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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP
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No one was going to sue the doctors, the family weren't, the hospital were not going to sue their doctors. The woman was dead. It was a stunt to do what they did.
They used this woman and her family as footballs to kick around in a bid to make the 8th amendment look retarded. It took the courts to tell them to end their nonsense/ "futile exercise".
Robert as your back on could you reply to my post it's number 788, it's in relation to this thanks0 -
DubInMeath wrote: »Robert this is the article that you I belive are quoting from
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/judgment-on-brain-dead-pregnant-woman-wins-award-1.2606884
No where in the article does the judge say that doctors kept the woman on life support to cause
“unimaginable distress in a futile exercise which commenced only because of fears held by treating medical specialists of potential legal consequences”.
as you quoted.
In fact using the same small quote I can only find articles similar to the above.
Can you please post a link to the article where as you said " the court said what the doctors did was a futile exercise causing unimaginable distress. Given the woman was dead, it was a stunt, and it was disgracefule." is available.In its judgment, the court found the prospect for the unborn is “nothing but distress and death”.
The court believed Miss P would “have fought long and hard to bring her unborn child to term”, but that intention fell well short of any expression of a view her predicament and that of her unborn child should continue.
Authorise withdrawal
Based on the evidence, the court found the woman suffered brain stem death on December 3rd and it was in the best interests of the unborn child to authorise, at the discretion of the medical team treating the woman, withdrawal of the somatic treatment.
The court said the unborn in this jurisdiction has the constitutional guarantee of a right to life and a necessary part of vindicating that right was to inquire into the practicality and utility of continuing life support measures.
It accepted this unborn child was facing into a “perfect storm” from which it had no realistic prospect of emerging alive. It was influenced by any consideration that, if the unborn child was born alive, it would be impaired to a greater or lesser degree, it stressed.
The court also believed maintenance of somatic support would deprive the mother of dignity in death and subject her family to “unimaginable distress in a futile exercise which commenced only because of fears held by treating medical specialists of potential legal consequences”.
It added it was not impressed by arguments Miss P had no right to dignity because she had been declared brain dead.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/judgment-on-brain-dead-pregnant-woman-wins-award-1.2606884
The court even said it was not impressed with the arguments made that the woman did not have a right to dignity because she was brain dead which the doctors had been responsible for, it was a stunt as she was dead.0 -
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/judgment-on-brain-dead-pregnant-woman-wins-award-1.2606884
The court even said it was not impressed with the arguments made that the woman did not have a right to dignity because she was brain dead which the doctors had been responsible for, it was a stunt as she was dead.
No Robert its an example of how women are treated even in death by the current law of the land via the 8th amendment and why it should be repealed.0 -
seeing as its mostly marxists and communists who want abortion i would be in favour for that
abort as many communists as possible
right wing people won't be looking for abortion0 -
I’ll quote this in case people in favour of the eighth missed this over night.To the people in favour of keeping thh eighth amendment.
Your partner/sister/best friend/daughter/granddaughter are expecting. Week 18, the anomaly scan reveals a number of issues and an amnio a few days later reveals a fatal abnormality.
They do their research and consult with a number of doctors and are told that the pregnancy is very unlikely to go full term. If it does, the baby that is born is going to die with in one or two days, maybe a week, and after a bit of research, it's clear that they will be incredibly distressing days - heart attacks, strokes, apnea, constant agonizing pain and discomfort before eventually turning blue and dying. In addition, the mother's life is at risk for a serious complication if the pregnancy continues into the third trimester.
What's the plan?
Again, your daughter/wife/girlfriend/sister/granddaughter/friend is in this position. What does she do?0 -
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Undividual wrote: »What would/should we do if it turned out that some people in those communities chose to opt for sex-specific abortion? Or you can avoid addressing that issue again, if you want.
Again, you are missing the point.
The right to regulate her body is a womans right, you have no right to demand she provides you with her reasoning behind her decisions, unless of course you believe women are second class citizens who require to be dominated and controlled by men.0 -
So a group of doctors and hospital administrators and legal staff got together and concocted a scheme to keep Ms P on life support, not because they feared the legal situation but so that they could use her to eventually get the 8th amendment repealed. And these of course are the same Irish doctors, who on the previous thread were argued as a group to be massively against performing abortions. Dont you see how crazy that seems?DubInMeath wrote: »Robert this is the article that you I belive are quoting from
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/judgment-on-brain-dead-pregnant-woman-wins-award-1.2606884
No where in the article does the judge say that doctors kept the woman on life support to cause
“unimaginable distress in a futile exercise which commenced only because of fears held by treating medical specialists of potential legal consequences”.
as you quoted.
In fact using the same small quote I can only find articles similar to the above.
Can you please post a link to the article where as you said " the court said what the doctors did was a futile exercise causing unimaginable distress. Given the woman was dead, it was a stunt, and it was disgracefule." is available.In its judgment, the court found the prospect for the unborn is “nothing but distress and death”.
The court believed Miss P would “have fought long and hard to bring her unborn child to term”, but that intention fell well short of any expression of a view her predicament and that of her unborn child should continue.
Authorise withdrawal
Based on the evidence, the court found the woman suffered brain stem death on December 3rd and it was in the best interests of the unborn child to authorise, at the discretion of the medical team treating the woman, withdrawal of the somatic treatment.
The court said the unborn in this jurisdiction has the constitutional guarantee of a right to life and a necessary part of vindicating that right was to inquire into the practicality and utility of continuing life support measures.
It accepted this unborn child was facing into a “perfect storm” from which it had no realistic prospect of emerging alive. It was influenced by any consideration that, if the unborn child was born alive, it would be impaired to a greater or lesser degree, it stressed.
The court also believed maintenance of somatic support would deprive the mother of dignity in death and subject her family to “unimaginable distress in a futile exercise which commenced only because of fears held by treating medical specialists of potential legal consequences”.
It added it was not impressed by arguments Miss P had no right to dignity because she had been declared brain dead.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/judgment-on-brain-dead-pregnant-woman-wins-award-1.2606884
The court even said it was not impressed with the arguments made that the woman did not have a right to dignity because she was brain dead which the doctors had been responsible for, it was a stunt as she was dead.
I have noticed that a lot of people who are pro-life have a very dim view of the motivations of others....doctors perform horrific acts as a "stunt", women will just callously terminate the unborn without a thought or for the most trivial reasons if we dont control them, abortionists are cackling with glee with all the money they will make....it must be very difficult headspace to be in that constant state of mistrust. Do you generally find in daily life that people have poor motivations and are not to be trusted Robert? Genuine question.0 -
Madscientist30 wrote: »I have noticed that a lot of people who are pro-life have a very dim view of the motivations of others....doctors perform horrific acts as a "stunt", women will just callously terminate the unborn without a thought or for the most trivial reasons if we dont control them, abortionists are cackling with glee with all the money they will make....it must be very difficult headspace to be in that constant state of mistrust. Do you generally find in daily life that people have poor motivations and are not to be trusted Robert? Genuine question.
This is literally so so true.0 -
This is literally so so true.
Like totally, I mean I don't even....
Seriously? I'm sure the profile of people who are against the notion of abortion is pretty varied. I'm sure my own demographic is pretty different from most...
It's like another thread where I saw someone lambasting people who were anti abortion as being stupid religious people...as if the concept of being nonreligious and against abortion wasn't a possibility...
Its a cheap intellectually dishonest circle jerk.0 -
Maybe there will be a population imbalance if we include all your strawmen.So having abortion here instead of nex door will make everyone abort girl fetuses because two different countries elsewhere have a) a massively patriarchal culture that we will for some unknown reason, adopt immediately or b) because of the government one child policy that Ireland for some unknown reason will implement.
And this will cause a population imbalance with Ireland having more men than women and with not enough women to go around... men will turn gay??
Seriously??
I never said this would happen immediately. Nor that Ireland would enact a one child policy. What I did say was that I don't think it will be an Irish problem, but that it could an issue if people from outside of Ireland decide to do this. I am not arguing against repealing the 8th. Anyone whose opinion would be swayed by potential homosexual activity has their own problems to deal with.
Why I keep having to refer to my own posts, I don't know.0 -
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Experience_day wrote: »Like totally, I mean I don't even....
Seriously? I'm sure the profile of people who are against the notion of abortion is pretty varied. I'm sure my own demographic is pretty different from most...
It's like another thread where I saw someone lambasting people who were anti abortion as being stupid religious people...as if the concept of being nonreligious and against abortion wasn't a possibility...
Its a cheap intellectually dishonest circle jerk.
I can't make sense of the beginning of your post so I'll set that aside.
As for the rest of it, read through this thread and the last and you'll see that Madscientist's post is very accurate.0 -
Undividual wrote: »Maybe there will be a population imbalance if we include all your strawmen.
I never said this would happen immediately. Nor that Ireland would enact a one child policy. What I did say was that I don't think it will be an Irish problem, but that it could an issue if people from outside of Ireland decide to do this. I am not arguing against repealing the 8th. Anyone whose opinion would be swayed by potential homosexual activity has their own problems to deal with.
Why I keep having to refer to my own posts, I don't know.
As already said, sex organs are not developed enough to determine the sex of the foetus until long after the proposed 12 weeks.0 -
This post has been deleted.0
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I have no doubt pro life people come from all walks of life. I believe that women and their families are intelligent, caring and rational enough to weigh the moral and ethical issues involved in their own crisis pregnancy situation and respond appropriately, because they have the best interests of all involved at heart. Do you believe that is the case?Experience_day wrote: »This is literally so so true.
Like totally, I mean I don't even....
Seriously? I'm sure the profile of people who are against the notion of abortion is pretty varied. I'm sure my own demographic is pretty different from most...
It's like another thread where I saw someone lambasting people who were anti abortion as being stupid religious people...as if the concept of being nonreligious and against abortion wasn't a possibility...
Its a cheap intellectually dishonest circle jerk.0 -
If I follow the argument correctly it goes:
1. Limited abortion is made legal, which this poster suggests will cause...
2. The Irish birthrate to drop significantly, which will lead to an uncontrolled...
3. Spike in immigration from India and China, to the extent that...
4. Dubious cultural norms from said countries will become standard in Ireland, causing...
5. Gender-selective abortion to be normalized, leading to...
6. A significant gender imbalance in the Irish population in 20-40 years, which means that...
7. Irish men will have to turn gay in order to find someone to have sex with?
I'm honestly amazed that you managed to stuff so many far-right talking points into so little space - we have anti-abortion, anti-immigration and gay-panicking all in one insane little story!0 -
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/judgment-on-brain-dead-pregnant-woman-wins-award-1.2606884
The court even said it was not impressed with the arguments made that the woman did not have a right to dignity because she was brain dead which the doctors had been responsible for, it was a stunt as she was dead.
Simple question that requires only a yes or no answer. If the 8th Amendment was not in force, would this event have happened? A simple yes or no will suffice, though I suspect I will get neither.
MrP0 -
Undividual wrote: »Maybe there will be a population imbalance if we include all your strawmen.
I never said this would happen immediately. Nor that Ireland would enact a one child policy. What I did say was that I don't think it will be an Irish problem, but that it could an issue if people from outside of Ireland decide to do this. I am not arguing against repealing the 8th. Anyone whose opinion would be swayed by potential homosexual activity has their own problems to deal with.
Why I keep having to refer to my own posts, I don't know.
If you don’t think it will be an Irish problem then why did you bring it up?0 -
No one was going to sue the doctors, the family weren't, the hospital were not going to sue their doctors. The woman was dead. It was a stunt to do what they did.
They used this woman and her family as footballs to kick around in a bid to make the 8th amendment look retarded. It took the courts to tell them to end their nonsense/ "futile exercise".
That's a pretty disgusting accusation. What kind of kick do you get about making up conspiracy theories like that? There was no bid to make the 8th Amendment look "retarded" as you call it (it's a disgusting word in any context), the 8th is unfit for purpose in our current healthcare system and cases like Miss P certainly highlight it's failings.
I was pregnant when that case was going through the courts and it terrified me. The fact that if I was brain dead and my body was disintegrating, that an unviable fetus would have precedence over my own body and my next of kin would have no choice but to watch me rot over a prolonged period of time. Absolutely terrifying scenario.
But to a pro birther like yourself it's just a stunt by the medical team. Mind blowing.0 -
No one was going to sue the doctors, the family weren't, the hospital were not going to sue their doctors. The woman was dead. It was a stunt to do what they did.
They used this woman and her family as footballs to kick around in a bid to make the 8th amendment look retarded. It took the courts to tell them to end their nonsense/ "futile exercise".
The eighth amendment is retarded, it basically allowed them to do this, no matter what their motivations were, if there was no eighth amendment the family could easily have stopped this happening.
They hadn't a chance of stopping it as it was if they chose to, the eighth denied them that right.0 -
If I follow the argument correctly it goes:
1. Limited abortion is made legal, which this poster suggests will cause...
2. The Irish birthrate to drop significantly, which will lead to an uncontrolled...
3. Spike in immigration from India and China, to the extent that...
4. Dubious cultural norms from said countries will become standard in Ireland, causing...
5. Gender-selective abortion to be normalized, leading to...
6. A significant gender imbalance in the Irish population in 20-40 years, which means that...
7. Irish men will have to turn gay in order to find someone to have sex with?
I'm honestly amazed that you managed to stuff so many far-right talking points into so little space - we have anti-abortion, anti-immigration and gay-panicking all in one insane little story!
And don’t forget the poster making these claims is ‘undecided’.0 -
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When are they going to announce the date for the referendum?? This has been dragging on and on for months. I want to book a holiday. Am I right in thinking that you can’t apply for a postal vote if you’re on holiday, you just won’t be able to vote at all if you’re away?0
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When are they going to announce the date for the referendum?? This has been dragging on and on for months. I want to book a holiday. Am I right in thinking that you can’t apply for a postal vote if you’re on holiday, you just won’t be able to vote at all if you’re away?
The date probably won't be confirmed until early next month. At this point, chances are it'll be held on the of 25th May.
And, nope, you can't vote if you're away on holidays. Postal voting is only available in certain circumstances, and being on holidays isn't one of them.0 -
If I follow the argument correctly it goes:
1. Limited abortion is made legal, which this poster suggests will cause...
2. The Irish birthrate to drop significantly, which will lead to an uncontrolled...
3. Spike in immigration from India and China, to the extent that...
4. Dubious cultural norms from said countries will become standard in Ireland, causing...
5. Gender-selective abortion to be normalized, leading to...
6. A significant gender imbalance in the Irish population in 20-40 years, which means that...
7. Irish men will have to turn gay in order to find someone to have sex with?
I'm honestly amazed that you managed to stuff so many far-right talking points into so little space - we have anti-abortion, anti-immigration and gay-panicking all in one insane little story!
You were doing so well until number 2.
To clarify:
1. Limited abortion is made legal, which this poster suggests will cause...
2. The Irish birthrate to drop significantly, (Don't think I said the birthrate would drop significantly, only that it is already below sustainable levels) which will lead to an uncontrolled...
3. Spike in immigration from India and China (Don't think I said immigration would increase), to the extent that...
4. Dubious cultural norms from said countries will become standard in Ireland (Definitely didn't say this. I said that it could be practiced by people with ideas that don't match ours), causing...
5. Gender-selective abortion to be normalized (Definitely didn't say this. Seems you just ascribed this statement to me based on who you think I am), leading to...
6. A significant gender imbalance in the Irish population in 20-40 years (Definitely didn't say this. I said that I would prefer we looked at any potential problems of repealing the 8th in addition to any benefits), which means that...
7. Irish men will have to turn gay in order to find someone to have sex with (Definitely didn't say this. I said that is a social outcome of China's One Child Policy in addition to China's preference for male offspring)?
I'm becoming pretty sickened by peoples' disingenuousness to be honest. I wonder if you are even open to having your opinion on anything changed or even challenged. I think you are undermining yourself by claiming I am alt-right, as you should be able to refute extreme views with logic/evidence.0 -
Because Chinese and Indian people live here and may not share my views on sex selection.Undividual wrote: »Maybe there will be a population imbalance if we include all your strawmen.
I never said this would happen immediately. Nor that Ireland would enact a one child policy. What I did say was that I don't think it will be an Irish problem, but that it could an issue if people from outside of Ireland decide to do this. I am not arguing against repealing the 8th. Anyone whose opinion would be swayed by potential homosexual activity has their own problems to deal with.
Why I keep having to refer to my own posts, I don't know.
If you don’t think it will be an Irish problem then why did you bring it up?0 -
Undividual wrote: »You were doing so well until number 2.
To clarify:
1. Limited abortion is made legal, which this poster suggests will cause...
2. The Irish birthrate to drop significantly, (Don't think I said the birthrate would drop significantly, only that it is already below sustainable levels) which will lead to an uncontrolled...
3. Spike in immigration from India and China (Don't think I said immigration would increase), to the extent that...
4. Dubious cultural norms from said countries will become standard in Ireland (Definitely didn't say this. I said that it could be practiced by people with ideas that don't match ours), causing...
5. Gender-selective abortion to be normalized (Definitely didn't say this. Seems you just ascribed this statement to me based on who you think I am), leading to...
6. A significant gender imbalance in the Irish population in 20-40 years (Definitely didn't say this. I said that I would prefer we looked at any potential problems of repealing the 8th in addition to any benefits), which means that...
7. Irish men will have to turn gay in order to find someone to have sex with (Definitely didn't say this. I said that is a social outcome of China's One Child Policy in addition to China's preference for male offspring)?
I'm becoming pretty sickened by peoples' disingenuousness to be honest. I wonder if you are even open to having your opinion on anything changed or even challenged. I think you are undermining yourself by claiming I am alt-right, as you should be able to refute extreme views with logic/evidence.
1.) I was mocking your (frankly insane) original post and your rebuttal of my open mockery is to correct the details?
2.) Going by the highlighted sentence you're now admitting to having extreme views. (two can play at sematics btw)0 -
Undividual wrote: »Because Chinese and Indian people live here and may not share my views on sex selection.
what chinese and indian people do is irrelevant. this is a discussion on repeal of the 8th amendment.0 -
But if you don’t think any of that is likely to happen in Ireland what was your purpose for bringing up India, China, homosexuality, and the anti-female bias?Undividual wrote: »
I'm becoming pretty sickened by peoples' disingenuousness to be honest. I wonder if you are even open to having your opinion on anything changed or even challenged. I think you are undermining yourself by claiming I am alt-right, as you should be able to refute extreme views with logic/evidence.0 -
Undividual wrote: »You were doing so well until number 2.
To clarify:
1. Limited abortion is made legal, which this poster suggests will cause...
2. The Irish birthrate to drop significantly, (Don't think I said the birthrate would drop significantly, only that it is already below sustainable levels) which will lead to an uncontrolled...
3. Spike in immigration from India and China (Don't think I said immigration would increase), to the extent that...
4. Dubious cultural norms from said countries will become standard in Ireland (Definitely didn't say this. I said that it could be practiced by people with ideas that don't match ours), causing...
5. Gender-selective abortion to be normalized (Definitely didn't say this. Seems you just ascribed this statement to me based on who you think I am), leading to...
6. A significant gender imbalance in the Irish population in 20-40 years (Definitely didn't say this. I said that I would prefer we looked at any potential problems of repealing the 8th in addition to any benefits), which means that...
7. Irish men will have to turn gay in order to find someone to have sex with (Definitely didn't say this. I said that is a social outcome of China's One Child Policy in addition to China's preference for male offspring)?
I'm becoming pretty sickened by peoples' disingenuousness to be honest. I wonder if you are even open to having your opinion on anything changed or even challenged. I think you are undermining yourself by claiming I am alt-right, as you should be able to refute extreme views with logic/evidence.
those with extreme views are immune to logic and evidence. Otherwise they wouldn't have extreme views. Mockery works best.0 -
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No one was going to sue the doctors, the family weren't, the hospital were not going to sue their doctors. The woman was dead. It was a stunt to do what they did.
They used this woman and her family as footballs to kick around in a bid to make the 8th amendment look retarded. It took the courts to tell them to end their nonsense/ "futile exercise".
Nobody mentioned suing anybody. Where did you get that idea? Any why?
You really are tripping over yourself to try to imply that the 8th had nothing to do with that case, when it was her doctors’ sworn testimony in court that the reason they did not withdraw life support was because of their uncertainty regarding the unborn’s right to life.
When the high court judges gave their ruling, they discussed in detail the 8th amendment and how it applied in this situation. Yet you maintain it was a stunt orchestrated by doctors from multiple hospitals, hospital legal departments, and presumably high court judges. And you expect people to take you seriously? You are either blind to the facts, or stupid, and I hope it is the latter. In case it is the former, and really hoping for your enlightenment, here is the transcript of the case, with some of the relevant parts quoted.
http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/09859e7a3f34669680256ef3004a27de/fb8a5c76857e08ce80257dcb003fd4e6?OpenDocument
“It is the view of the Court that, while the ordinary common understanding of what in context was involved in the referendum which led to the present wording of Article 40.3.3, particularly insofar as it mandates due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, was to protect the legal position created in Ireland by s. 58 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, the provision, in its plain and ordinary meaning may also be seen as acknowledging in simple terms the right to life of the unborn which the State, as far as practicable, shall by its laws defend and vindicate. This does not mean that the Court discounts or disregards the mother’s right to retain in death her dignity with proper respect for her autonomy with due regard to the grief and sorrow of her loved ones and their wishes. Such an approach has been the hallmark of civilised societies from the dawn of time. It is a deeply ingrained part of our humanity and may be seen as necessary both for those who have died and also for the sake of those who remain living and who must go on. The Court therefore is unimpressed with any suggestion that considerations of the dignity of the mother are not engaged once she has passed away.
However, when the mother who dies is bearing an unborn child at the time of her death, the rights of that child, who is living, and whose interests are not necessarily inimical to those just expressed, must prevail over the feelings of grief and respect for a mother who is no longer living.
The question then becomes one of how far the Court should go in terms of trying to vindicate that right in the particular circumstances which arise here.“0
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