The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Neyite · 19-03-2018 7:04pm

Undividual wrote: »

If that is the case, should we also accept the social issues that that could entail, as mentioned earlier? I am not sure of my opinion on abortion, but I am absolutely against gender specific abortion. I think it is detrimental to society.

Gender selection does not exist. You mean sex selection.

Here's the thing. We've had artificial reproduction assistance in this country for years and years now. And legislation specifically prohibits a couple -even for valid medical reasons- from choosing one sex of embryo over another.

So couples who really want to avoid that genetic disease that only manifests in males or females would go to clinics abroad to do sex selection IVF or go to the UK to procure an abortion.

So selecting gender is already 'here' - but in such tiny numbers you've probably never even known about it.

Even scans to determine if you are having a boy or a girl they stress that it's usually an educated guess. They can't guarantee that the baby will come out the sex that they appeared to be on the scan.

We aren't China. Or India. And if women were somehow to be forced into termination in Ireland because of a patriarchal culture forcing them to, then tackle the patriarchy that perpetuates it. It's ridiculous to remove a massive part of maternity care just because we have literally a handful of people from a country living here who feel a girl is of less worth in their culture of origin.

19-03-2018 7:06pm

Undividual wrote: »

It's a fair question. My point is that it is through the intervention of many individuals that these imbalances occur over time. The Irish birth rate is below replacement levels, which means we will either shrink as a country over time or more people will immigrate. As such, alternative views on gender selection may become popular.

For example, if I was raised in a country which had 55% men to 45% women, I may not have the chance to procreate. If I was raised in a country which had 50% men and 50% women, I would have a better chance. If I liked women slightly more than I liked men, eventually competition for women would become so intense that I would be unable to attract one and may turn to other men. It is well documented in psychological literature that a lot of men (who do not identify as homosexual) turn to homosexuality in male dominated environments, such as prison.

I follow the Kinsey-ian view of sexuality btw, in that most people are probably repressing some homosexuality.

Ireland has the highest birth rate in the eu, & homosexuality has nothing to do with abortion.

mzungu · 19-03-2018 7:17pm

Undividual wrote: »

I don't follow your logic at all. What do you think happens with the female fetuses/babies? Enacting the one child policy involved mass abortions, mass birth control and mass infanticide. I assume by "boys took precedence over girls" you mean that they weren't killed?

Actually, a lot would have been born and then shipped off to orphanages where they died of things like malnutrition due to the horrid conditions. A lot of others were adopted by western families. Like I said, the disparity was not due to abortion, it was down the authoritarian measures of the regime in charge that forced it to happen. Those measures have now been relaxed in China, hence things will eventually bounce back to a happy medium.

Mr. CooL ICE · 19-03-2018 7:24pm

pleas advice wrote: »

any post sating 'it should be the woman's choice' won't be questioned, will be accepted as self-evidentially true, without question.

Why don't you question it? It is a discussion forum, after all.

pleas advice wrote: »

any post stating that the fetus should have some rights, or maybe not some rights, maybe not even one, not even half a right, that the fetus should have a right to life unless the mothers life is at risk, and then the mothers rights absolutely override the fetuses, will be jumped on, and the poster made feel their views are not welcome, which was my point

To me, this sounds like discussion. But it sounds like from your perspective, your opinion is in the minority.

Don't know what can be done about that. Only way around this I can see would be to introduce poster quotas, i.e. only X amount of posters from one side of this debate are allowed post until the same post from the other side. And that will never happen.

Edward M · 19-03-2018 8:24pm

Just looking at this on another thread, the end of the report goes to how SF will deal with the legislation put forward after repeal by having their ard fheis put back till june.
I can't understand why, I think they are dodging the issue until they see the end result of the referendum.
They could easily hold their add fheis as normal and agree with the alternative of the oireachtas making the decision on what comes after repeal before the referendum, I think their current position is a bit cowardly myself tbh.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0319/948563-sinn-fein-senator-suspended/

Soulsun · 19-03-2018 8:38pm

With regards to the date of the referendum, is it there an possibility of it not being on the 25th May?

Edward M · 19-03-2018 8:54pm

Soulsun wrote: »

With regards to the date of the referendum, is it there an possibility of it not being on the 25th May?

Its not set in stone as yet, but it seems that's the preferred date. It could be changed of course.

Ismisejack · 19-03-2018 8:59pm

robarmstrong wrote: »

Thanks for answering that question finally Jack.

So you've destroyed any credibility you have in this argument with such a ridiculous and outdated belief.

I hope your partner or your future daughters won't be subjected your medieval mindset.

You were waiting to say that. Well there is nothing progressive about abortion, it is killing, simple as that. Allowing the Irish government power regards abortion laws on the event the eighth is repealed is frightening!! That means no referendum would be needed to allow for abortion on demand. There’s nothing progressive or proud about that

SusieBlue · 19-03-2018 9:01pm

Ismisejack wrote: »

You were waiting to say that. Well there is nothing progressive about abortion, it is killing, simple as that. Allowing the Irish government power regards abortion laws on the event the eighth is repealed is frightening!! That means no referendum would be needed to allow for abortion on demand. There’s nothing progressive or proud about that

I’m sure the families of the many women who have lost their lives or have had their health significantly impacted due to the 8th would wholeheartedly disagree with you on that, Jack.

Undividual · 19-03-2018 9:11pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Ireland has the highest birth rate in the eu, & homosexuality has nothing to do with abortion.

Ireland does have the highest birth rate in Europe and it is below replacement levels. I don't want to argue the homosexuality point. As already stated, it is simply an example of a potential issue.

MilesMorales1 · 19-03-2018 9:13pm

I've just had pro life campaigners at my door, literally putting their foot in the door when I tried to close it! Accusing me of complicity in 'infanticide' whatever that is?

david75 · 19-03-2018 9:15pm

Undividual wrote: »

Ireland does have the highest birth rate in Europe and it is below replacement levels. I don't want to argue the homosexuality point. As already stated, it is simply an example of a potential issue.

Sooo...more abortions means more gay people.

*potentially.

I’d love you to back that statement up with some evidence.

Ave Sodalis · 19-03-2018 9:15pm

Ismisejack wrote: »

You were waiting to say that. Well there is nothing progressive about abortion, it is killing, simple as that. Allowing the Irish government power regards abortion laws on the event the eighth is repealed is frightening!! That means no referendum would be needed to allow for abortion on demand. There’s nothing progressive or proud about that

I dare you to say that to Susan Hodger's family. I dare you to stand in front of them and tell them that the 8th was a good idea. I dare you to stand in front of her husband, and although he had to listen to her screams as she died, you tell him that repealing the 8th is frightening. You tell her children that there's nothing proud about repealing the 8th.

Madscientist30 · 19-03-2018 9:18pm

Undividual wrote: »

Madscientist30;106483205

Ahh the FGM thing again, funnily enough this is a very similar point in similar language to a previous poster that was banned....hmmmm....and here you are another newbie?

I'll check out what he said. I was only using that as an example of the migration of unwanted cultural practices. If the boards guys want to ban me, fair enough though I don't think I've overstepped any lines. Its funny to me you'd assume two matching online opinions means that it must be one individual, evading detection. I'm not quite that sad.

I didnt say it was a "him"

david75 · 19-03-2018 9:23pm

Madscientist30 wrote: »

Undividual wrote: »

I'll check out what he said. I was only using that as an example of the migration of unwanted cultural practices. If the boards guys want to ban me, fair enough though I don't think I've overstepped any lines. Its funny to me you'd assume two matching online opinions means that it must be one individual, evading detection. I'm not quite that sad.

I didnt say it was a "him"

Haha. What a coincidence

Undividual · 19-03-2018 9:25pm

mzungu wrote: »

Actually, a lot would have been born and then shipped off to orphanages where they died of things like malnutrition due to the horrid conditions. A lot of others were adopted by western families. Like I said, the disparity was not due to abortion, it was down the authoritarian measures of the regime in charge that forced it to happen. Those measures have now been relaxed in China, hence things will eventually bounce back to a happy medium.

Can you give me a source for this? This does not reflect what I have read on the issue.

The Schuster institute wrote that China had placed approx 80,000 children into international adoption as of 2011. This does not even represent .01% of the population of China. Infanticide, abandonment/wilful neglect and abortion seem to be the other major factors to account for the remaining disparity.

Sex-selective abortions are cited in the below article:

whatsonweibo.com/ china-now-335-million-men-women/

Waterford_sham · 19-03-2018 9:26pm

This whole debate is such a clusterfcuk IRL with different people spouting ****e at ya over it.... I'm thinking just spoiling my vote and just draw a smiley face on it

I've seen articles exposing both sides as having been lieing so far on posters/with facts etc and I've better things to do with me time than keep up with everything and fcuking hate being lied to

david75 · 19-03-2018 9:27pm

What’s the pro life position on cloning?

They seem very fond of it here anyways

crustybla · 19-03-2018 9:28pm

MilesMorales1 wrote: »

I've just had pro life campaigners at my door, literally putting their foot in the door when I tried to close it! Accusing me of complicity in 'infanticide' whatever that is?

I had one hand my youngster a leaflet with the usual images printed on it. Needless to say she won't call to my door again.:mad:

Madscientist30 · 19-03-2018 9:30pm

david75 wrote: »

Madscientist30 wrote: »

Undividual wrote: »

I'll check out what he said. I was only using that as an example of the migration of unwanted cultural practices. If the boards guys want to ban me, fair enough though I don't think I've overstepped any lines. Its funny to me you'd assume two matching online opinions means that it must be one individual, evading detection. I'm not quite that sad.

I didnt say it was a "him"

Haha. What a coincidence

It is isnt it

crustybla · 19-03-2018 9:32pm

Waterford_sham wrote: »

This whole debate is such a clusterfcuk IRL with different people spouting ****e at ya over it.... I'm thinking just spoiling my vote and just draw a smiley face on it

I've seen articles exposing both sides as having been lieing so far on posters/with facts etc and I've better things to do with me time than keep up with everything and fcuking hate being lied to

Ah don't spoil your vote. Do your research and have a good think and do whatever you feel is right on the matter.:)

robarmstrong · 19-03-2018 9:37pm

Ismisejack wrote: »

You were waiting to say that. Well there is nothing progressive about abortion, it is killing, simple as that. Allowing the Irish government power regards abortion laws on the event the eighth is repealed is frightening!! That means no referendum would be needed to allow for abortion on demand. There’s nothing progressive or proud about that

Nothing progressive about denying women the right to a choice over what they can do with their own bodies.

Was I waiting to say that? Yeah, but it was fun giving you the rope...

Oh and like a poster previously mentioned, go spout your spiel about how the 8th is so precious to Sheila Hodger's family. I'd actually pay money to see someone of your mindset stand in front of that whole family and watch what happens next.

Whoever keeps saying that pro-life posters are being shut down, that's nonsense, we're all for an intelligent debate, you just have to be intelligent about debating it.

Ken. · 19-03-2018 9:52pm

Mod-Ok guys and girls, ye've had yere fun. Any more calling people rereg's will be an automatic thread ban. It's deflecting from the topic at hand.

If you think someone is a rereg then report it. If they are still around then we've checked and all is ok.

FutureGuy · 19-03-2018 10:04pm

To the people in favour of keeping thh eighth amendment.

Your partner/sister/best friend/daughter/granddaughter are expecting. Week 18, the anomaly scan reveals a number of issues and an amnio a few days later reveals a fatal abnormality.

They do their research and consult with a number of doctors and are told that the pregnancy is very unlikely to go full term. If it does, the baby that is born is going to die with in one or two days, maybe a week, and after a bit of research, it's clear that they will be incredibly distressing days - heart attacks, strokes, apnea, constant agonizing pain and discomfort before eventually turning blue and dying. In addition, the mother's life is at risk for a serious complication if the pregnancy continues into the third trimester.

What's the plan?

mzungu · 19-03-2018 10:06pm

Undividual wrote: »

Can you give me a source for this? This does not reflect what I have read on the issue.

The Schuster institute wrote that China had placed approx 80,000 children into international adoption as of 2011. This does not even represent .01% of the population of China.

I am talking about in the years after the one child policy was implemented, not 2011. Things were winding down by 2011 and has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Yes, some were in orphanages, others adopted by western families, abortions took place, as did forced sterilisation of women. None of this means it would happen in Ireland. The 8th amendment has nothing to do with any of it.

The disparities in Chinese society can be directly attributed to the one child policy.

The sex ratios of a province are largely determined by the type of restriction placed upon the family, pointing to the conclusion that much of the imbalance in sex ratio in China can be attributed to the policy. Research by Junhong (2001) found that many parents are willing to pay to ensure that their child is male (especially if their first child is female), but will not do the same to ensure their child is female.[9] Likely, fear of the harsh monetary punishments of the One-Child Policy make ensuring a son’s birth a smart investment. Therefore, son’s cultural and economic importance to families and the large expenses associated with multiple children are primary factors leading to China’s disparate sex ratio.

Junhong, C (2001). "Prenatal Sex Determination and Sex-Selective Abortion in Rural Central China". Population and Development Review. 27 (2): 259–81

Undividual wrote: »

Infanticide, abandonment/wilful neglect and abortion seem to be the other major factors to account for the remaining disparity.

Sex-selective abortions are cited in the below article:

whatsonweibo.com/ china-now-335-million-men-women/

Thankfully we live in Ireland, so none of that is relevant. What happened in China has no significance here.

If you wish to get to the bottom of the reason for the disparity, you need to look no further the government policies and social attitudes of that period in Chinese history.

ProfessorPlum · 19-03-2018 10:28pm

RobertKK wrote: »

The family who wanted their family member to be allowed be dead and not what transpired.
The family had to go to the courts because someone did decide to use that woman.
It was her doctors who abused that woman and I would guess they are pro-choice and used her thinking they could make the 8th amendment look retarded and failed, when the courts decided it didn't apply.
It was a disgrace what that woman's medical team did to that family.
The father of that woman said he found the doctors decision to keep his dead daughter on life support “extremely distressful”.
One can only say it was a stunt give prochoice and repeal groups here and abroad were wrongly blaming the 8th amendment when it was doctors who chose to make an example of her and it took the courts to tell them what they were doing was really wrong.
I don't know anyone who thought what those doctors were doing was right, and one can only assume it was a stunt to wrongly highlight the 8th amendment, given they used it as an excuse for what they did, when the woman was already dead. They were a disgrace.

RobertKK wrote: »

On a separate note...
We had the state keep a dead woman alive because she was 16 weeks pregnant which was ridiculous and which looked like a stunt to blame the 8th amendment, and it took the courts to say that the 8th amendment never applied in that case, it was repeal people who tried to use it as a reason to make a point in my opinion, and failed as the woman was dead.

I know Im late replying to this, just catching up.
Robert, you might want to read the judgment in that case. The case wasn't ruled against because the woman was dead. There was no stunt by 'prochoice' doctors. The doctors in the case immediately consulted the hospital legal department, because of the provisions of the 8th, for guidance. The hospital lawyers were unable to decide and so it went to the courts. No pro life/pro choice conspiracy.
And if a similar case happened again, there's every likelihood we could end up in the courts again, because the 8th demands that we vindicate the unborn's right to life.

erica74 · 19-03-2018 10:49pm

Waterford_sham wrote: »

This whole debate is such a clusterfcuk IRL with different people spouting ****e at ya over it.... I'm thinking just spoiling my vote and just draw a smiley face on it

I've seen articles exposing both sides as having been lieing so far on posters/with facts etc and I've better things to do with me time than keep up with everything and fcuking hate being lied to

I'm not sure what lies you have heard the pro choice side telling nor what lies would be beneficial to the pro choice side.

The simple fact is that every woman deserves the right to choose for herself how to proceed with her pregnancy and should have access to all of the options here in Ireland.

RobertKK · 19-03-2018 11:16pm

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

I know Im late replying to this, just catching up.
Robert, you might want to read the judgment in that case. The case wasn't ruled against because the woman was dead. There was no stunt by 'prochoice' doctors. The doctors in the case immediately consulted the hospital legal department, because of the provisions of the 8th, for guidance. The hospital lawyers were unable to decide and so it went to the courts. No pro life/pro choice conspiracy.
And if a similar case happened again, there's every likelihood we could end up in the courts again, because the 8th demands that we vindicate the unborn's right to life.

The court said what the doctors did was a futile exercise causing unimaginable distress. Given the woman was dead, it was a stunt, and it was disgraceful.

“unimaginable distress in a futile exercise which commenced only because of fears held by treating medical specialists of potential legal consequences”.

david75 · 19-03-2018 11:23pm

RobertKK wrote: »

The court said what the doctors did was a futile exercise causing unimaginable distress. Given the woman was dead, it was a stunt, and it was disgraceful.

So how was it a stunt by repeal as you stated earlier?
How was it a stunt by doctors?
Their hands were literally tied legally by the 8th amendment.

That isn’t a stunt. That’s what happened.

Undividual · 19-03-2018 11:34pm

david75 wrote: »

Sooo...more abortions means more gay people.

*potentially.

I’d love you to back that statement up with some evidence.

I assume you're misunderstanding my point and not misrepresenting my statements. My point in relation to increased homosexuality activity was already outlined. Re-read my posts for clarification.

"There is much anecdotal evidence about increases in trafficking of women both for the sex industry and marriage, though it is impossible to say whether gender imbalance is a contributory factor in this. It has also been suggested that a shortage of women may lead to a rise in homosexual behaviour. The suggestion is not that the shortage of women will produce homosexuals, but rather that increasing tolerance towards homosexuality, together with the surplus of males, may lead to large numbers of covert homosexuals openly expressing their sexuality"

rss. onlinelibrary.wiley. com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1740-9713.2009.00335.x

The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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