NTA's 3bn Underground Metro Plan Unveiled

bk

IE 222 wrote: »

The map is the same rail lines just upgraded to Dart. How are you failing to see that. It new rail lines as in new rail lines in new areas thats required not upgrade works.

You mean like the new rail line from Swords to the City Center, serving the airport, etc.

As for just existing rail lines upgraded to DART. That is all the DU project was ever about. It never actually offered any new lines. Just upgrade in capacity to the existing lines, which this new Whitworth Road plan can also do.

IE 222

bk wrote: »

Yeah just like the almost €200 million spent on upgrading the DART platforms to take 8 carriage DARTs or the €120 million currently being spent on the cross city signalling project to enable 10 minute DARTs or the billion or so that will be spent in the next year on all new rolloing stock for Irish Rail :rolleyes:


Core, high frequency, high capacity routes into the city feed by feeder buses and park and rides.

How it is done all over Europe!

All of which is required. All Luas needs is longer trams or doubling up of current trams. 60m low floor Metro trams are not going to offer a drastic increase in capacity. Luas hasn't failed it just needs more capacity. That doesnt mean we need to throw a whole new system into it instead providing rail services into areas with no capacity.

Right but its moving away from ramming everything into the city centre. Where as Metro is destination city centre for anyone who doesn't live along the line.

Sandyford\Leopardstown is a massive commercial hub with a serious traffic\transport problem. I think this doesn't go far enough, it should be underground all the way to Sandyford and the Luas should be kept as a separate system competing to keep prices down.

It should also be used to take the Luas cross city section out of commission. It has been a total and utter failure and needs to be shut down. Bring the luas as far as Stephens green like it used to be and to Parnell from the northside, have an underground walkway under the green to he metro stop and a link up station at Parnell.

bebeman

VonZan wrote: »

This is largely due to Irish Rail being unwilling to reduce fares further along the 'so-called short hop zone'.

.

Hope most posters around here know by now DB/IE/BE/LUAS dont set the fares, the NTA set the fares.

IE 222

bk wrote: »

You mean like the new rail line from Swords to the City Center, serving the airport, etc.

As for just existing rail lines upgraded to DART. That is all the DU project was ever about. It never actually offered any new lines. Just upgrade in capacity to the existing lines, which this new Whitworth Road plan can also do.

Yeah again can you point me to were Ive suggested the line between Swords and City is not new. What I said if you care to listen is that other than the black line between the City Centre and Swords the rest is current infrastructure on that map. Yes it shows it will upgrade the lines but its a bit more than upgrades thats require at this point.

Yeah as I said yesterday just like MN DU was planned in the late 90s early 00s and likely require a review in its routing just like NM has although DU does connect with every other rail link within the country and both Luas lines.

If you want to keep things on the cheap, using current rail infrastructure will still offer more.

The opening of PPT can allow tunnelling focus on other areas that would benefit from the addition of Dart. A tunnel built between Malahide and Boombridge which will still serve most purposed Metro stops.

Electrify PPT, instead of original DU along with M3 Parkway and Hazlehatch would benefit a much wider community. Not only will it connect every rail and Luas line in the country to the Airport North Dublin commuters can travel to the city centre in either direction. it will also provide an orbital route around North Dublin instead of sending everyone to the city centre.

Luas can still get its €100m upgrade if required and actually make use of the recent upgrade it just received.

Dickerty

Deleted User wrote: »

Sandyford\Leopardstown is a massive commercial hub with a serious traffic\transport problem. I think this doesn't go far enough, it should be underground all the way to Sandyford and the Luas should be kept as a separate system competing to keep prices down.

It should also be used to take the Luas cross city section out of commission. It has been a total and utter failure and needs to be shut down. Bring the luas as far as Stephens green like it used to be and to Parnell from the northside, have an underground walkway under the green to he metro stop and a link up station at Parnell.

It's the underground portion that is massively expensive, and a big unknown in terms of delays. So they are obviously trying to keep that to a minimum.

I live in Glasnevin near Ballymun Road. The only public transport is buses, which have been substantially cut back in recent years. Same for Santry, Whitehall, Finglas, Charlestown area, Coolock, Beaumont. No Luas for us, no DART. So this can't come soon enough. My kids will be teenagers/college age, so they should benefit greatly!

Dickerty

Dickerty wrote: »

It's the underground portion that is massively expensive, and a big unknown in terms of delays. So they are obviously trying to keep that to a minimum.

There's no use doing it if it's not going to be done right. This will share the luas route, so we will have an "underground" that has intersections with roads and traffic lights. It defeats the whole purpose. Oh but it goes underground! It's pointless if it's not done right.

bk

IE 222 wrote: »

Electrify PPT, instead of original DU along with M3 Parkway and Hazlehatch would benefit a much wider community.

Hello are you reading this?!

That is exactly what is being planned with this. For the fifth time:

- Electrification of Maynooth/M3 Parkway as far as Connolly/Docklands
- Electrification of Hazelhatch to Connolly/Docklands via PPT tunnel
- Big new interchange station at Whitworth between the above two lines and Metro Link.

All serving that wider community of West Dublin.

Seriously I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand?

tomwaits48

boards.ie full of transport experts as usual, I see.

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

There's no use doing it if it's not going to be done right. This will share the luas route, so we will have an "underground" that has intersections with roads and traffic lights. It defeats the whole purpose. Oh but it goes underground! It's pointless if it's not done right.

It won't be sharing the Luas route. It will completely replace Luas as far as Sandyford.

They are also planning to close all the crossings along the route and go for full segregation. This is all detailed in the reports on the MetroLink site. There are lots of detailed plans there on how the road closure will go, pedestrian overpass bridges at the stations, etc.

AAAAAAAAA

bk wrote: »

They are also planning to close all the crossings along the route and go for full segregation. This is all detailed in the reports on the MetroLink site. There are lots of detailed plans there on how the road closure will go, pedestrian overpass bridges at the stations, etc.

correct me if i'm wrong but the only segregation that is required is stillorgan station, one rail/road junction in total (elevating the rail in this area), all the other station and alignment works are simply platform reconfiguration

Dickerty

bk wrote: »

It won't be sharing the Luas route. It will completely replace Luas as far as Sandyford.

They are also planning to close all the crossings along the route and go for full segregation. This is all detailed in the reports on the MetroLink site. There are lots of detailed plans there on how the road closure will go, pedestrian overpass bridges at the stations, etc.

Hmm, it's almost as if the Commuting and Transport Mod knows what he's talking about...

Ireland trains

Will Irish rail electrify some lines into Heuston station and maby have 2 DARTs an hour to Hazelhatch and then they can accelerate the Portlaiose service with its first stop being Hazelhatch

bk

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

correct me if i'm wrong but the only segregation that is required is stillorgan station, one rail/road junction in total (elevating the rail in this area), all the other station and alignment works are simply platform reconfiguration

Yes, that is the major one. Though closures of the junctions at Dunville Avenue and Alexandra College too. And the Tie-in will likely effect Dartmouth Road and Northbrook Road too.

If they go with high floor, driverless trains, they will also need to put pedestrian overpass and lifts at each station too.

It is all detailed on the reports on the MetroLink website.

MGWR

IE 222 wrote: »

What else did you expect. Its the NTA, which is made up of nothing more than a few office folk looking at how to make the project cheap and attractive. It would be better bore the southern half of the tunnel to Harolds cross or Crumlin than joining with the Luas which will slow down the Metro.

Not that it's a good idea for the Harcourt Street line to be Luas anyhow. But indeed, more destinations served by rail per se is a must, and removing parallel bus service once new railway lines come online has to stop as well.

bk

Ireland trains wrote: »

Will Irish rail electrify some lines into Heuston station and maby have 2 DARTs an hour to Hazelhatch and then they can accelerate the Portlaiose service with its first stop being Hazelhatch

Yes, that seems to be part of the larger plan, the 2 Billion Irish Rail Dart Expansion side of things.

Hazelhatch to Hueston Electrified, "new station" at Hueston West, continuing into the PPT tunnel, new station at Cabra and then on to a new station at Whitworth Road/Glasnevin where you have an interchange with the Metro and an electrified Maynooth/M3 line and then on to Connolly/Docklands.

bk

BTW I should stress, there are lots of incredibly detailed plans on the MetroLink website. However these are based on very detailed studies. They could well change given public consultation process and what goes forward to ABP might be slightly different.

However I don't think they will greatly change. Each study looks at two or three different options that are usually slight variants, so I'd expect there wouldn't be any massive changes. Just one of the variants with tweaks, etc.

BTW those documents are VERY interesting reading for any one interested in this sort of stuff.

Idbatterim

are there any images of the current proposed metrolink plan and the new dart stops / stations etc?

LuckyLloyd

I am a big proponent of leveraging existing infrastructure where possible. This Metrolink announcement intends to leverage the capabilities of the existing LUAS line and create a link to existing commuter rail services. It offers bang for our buck - particularly in terms of the cost of the Charlemont to Sandyford section and the increase in capacity offered; and also the connecting train station in Glasnevin that will help wring every last drop from mooted improvements to commuter rail in lieu of full implementation of Dart Underground.

I share the cynicism of those who have seen these announcements wrecked upon the rocks of politics before, but we have to cross our fingers that the economy will hold long enough for it to get underway and the absence of any ongoing infrastructure work like the LUAS allow no cover for politicians to hide behind.

We will always want more, and no plan of this nature is ever perfect. But the Dublin landscape after this is built will be forever changed.

bk

Idbatterim wrote: »

are there any images of the current proposed metrolink plan and the new dart stops / stations etc?

Lots of images on the detailed plans on the MetroLink site. The only Dart stations shown are the ones at Whitworth Road and Tara St.

IE 222

bk wrote: »

Hello are you reading this?!

That is exactly what is being planned with this. For the fifth time:

- Electrification of Maynooth/M3 Parkway as far as Connolly/Docklands
- Electrification of Hazelhatch to Connolly/Docklands via PPT tunnel
- Big new interchange station at Whitworth between the above two lines and Metro Link.

All serving that wider community of West Dublin.

Seriously I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand?

Really don't understand why you keel posting the same statements as if I haven't read it.

Fully aware this is in the pipe line pal but its a separate project. What your failing to realise is this wont be done till a later date and links into a Metro that offers Swords, City Centre (were the train is heading either way) or Sandyford (they can already do this at Broombridge) as connections.

So again posting the same thing still doesn't change the fact that the only difference people using an electrified Dart train as opposed to a Diesel train on the same line will only gain a link to Swords via Metro. The reason I added it to my suggestion is that with the other changes id make to MN and DU this would make a massive difference which opened up the rail network as whole.

Im going to leave it there as it pointless us discussing this further as you refuse to read my post correctly. I've already pointed out to you numerous times were you add your own twist to my posts such as your Belfast references ect.

bk

IE 222 wrote: »

Fully aware this is in the pipe line pal but its a separate project. What your failing to realise is this wont be done till a later date and links into a Metro that offers Swords, City Centre (were the train is heading either way) or Sandyford (they can already do this at Broombridge) as connections.

I'm fully aware it is a separate project, I've said that a few times.

But the 2 Billion DART Expansion project needs to play well with the MetroLink project. Just like how the original DU project did with Metro North.

Irish Rail will be seemingly ordering the new trains later this year and the detailed plans for Whitworth Road and Tara St will need to be submitted to ABP next year as part of the Rail order.

Both projects are part of the NDP for the next 10 years and both are designed to complement one another. After all they have moved the entire Metro line further east in order to better integrate with the the DART Expansion plan.

IE 222

MGWR wrote: »

Not that it's a good idea for the Harcourt Street line to be Luas anyhow. But indeed, more destinations served by rail per se is a must, and removing parallel bus service once new railway lines come online has to stop as well.

48A is a fine example of this. We wont see any new rail lines in the next 25 years. Their more interested in glorified upgrade projects wasting the Millions already spent on these lines.

bk

IE 222 wrote: »

48A is a fine example of this. We wont see any new rail lines in the next 25 years. Their more interested in glorified upgrade projects wasting the Millions already spent on these lines.

Except for the new rail line from Swords to Stephens Green :rolleyes:

IE 222

bk wrote: »

I'm fully aware it is a separate project, I've said that a few times.

But the 2 Billion DART Expansion project needs to play well with the MetroLink project. Just like how the original DU project did with Metro North.

Irish Rail will be seemingly ordering the new trains later this year and the detailed plans for Whitworth Road and Tara St will need to be submitted to ABP next year as part of the Rail order.

Both projects are part of the NDP for the next 10 years and both are designed to complement one another. After all they have moved the entire Metro line further east in order to better integrate with the the DART Expansion plan.

Its not Dart expansion that is key its heavy rail expansion thats most important. Running and changing to Dart on the acual railway expansion just makes more operational sense as it opens up the network completely providing more flexibility.

We can add all the Dart trains in the world to the current network but it will have little effect. The call is to create orbital routes avoiding the city centre. A large percentage of people using the M50 don't go anywhere near the city hence why planners are looking at building an outer ring road. Metro is doing the complete opposite.

Yes a rail link to the Airport is vital and long over due but Metro is restricted it what it provides to the overall city as it doesn't support anything west of O'Connell Bridge. I know you argue Whitworth Rd offers rail connections but these will only serve a small few even with the railway upgraded to Dart. It still only going to bring people to the city and a less than 5% of users per train to the Airport.

magicbastarder

i know this is pie in the sky stuff, but it'd be great if (where possible) a cycle lane could be provided alongside any lines being developed above ground. one along the green line would have been a boon for cyclists.

IE 222

bk wrote: »

Except for the new rail line from Swords to Stephens Green :rolleyes:

Relax there Anne, your eyes must killing you at this stage.

If I need to clearify the obvious then yeah with with expection of "Metro" we wont see any new "heavy rail lines" in the next 25 years.

Dickerty

As a fellow cyclist, I hear you, but I don't trust the average 'person on a bike' (i.e. not a proper cyclist) to not get killed on week 1...

AlmightyCushion

magicbastarder wrote: »

i know this is pie in the sky stuff, but it'd be great if (where possible) a cycle lane could be provided alongside any lines being developed above ground. one along the green line would have been a boon for cyclists.

Apart from the green line upgrade, is much of it going to be above ground? I thought most of it was going to be either underground or on raised platforms.

AlmightyCushion

IE 222 wrote: »

Relax there Anne, your eyes must killing you at this stage.

If I need to clearify the obvious then yeah with with expection of "Metro" we wont see any new "heavy rail lines" in the next 25 years.

When was the last time we seen a new heavy rail line in Dublin? I think once this gets done and people see the benefit, there will be talk of a second metro link. It might not be delivered in the next 25 years but it could be soon after that.

The 2 luas lines opened in 2004, and the cross city opened 13 years later with the biggest financial crash the country had ever seen happening in the middle. Okay, cross city was cheaper than a second metro line would but I still see it happening.