect as they will still just run direct to the city centre as they already do. You struggle to look beyond what is written in the NTA report and acted and talk as if nothing exist west of Metro line.

bk

IE 222 wrote: »

High capacity, high frequency, HFV, 90m driverless trams your really biting into the bait here.

Trains carry just as much if not more.

And yet they don't here, little old Luas carries more then the entire Irish Rail commuter network!

IE 222 wrote: »

Light rail hasn't exactly proven itself over the last few months. What trouble will heavy rail give.

Metro is not light rail. And Luas has more then proven itself, carries more people then Irish Rail and the people of Dublin love it, most popular public transport. 98% approval rate.

IE 222 wrote: »

8 car Darts reduce the number of train movements needed. It will supply the same if not more than 2 or 3 trams. Your been ober optimistic thinking driverless 90m HFV will be delivered. Recalculate your capacity issues with 60m LFV Driver cab trams.

Reduced train movements, those less frequency, which means passengers wait longer at train stations and causes increased commute times. This wis why people aren't crazy about DARTs and prefer high frequency Luas.

Even with 60m LFV, it is still double the capacity of Luas, which would make it more then double the number of people DART actually carries per day.