The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

horseburger · 13-04-2018 04:19PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

And I never said it was. My question was about in what circumstances you think abortion should be allowed. Are there any circumstances you think abortion should be allowed, and if so, what are they?

I would have a concern with abortion in certain cases, where the prognosis is not good, in the sense that one can never be sure how long a child will live, upon birth.

My understanding is that if the pregnancy is continued, where a diagnosis of a fatal foetal abnormality/life limiting condition has been confirmed, that it can never be said with certainty, how long the child will live.

The Oireachtas Committee recommendations are more wide ranging than certain circumstances.

I thought Peadar Tóibín spoke sincerely on this issue, where, in the Dáil, he mentioned a case where a child, given a diagnosis of Trisomy 13 before birth, lived much longer than predicted by doctors.

horseburger · 13-04-2018 04:21PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the exact question you asked has already been answered. it may be human but it is not A human. it lacks many of the qualities that define humanity. it does not, and should not, have the same rights as an actual living human.

Yeah_Right wrote: »

FYP

In order to claim that it only becomes human when it is born, you have to work on the basis that it is something other than human before birth, even though it has been created by two humans, one male and one female.

How can you suggest it isn't human, and living, before birth?

horseburger · 13-04-2018 04:25PM

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Due to the impact it has on the rights of someone who is living, breathing and feeling.

Doesn't a born child also impact on the rights of someone who is living, breathing and feeling?

kylith · 13-04-2018 04:27PM

horseburger wrote: »

I would have a concern with abortion in certain cases, where the prognosis is not good, in the sense that one can never be sure how long a child will live, upon birth.

My understanding is that if the pregnancy is continued, where a diagnosis of a fatal foetal abnormality/life limiting condition has been confirmed, that it can never be said with certainty, how long the child will live.

The Oireachtas Committee recommendations are more wide ranging than certain circumstances.

I thought Peadar Tóibín spoke sincerely on this issue, where, in the Dáil, he mentioned a case where a child, given a diagnosis of Trisomy 13 before birth, lived much longer than predicted by doctors.

I’m sorry, it’s not clear from your post. You think women should have to carry to term pregnancies because the baby might live a bit longer than initially thought? What do you think should be the cutoff point for watching your doomed child die in infancy? And shouldn’t the choice to take that chance be the parents’?

kylith · 13-04-2018 04:28PM

horseburger wrote: »

Doesn't a born child also impact on the rights of someone who is living, breathing and feeling?

Again: can be cared for by anyone. Before birth only the pregnant woman. Why should she be forced to do so?

horseburger · 13-04-2018 04:31PM

kylith wrote: »

I’m sorry, it’s not clear from your post. You think women should have to carry to term pregnancies because the baby might live a bit longer than initially thought? What do you think should be the cutoff point for watching your doomed child die in infancy?

I didn't say that they should be forced to carry pregnancies.

I said that I have a concern about the issue, that from what I understand, that it can't be stated with certainty how long an unborn human life, in those circumstances, will live upon birth.

What I am asking is how people that advocate for abortion, can describe what's growing during a pregnancy, as anything other than human.

Ave Sodalis · 13-04-2018 04:32PM

horseburger wrote: »

Doesn't a born child also impact on the rights of someone who is living, breathing and feeling?

No

nozzferrahhtoo · 13-04-2018 04:33PM

horseburger wrote: »

In order to claim that it only becomes human when it is born, you have to work on the basis that it is something other than human before birth

No. you would not.

Rather what you would have to do is point out that although we have one word "Human" it has different meanings and different implications depending on the context.

The issue here is one of language. We unfortunately have one word that means many things. And your entire rhetoric is on blurring that fact and acting like it means one thing all the time. This is not an honest move for you to make.

The difference between Human (taxonomy, biology) and Human (personhood, philosophy) is massive. And while you are pretending the abortion debate is about the former, it is actually about the latter.

horseburger wrote: »

What I am asking is how people that advocate for abortion, can describe what's growing during a pregnancy, as anything other than human.

They aren't. They are saying it is not a PERSON. And "Human" when not being used in terms of biological taxonomy is another valid term for "person".

If it helps try and use capitals to distinguish the two as in human (biology) and Human (person).

The fetus at 12 weeks is human it is not Human.

I do not doubt your intellect (yet) so I suspect if you do not see the difference it is not because you can not, but because you refuse to.

horseburger · 13-04-2018 04:34PM

kylith wrote: »

Again: can be cared for by anyone. Before birth only the pregnant woman. Why should she be forced to do so?

What's the difference in the child being cared for by someone else, if the first argument given was that the mother shouldn't have the burden of caring for it before birth?

In that argument, is the child not still a burden on someone, even though its not the mother.

The argument was that the child is a burden, not on whom it is a burden.

blanch152 · 13-04-2018 04:35PM

horseburger wrote: »

In order to claim that it only becomes human when it is born, you have to work on the basis that it is something other than human before birth, even though it has been created by two humans, one male and one female.

How can you suggest it isn't human, and living, before birth?

horseburger wrote: »

What I am asking is how people that advocate for abortion, can describe what's growing during a pregnancy, as anything other than human.

How do you define human?

How do you define separate and distinct?

This is important, otherwise you could end up defining toenail clippings as human.

horseburger · 13-04-2018 04:36PM

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

No

How so?

Doesn't raising children alter the everyday routine and financial circumstances of the people raising them, no mater if its the biological parents or anyone else?

horseburger · 13-04-2018 04:37PM

blanch152 wrote: »

How do you define human?

How do you define separate and distinct?

This is important, otherwise you could end up defining toenail clippings as human.

I would define a human life, as a life that is created by two humans, one female and one male.

Are you going to suggest otherwise?

blanch152 · 13-04-2018 04:38PM

horseburger wrote: »

I am referring to the issue that the recommendation of the Oireachtas Committee is that abortion would be available without restriction for 12 weeks.

It isn't just abortion in certain circumstances that is recommended.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/eighthamendmentoftheconstitution/Report-of-the-Joint-Committee-on-the-Eighth-Amendment-web-version.pdf

http://www.thejournal.ie/committee-citizens-assembly-3749589-Dec2017/

Your post is self-contradictory.

Unrestricted abortion is abortion on demand up until birth. One you put a limit - 12 weeks - on abortion, then by definition you only have abortion in certain circumstances.

kylith · 13-04-2018 04:38PM

horseburger wrote: »

I didn't say that they should be forced to carry pregnancies.

I said that I have a concern about the issue, that from what I understand, that it can't be stated with certainty how long an unborn human life, in those circumstances, will live upon birth.

Well, what is your concern?

kylith · 13-04-2018 04:40PM

horseburger wrote: »

What's the difference in the child being cared for by someone else, if the first argument given was that the mother shouldn't have the burden of caring for it before birth?

In that argument, is the child not still a burden on someone, even though its not the mother.

The argument was that the child is a burden, not on whom it is a burden.

The argument is that pregnancy is uncomfortable at best and life threatening at worst, and that childbirth is fcking agony. Why should a woman be forced to do that if she is not willing?

Further to that, a woman may not feel physically, emotionally, or financially able to care for that child after birth. Why should she be forced to?

Yeah_Right · 13-04-2018 04:41PM

horseburger wrote: »

I would define a human life, as a life that is created by two humans, one female and one male.

Are you going to suggest otherwise?

Can you define life? When does it begin? When does it end?

horseburger · 13-04-2018 04:41PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Your post is self-contradictory.

Unrestricted abortion is abortion on demand up until birth. One you put a limit - 12 weeks - on abortion, then by definition you only have abortion in certain circumstances.

The difference is that the 12 week limit recommendation is not just cases of life limiting conditions.

My understanding is that the 12 week without restriction recommendation includes cases where the child will be aborted in situations where it would otherwise grow and develop healthily and be born healthy.

blanch152 · 13-04-2018 04:41PM

horseburger wrote: »

I would define a human life, as a life that is created by two humans, one female and one male.

Are you going to suggest otherwise?

With all due respect, that is something from a primary school textbook.

https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/you-won-t-believe-what-baby-making-science-could-soon-n714411

Children born as a result of in vitro gametogenesis would not be human as per your definition, yet my toenail clippings might be?

blanch152 · 13-04-2018 04:43PM

horseburger wrote: »

The difference is that the 12 week limit recommendation is not just cases of life limiting conditions.

My understanding is that the 12 week without restriction recommendation includes cases where the child will be aborted in situations where it would otherwise grow and develop healthily and be born healthily.

Once it is limited to 12 weeks, you are imposing abortion only in certain circumstances.

One of the most popular lies among the pro-life campaigners is that Repeal the 8th will introduce unrestricted abortion on demand, it simply isn't true.

horseburger · 13-04-2018 04:44PM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Can you define life? When does it begin? When does it end?

Would you not define life as being when conception takes place, or if not that, would you not argue that a life beings when the pregnancy is confirmed?

Is that not a reasonable interpretation of when life begins?

nozzferrahhtoo · 13-04-2018 04:45PM

horseburger wrote: »

I would define a human life, as a life that is created by two humans, one female and one male.

A definition that is only valid if you were having a conversation about biology. And even then it would not be wholly valid given that some conceptions now are inclusive of THREE parents.

Thankfully ACTUAL scientists and ACTUAL biologists are not going to you for definitions.

The issue is however it is not a biological definition of Human Life that is required when discussing philosophy, morality, ethics, rights, humanity and personhood. If you claim you would give the same definition THERE..... then you are either lying to us or not at all informed about the subjects in question.

horseburger · 13-04-2018 04:47PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Once it is limited to 12 weeks, you are imposing abortion only in certain circumstances.

One of the most popular lies among the pro-life campaigners is that Repeal the 8th will introduce unrestricted abortion on demand, it simply isn't true.

Unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks.

Unrestricted suggests that it will not just include certain cases.

Ave Sodalis · 13-04-2018 04:47PM

horseburger wrote: »

How so?

Doesn't raising children alter the everyday routine and financial circumstances of the people raising them, no mater if its the biological parents or anyone else?

Alters their routine and financial circumstances, yes. They aren't rights though. As it stands, the 8th means a woman is not given the right to be free from suffering. The woman is not given the right to life, despite what the 2013 Act says. The woman is not given the right to medical treatment. They are not given the right to bodily autonomy.

Heck, so long as the 8th is in place, even the foetus and subsequent baby are okay to suffer and die a preventable and painful death because, regardless of whether or not you agree with abortion for FFA, the 8th prevents it.

The funny (not really) thing is is that if the child needs an organ donation or a blood donation to save its life after it's born, you cannot take the organ or blood from the mother without her permission. Even if the baby will die without it.

Are you telling me you'd be quite happy to stand in front of Susan Hodger's family, in front of Savita Halappanavar's family, in front of Anne Lovett's family... and tell them that their family member would have lost rights when the baby was born anyway so don't worry about them.

blanch152 · 13-04-2018 04:48PM

horseburger wrote: »

Would you not define life as being when conception takes place, or if not that, would you not argue that a life beings when the pregnancy is confirmed?

Is that not a reasonable interpretation of when life begins?

Why conception? Why not implantation?

Why when the pregnancy is confirmed? Why not when the foetus shows the ability for independent movement or independent brain activity or when it is born?

blanch152 · 13-04-2018 04:50PM

horseburger wrote: »

Unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks.

Unrestricted suggests that it will not just include certain cases.

Up to twelve weeks means that in certain circumstances - over twelve weeks - abortion will not be permitted.

NuMarvel · 13-04-2018 04:50PM

horseburger wrote: »

I would have a concern with abortion in certain cases, where the prognosis is not good, in the sense that one can never be sure how long a child will live, upon birth.

My understanding is that if the pregnancy is continued, where a diagnosis of a fatal foetal abnormality/life limiting condition has been confirmed, that it can never be said with certainty, how long the child will live.

So I take it from this you wouldn't agree with abortion in cases of FFA. Grand, we're getting somewhere now.

Following on from that, are there instances where would agree a woman should be able to access abortion? Do you believe a woman should never be able to access abortion?

horseburger · 13-04-2018 04:51PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

A definition that is only valid if you were having a conversation about biology. And even then it would not be wholly valid given that some conceptions now are inclusive of THREE parents.

Thankfully ACTUAL scientists and ACTUAL biologists are not going to you for definitions.

The issue is however it is not a biological definition of Human Life that is required when discussing philosophy, morality, ethics, rights, humanity and personhood. If you claim you would give the same definition THERE..... then you are either lying to us or not at all informed about the subjects in question.

When do you think that human life begins?

This item below includes the following opening paragraph:

"ABSTRACT: The predominance of human biological research confirms that human life begins at conception—fertilization. At fertilization, the human being emerges as a whole, genetically distinct, individuated zygotic living human organism, a member of the species Homo sapiens, needing only the proper environment in order to grow and develop. The difference between the individual in its adult stage and in its zygotic stage is one of form, not nature. This statement focuses on the scientific evidence of when an individual human life begins.".

https://www.acpeds.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/3.21.17-When-Human-Life-Begins.pdf

https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/life-issues/when-human-life-begins

horseburger · 13-04-2018 04:55PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

So I take it from this you wouldn't agree with abortion in cases of FFA. Grand, we're getting somewhere now.

Following on from that, are there instances where would agree a woman should be able to access abortion? Do you believe a woman should never be able to access abortion?

I did not state that. I said I have a concern that, as I understand it, that it cannot be stated with certainty how long a life will last after birth, if the pregnancy continues.

The concern I have is that if an abortion is carried out, it will never be known how long a life will last.

Ave Sodalis · 13-04-2018 04:55PM

horseburger wrote: »

When do you think that human life begins?

This item below includes the following opening paragraph:

"ABSTRACT: The predominance of human biological research confirms that human life begins at conception—fertilization. At fertilization, the human being emerges as a whole, genetically distinct, individuated zygotic living human organism, a member of the species Homo sapiens, needing only the proper environment in order to grow and develop. The difference between the individual in its adult stage and in its zygotic stage is one of form, not nature. This statement focuses on the scientific evidence of when an individual human life begins.".

https://www.acpeds.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/3.21.17-When-Human-Life-Begins.pdf

https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/life-issues/when-human-life-begins

I know this has been asked a million times but if this was true, why isn't a miscarriage manslaughter? Why isn't drinking when pregnant considering negligence. Why is travelling for an abortion allowed?

nozzferrahhtoo · 13-04-2018 04:55PM

horseburger wrote: »

When do you think that human life begins?

In biological terms I 100% agree with when YOU say it begins.

In terms of philosophy, ethics, morality, rights, personhood and so forth I do not know 100% when it begins but I do not think it begins until the faculty of consciousness and sentience comes on line.

At 12 weeks not only is it not online, it has not even been BUILT yet. This is human it is not a Human. Please do learn the difference for us. And stop feigning ignorance of something I have explained to you four times in as many posts.

The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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