The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

reubenreuben

horseburger wrote: »

I did not state that. I said I have a concern that, as I understand it, that it cannot be stated with certainty how long a life will last after birth, if the pregnancy continues.

The concern I have is that if an abortion is carried out, it will never be known how long a life will last.

What if the woman was raped? Should she be allowed to abort?

Yeah_Right

horseburger wrote: »

Would you not define life as being when conception takes place, or if not that, would you not argue that a life beings when the pregnancy is confirmed?

Is that not a reasonable interpretation of when life begins?

No. At both those stages it is still just potential life.

horseburger

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

I know this has been asked a million times but if this was true, why isn't a miscarriage manslaughter? Why isn't drinking when pregnant considering negligence. Why is travelling for an abortion allowed?

Is a miscarriage not, an unfortunate natural unavoidable occurrence?

This HSE item, below, states that:

"It is thought that most miscarriages are the result of random variations in the chromosomes of the baby. Chromosomes are genetic 'building blocks' that guide the development of a baby. If a baby has too many or not enough chromosomes, the pregnancy can end in miscarriage".

https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/m/miscarriage/

Sofiztikated

horseburger wrote: »

I did not state that. I said I have a concern that, as I understand it, that it cannot be stated with certainty how long a life will last after birth, if the pregnancy continues.

The concern I have is that if an abortion is carried out, it will never be known how long a life will last.

There's no guarantees that a pregnancy will result in a live human being either.

horseburger

Yeah_Right wrote: »

No. At both those stages it is still just potential life.

Just the same as a 20 year old man is a potential 40 year old man, or a 60 year old man?

Isn't it all part of our human life cycle, no matter if it is human development before birth and after birth?

NuMarvel

horseburger wrote: »

I did not state that.

Then maybe you'll be so good as to state what your position is on the issue of when a woman should be able access abortion. Because while you've replied to that question a number of times, you certainly haven't answered it.

Ave Sodalis

horseburger wrote: »

Is a miscarriage not, an unfortunate natural unavoidable occurrence?

This HSE item, below, states that:

"It is thought that most miscarriages are the result of random variations in the chromosomes of the baby. Chromosomes are genetic 'building blocks' that guide the development of a baby. If a baby has too many or not enough chromosomes, the pregnancy can end in miscarriage".

https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/m/miscarriage/

Even if the miscarriage was caused by drink etc.? It's not an abortion if it was accidental.

Do you mind answering the rest of those questions? And the post before that?

kylith

horseburger wrote: »

Would you not define life as being when conception takes place, or if not that, would you not argue that a life beings when the pregnancy is confirmed?

Is that not a reasonable interpretation of when life begins?

Personally I don’t see it as an individual person until it is capable of surviving independently.

NuMarvel

horseburger wrote: »

When do you think that human life begins?

A question more relevant to the thread topic is when do you think the right to life should be begin? Because at present, it's not conception or fertilisation.

horseburger

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

In biological terms I 100% agree with when YOU say it begins.

In terms of philosophy, ethics, morality, rights, personhood and so forth I do not know 100% when it begins but I do not think it begins until the faculty of consciousness and sentience comes on line.

At 12 weeks not only is it not online, it has not even been BUILT yet. This is human it is not a Human. Please do learn the difference for us. And stop feigning ignorance of something I have explained to you four times in as many posts.

Isn't the main issue that no matter at what stage an abortion takes place, it is fundamentally the ending of a human life, where someone else has decided to end another human life?

I often hear the argument that it is more acceptable to carry out an abortion when pain is not felt.

It was asked by participants in the Citizens Assembly.

Why is there a concern about pain being felt, when the abortion procedure results in the ending of life.

Ending life is much more severe than inflicting pain.

yrreg0850

Conspectus wrote: »

Link to old thread https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106464600#post106464600


The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion



If only 44% of the assembly voted for repeal, why are we being asked to repeal?
I think regardless of the vote, the Govt wanted to repeal and, used Enda's quango as an excuse.

kylith

horseburger wrote: »

Just the same as a 20 year old man is a potential 40 year old man, or a 60 year old man?

Isn't it all part of our human life cycle, no matter if it is human development before birth and after birth?

But a 25 year old man is not a 65 year old man and therefore does not have the right to a state pension. A 2 year old is not a 20 year old and therefore cannot purchase alcohol. A 12 week fetus is not a grown woman, and should not have the same rights as one.

BabysCoffee

I read some of the reasons why donations are being made to Together for Yes to my mother who is not internet savy (and also had forgotten her glasses when I met her for coffee today).

This was the one that I broke down in tears to as I read aloud:

Ave Sodalis

yrreg0850 wrote: »

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion



If only 44% of the assembly voted for repeal, why are we being asked to repeal?
I think regardless of the vote, the Govt wanted to repeal and, used Enda's quango as an excuse.

It is being replaced.

“Provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancies.”

horseburger

kylith wrote: »

But a 25 year old man is not a 65 year old man and therefore does not have the right to a state pension. A 2 year old is not a 20 year old and therefore cannot purchase alcohol. A 12 week fetus is not a grown woman, and should not have the same rights as one.

Isn't it still all part of the human life cycle and human development?

Who decides which stage of human life is less important, or less worthy of sustaining, than another stage of human life?

Ave Sodalis

horseburger wrote: »

Isn't it still all part of the human life cycle and human development?

Who decides which stage of human life is less important, or less worthy of sustaining, than another stage of human life?

Can you answer my questions? You seem to have missed them.

blanch152

horseburger wrote: »

Is a miscarriage not, an unfortunate natural unavoidable occurrence?

This HSE item, below, states that:

"It is thought that most miscarriages are the result of random variations in the chromosomes of the baby. Chromosomes are genetic 'building blocks' that guide the development of a baby. If a baby has too many or not enough chromosomes, the pregnancy can end in miscarriage".

https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/m/miscarriage/

Only applies to most miscarriages, even then isn't it the fault of the woman's body for not properly conceiving the child? If your view of the world is correct, any woman miscarrying should be charged with manslaughter and any woman that travels abroad for an abortion should be charged with murder upon return.

horseburger

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Can you answer my questions? You seem to have missed them.

What question did you ask?

blanch152

horseburger wrote: »

Isn't it still all part of the human life cycle and human development?

Who decides which stage of human life is less important, or less worthy of sustaining, than another stage of human life?

The same people that decide on the age of consent, the age for qualification for a pension, the age of voting etc.

SusieBlue

I'd like you know who you'd save if you were in front of a burning fertility clinic and could only save a zygote in a petri dish, or a toddler.
Who would you pick and why?

horseburger

blanch152 wrote: »

Only applies to most miscarriages, even then isn't it the fault of the woman's body for not properly conceiving the child? If your view of the world is correct, any woman miscarrying should be charged with manslaughter and any woman that travels abroad for an abortion should be charged with murder upon return.

I did not say anyone should be charged with miscarriage as you well know.

I was responding to someone - who asked why women aren't charged with miscarriage - by including a link to an item that details that miscarriages are a natural unfortunate occurrence.

kylith

horseburger wrote: »

Isn't it still all part of the human life cycle and human development?

Who decides which stage of human life is less important, or less worthy of sustaining, than another stage of human life?

So was that miscarriage I had a few years ago, but no-one gets worked up about that.

Repealing the 8th allows people to make their own decision about what stage of development they feel worthy of sustaining.

swampgas

horseburger wrote: »

Isn't it still all part of the human life cycle and human development?

Who decides which stage of human life is less important, or less worthy of sustaining, than another stage of human life?

Surely the woman who is pregnant should have the biggest say? After all, she will endure the pregnancy, and will presumably be expected to raise the resulting baby/child afterwards.

If a woman isn't ready to be a mother, or isn't ready to be a mother again, or right now, surely she is based placed to make that decision? After all, it affects her more than anyone else.

What's your alternative to a woman getting to choose? Enforced pregnancy?

Do you really think it is okay to FORCE women to continue a pregnancy that they really don't want?

Can you imagine telling your sister or daughter or niece that her crisis pregnancy is not hers to deal with - the rest of the country want to decide for her instead?

horseburger

blanch152 wrote: »

The same people that decide on the age of consent, the age for qualification for a pension, the age of voting etc.

What's your view on the issue?

horseburger

swampgas wrote: »

Surely the woman who is pregnant should have the biggest say? After all, she will endure the pregnancy, and will presumably be expected to raise the resulting baby/child afterwards.

If a woman isn't ready to be a mother, or isn't ready to be a mother again, or right now, surely she is based placed to make that decision? After all, it affects here more than anyone else.

What's your alternative to a woman getting to choose? Enforced pregnancy?

Do you really think it is okay to FORCE women to continue a pregnancy that they really don't want?

Can you imagine telling your sister or daughter or niece that her crisis pregnancy is not hers to deal with - the rest of the country want to decide for her instead?

I never said anything of what you are implying.

seamus

horseburger wrote: »

I did not say anyone should be charged with miscarriage as you well know.

I was responding to someone - who asked why women aren't charged with miscarriage - by including a link to an item that details that miscarriages are a natural unfortunate occurrence.

To use your own words:
"Who decides which stage of human life is less important than another stage of human life?"

So if feel that every "stage of human life" should be cherished equally, then if you're being intellectually honest, you would say that every miscarriage should be investigated and documented, just like every sudden death is.

The coroner should be involved in interviewing and examining all women who have miscarried.

Right?

Or are you saying that a miscarriage is of less importance than the sudden death of a six-month-old?

reubenreuben

horseburger wrote: »

I never said anything of what you are implying.

So, what are you saying then?

horseburger

seamus wrote: »

To use your own words:
"Who decides which stage of human life is less important than another stage of human life?"

So if feel that every "stage of human life" should be cherished equally, then if you're being intellectually honest, you would say that every miscarriage should be investigated and documented, just like every sudden death is.

The coroner should be involved in interviewing and examining all women who have miscarried.

Right?

Or are you saying that a miscarriage is of less importance than the sudden death of a six-month-old?

I never made any judgement about cases of miscarriage. I included a link to an item that details that it is an unfortunate natural occurrence.

Madscientist30

horseburger wrote: »

SusieBlue wrote: »

Do we seek the consent or opinion of the unborn on any other matter? Vaginal birth or c-section? Breast or bottle?
How do you propose we obtain such consent?

I'll give you a hint. Its because the unborn are not a born citizen. The woman in the scenario, is a born citizen.
And her needs, wants, and wishes should always trump that of a >12 week old fetus unless she CHOOSES otherwise.

It is human, no matter if it is born or unborn. That is the central issue of the abortion discussion.

In what other circumstances is it argued that it is justifiable to deliberately end human life, where that human life has not given consent.

So then do you consider abortion to meet the definition of murder?

horseburger

reubenreuben wrote: »

So, what are you saying then?

I am asking how people can describe what is growing in the womb, as anything other than human life.