The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Annasopra

garbo speaks wrote: »

These people donating money for those unsightly referendum posters are deluded. Surely there are other more worthwhile causes to donate your money to (donate to the Irish Cancer Society, ISPCA, etc.), but no, people love to latch on to a timely fad. Does donating your money for these posters mean anything? No. It's just a way for the loony lefties to feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

I think I might donate just to annoy people like you some more

bear1

garbo speaks wrote: »

These people donating money for those unsightly referendum posters are deluded. Surely there are other more worthwhile causes to donate your money to (donate to the Irish Cancer Society, ISPCA, etc.), but no, people love to latch on to a timely fad. Does donating your money for these posters mean anything? No. It's just a way for the loony lefties to feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Why does what people donate their money to matter to you?

Zubeneschamali

garbo speaks wrote: »

It's just a way for the loony lefties to feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Ah, spring is here with the mating call of the Referendum Loser.

gmisk

I chipped in.

To be honest this Referendum isnt one that is going to effect me directly, but I believe a woman should be allowed to choose (up until a point - 12 weeks sounds sensible enough to most medical people so its ok by me).

The No posters (and billboards) are horrendous and seem to be everywhere (that American and Iona money must be coming in handy) so hopefully this helps to balance things out a bit.

Ave Sodalis

garbo speaks wrote:

These people donating money for those unsightly referendum posters are deluded. Surely there are other more worthwhile causes to donate your money to (donate to the Irish Cancer Society, ISPCA, etc.), but no, people love to latch on to a timely fad. Does donating your money for these posters mean anything? No. It's just a way for the loony lefties to feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Do you donate your money to any of these causes? It's interesting how the "loony lefties" are more likely to campaign and fundraise for charities. You just so happen to be on a thread about a referendum and so if any donations is mentioned, it would be regarding the referendum. You can donate to more than one cause, you can care about more than one thing...

gmisk

Also I see pretty much all the same people saying No to the repeal as said No to the marriage referendum...so f#ck em!

B0jangles

Goodness me!

Grayson

Dole Scrounging Vegan Crossfitter wrote: »

Just paid for 5 posters there myself

I've been avoiding this thread for a while. Quite often it can be the same argument over and over again.


However i just popped back in, saw this post ans checked out what you were talking about.

And I've just paid for 5 posters too.

Grayson

B0jangles wrote: »

Goodness me!

I wish I'd thought of that

Frank Bullitt

Lashed in 20 quid myself.

I see John McGuirk is already questioning the legality of the donations, nothing new there.

gmisk

Gintonious wrote: »

Lashed in 20 quid myself.

I see John McGuirk is already questioning the legality of the donations, nothing new there.

Ah he would...sure the Iona institute (Is it still a charity?) gets hundreds of thousands in donations, not to mention the life institute....where is that dough coming from?

ohnonotgmail

B0jangles wrote: »

Goodness me!

Donated in the name of david quinn

ohnonotgmail

gmisk wrote: »

Ah he would...sure the Iona institute (Is it still a charity?) gets hundreds of thousands in donations, not to mention the life institute....where is that dough coming from?

i dont think it was ever a charity. it is registered as Lolek Ltd in the CRO..

gmisk

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i dont think it was ever a charity. it is registered as Lolek Ltd in the CRO..

This says otherwise
http://www.thejournal.ie/iona-institute-1826121-Dec2014/
Maybe that has changed?
But they still accept donations on their website I just checked.

gmisk

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i dont think it was ever a charity. it is registered as Lolek Ltd in the CRO..

According to their own website...it is both...

The Iona Institute is a private company limited by guarantee. The company number is 424940. The charity number is 17347.

ohnonotgmail

gmisk wrote: »

This says otherwise
http://www.thejournal.ie/iona-institute-1826121-Dec2014/
Maybe that has changed?
But they still accept donations on their website I just checked.

i stand corrected.

gmisk

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i stand corrected.

No worries I wasnt sure myself...it looks like it is both a registered company and a charity.

nice_guy80

Cannot understand why Opus Dei, sorry the Iona Institute keep on getting space in the media to spout their dogma

Triceratops Ballet

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Cannot understand why Opus Dei, sorry the Iona Institute keep on getting space in the media to spout their dogma

Money! (and "balance")

erica74

Ah I'm annoyed, I didn't even think about donating in someone else's name, I just used my own name! Anyway, €50 donated, I was afraid I wouldn't make it in before they surpassed their next target, I think they're at nearly €190,000 already and, as someone else said, there will be a bit influx as people head home for the evening.

Keep reposting the link

https://togetherforyes.causevox.com/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=cf1

bertieinexile

NuMarvel wrote: »

I'm not following the entire discussion around British private service providers setting up in Ireland, but just bear in mind that our service delivery model will be different to Britain's.

In the first 12 weeks, when most abortions are carried out, a woman in Ireland would just need to visit a GP of family planning clinic to be prescribed the abortion pill. In Britain, the approval of two doctors is needed, even early on in pregnancy, which in practical terms would mean visiting a dedicated clinic or hospital.

Even if only a quarter of the GPs in Ireland agreed to provide abortion services, that's still over 500 GPs around the country.

As for surgical abortions, I don't think the numbers would justify the investment in infrastructure, technology, and personnel, even if it was the only facility in the country to offer these abortions (which it wouldn't be).

If Marie Stopes or someone else sets up, it'll be most likely as a wider family planning service, where medical abortions up to 12 weeks are one service. I can't see them offering surgical abortions "on demand up to 24 weeks" because a) the law as proposed doesn't allow that, and b) even if it did, a new service provider wouldn't get the number of patients needed to justify the investment.

To repeat your own summing up, numarvel, you are arguing that Marie Stopes or some other clinic won't set up here for two reasons
(a) whether the law will allow it, which we've been discussing above, and
(b) a new service provider wouldn't get the number of patients needed to justify the investment.

Your second point is a very interesting one. Is the business there?
You are arguing above that Irish GPs will undercut Marie Stopes on both price and convenience for terminations in the first 12 weeks. I'm inclined to agree. It depends on whether GPs are going to send women for ultrasounds, but on the face of it a woman could end the life in her womb up to 12 weeks for as little as €160 - and for free if she has a medical card. And at locations probably as convenient as her local shops.
Marie Stopes clinics offer this medical abortion service to english women for a far pricier €640 (although that does include an ultrasound).
https://www.mariestopes.org.uk/abortion-services/fees/
It does look as if the money that would come from ending these lives up to 12 weeks would end up with local GPs.



But your question is essentially whether there is enough profit in surgical abortions to entice Marie Stopes to set up here. I think there is.

Firstly though, for anyone in any doubt that for the people who run these oragnisations and make these decisions this is purely about business, consider what happened with the Marie Stopes clinic in Belfast.

They arrived there in 2012 carried out abortions for 5 years and then left in 2017 because.... the british government started offering women from the north free abortion services in england. The numbers weren't there to make it sustainable.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/closure-of-marie-stopes-belfast-clinic-ends-five-years-of-hostility-1.3318970

Following the UK Government’s move to fund abortion services for Northern Irish women using our clinics in England, ...we have taken the ...decision that our Belfast clinic will close in December 2017.

https://mariestopes.org/news/2017/12/media-statement-marie-stopes-uk-announces-closure-of-belfast-clinic/

And now as a result of a conscious decision by the UK government and Marie Stopes, women in the north must travel to england to have an abortion. I would guess that they looked at the example of the republic and saw that this travel had never been the source of any real health concerns. Whatever other difficulties there may or may not have been weren't enough to worry Marie Stopes or the british government.




I get your point, numarvel, that under Harris's mad poposed legislation abortions would be way cheaper and easier to get here up to 12 weeks than in england and that would somewhat reduce the market for abortions after 12 weeks. Still the amount of money involved in these later abortions, that GPs couldn't provide, is so much that clinics like Marie Stopes aren't going to turn it down.

The money available in england from ending the lives of children diagnosed with Down Syndrome alone is considerable.
According to Prof Fergal Malone, Master of the Rotunda and notorious fantasist the earliest a child can be daignosed with Down Syndrome is 12 weeks. An abortion at that point with Marie Stopes will cost €750-900 but if there is any delay in diagnosis, or any second thoughts, an abortion at 14 weeks will cost €1100 and after 19 weeks it's €2000.

But the main point is that according to uk satistics 38% of abortions carried out there in 2016 were surgical. So even if that number was reduced somewhat by the fact that it would be far easier and far cheaper to get an abortion up to 12 weeks in Ireland than is the case now in england, there is still so much money in surgical abortions that it seems like it would still be very lucrative.

No wonder Marie Stopes phone women at home who have decided not to have an abortion, and offer them a new appointment.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4998810/Britain-s-largest-abortion-clinic-paid-staff-bonuses.html

No wonder 1 in 5 pregnancies in england end in abortion.


People are going to claim that the above is scaremongering. But everything above is factual. And yes it really is scary. It was horrible to type it out. But show me a line in it that isn't true. The reality of what is being proposed is just very ugly.

You can't vote yes unless you are comfortable with this.

On demand. Up to 24 weeks.

WinnyThePoo

Just donated. The lies and dishonesty I'm seeing here pushed me over the line. Thanks to all the informative posters here.

I'll be voting to repeal. It's the humane thing to do.

dudara

garbo speaks wrote: »

These people donating money for those unsightly referendum posters are deluded. Surely there are other more worthwhile causes to donate your money to (donate to the Irish Cancer Society, ISPCA, etc.), but no, people love to latch on to a timely fad. Does donating your money for these posters mean anything? No. It's just a way for the loony lefties to feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Personally, I already donate money on a regular monthly basis to several charities that are close to my heart and which have had a personal impact on my life and on my family. So I don’t take kindly to anyone questioning my charitable motivations.

As a woman, this campaign’s result will affect any pregnancies that I have. I think that’s a good enouch reason to support this cause. So go away with you what-aboutery. It’s a red herring.

nozzferrahhtoo

garbo speaks wrote: »

These people donating money for those unsightly referendum posters are deluded. Surely there are other more worthwhile causes to donate your money to (donate to the Irish Cancer Society, ISPCA, etc.)

Firstly for some people the two are not mutually exclusive. Donating to one thing does not mean you are not also donating to another. Perhaps YOU only care about one thing at a time. Many of us have rather diverse and large attention spans however.

Secondly how are you measuring relative merit exactly? We are talking about a referendum that could influence the choices, freedoms, well being, and rights of approximately half our citizens.

Thirdly what is your issue with posters? The you tube channel "Crash Course" recently started a course on media literacy for the lay man that might benefit you. Much as we might like to pretend otherwise, media and advertising WORKS.

Fourth, what is "deluded" exactly about merely having different priorities than you? Because that is, essentially, all you are whinging about. People do not share YOUR priorities and the sole explanation for this you can possibly come up with is to assume some level of mental deficiency or error on their part? A whole dose of getting over yourself would likely be required if that is the case.

kylith

garbo speaks wrote: »

These people donating money for those unsightly referendum posters are deluded. Surely there are other more worthwhile causes to donate your money to (donate to the Irish Cancer Society, ISPCA, etc.), but no, people love to latch on to a timely fad. Does donating your money for these posters mean anything? No. It's just a way for the loony lefties to feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

The people who need abortions ARE cancer patients and abused children and women.

Martina1991

bertieinexile wrote:

No wonder Marie Stopes phone women at home who have decided not to have an abortion, and offer them a new appointment.

Ah the Daily Mail.
One of the finer scientific publications.

RobertKK

Do the Yes posters even mention abortion?

RobertKK

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Just donated. The lies and dishonesty I'm seeing here pushed me over the line. Thanks to all the informative posters here.

I'll be voting to repeal. It's the humane thing to do.

Killing human life is humane...or the unborn are killed humanely?

RobertKK

erica74 wrote: »

Ah I'm annoyed, I didn't even think about donating in someone else's name, I just used my own name! Anyway, €50 donated, I was afraid I wouldn't make it in before they surpassed their next target, I think they're at nearly €190,000 already and, as someone else said, there will be a bit influx as people head home for the evening.

Keep reposting the link

https://togetherforyes.causevox.com/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=cf1

It is very open to abuse as one just has to click they are in Ireland, so illegal foreign donations can be accepted.
When one goes to the address section, the default setting is United States. Very open way to get donations that are fraudulent.

WinnyThePoo

RobertKK wrote: »

Killing human life is humane...or the unborn are killed humanely?

Are woman just incubators to you?.