Defecting from Church

igCorcaigh

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's a record that you were baptised. it's not a record that you *are* a catholic.

Well, that's *your* interpretation

igCorcaigh

There are always hospital records.

Something to say that we where here. Church records will do it for me.

goose06

Local Authorites own most graveyards I thought

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/death/after_a_death/burials.html

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Which is fair enough. But, with lack of alternatives, it's not something I would like my loved ones to be facing, had I just died yesterday.

Do they look through the books and say, nope.. IgCorcaigh is not here, no funeral allowed?

I'd like to know in advance.

igCorcaigh

OK. One more post from me. Sorry op.

I was baptised when I was just born, prematurely. When I went to hospital as a twelve year old, my mam checked that box as the Catholic norm. And I remember giving out so much!

She also paid the brown envelopes off. (keep them away from the door!)

She's no more catholic than I am, but that's mothers for you!

Happy mothers day mam.

magicbastarder

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Well, that's *your* interpretation

which - AFAIK - the church also uses.

igCorcaigh

magicbastarder wrote: »

which - AFAIK - the church also uses.

So, there is a register?

igCorcaigh

OT:

(I hate the church for owning my mystery, but I hate capitalism more for denying there's any mystery at all)

But that's another thread.

magicbastarder

that the church considers the baptismal register to be a historical document; it's a record that your parents had you baptised. this is not in doubt.

they do not use it to claim you are a catholic. contemporary figures used are census returns and mass attendance.

igCorcaigh

magicbastarder wrote: »

that the church considers the baptismal register to be a historical document; it's a record that your parents had you baptised. this is not in doubt.

they do not use it to claim you are a catholic. contemporary figures used are census returns and mass attendance.

But can they deny you burial ground?

magicbastarder

why don't you ask them? i don't know who owns your local burial ground. if it's local authority, they probably control the burials as per the above.

it's kinda amusing that you seem to want to leave the church but are put out by the notion that they might not be willing to bury you in a catholic plot as a result.

splinter65

igCorcaigh wrote: »

So OP, say you needed to convert formally to... Say, Judaism, because of marriage or whatever.

Can you then request a removal of your name from the register? Even though its not formally allowed? Interesting question.

Which register ? On the register your recorded as having been baptized.
Because you were baptized.
You can’t say “I’m Jewish now so I want to pretend I was never baptized”.
How would that work?

splinter65

Del2005 wrote: »

Someone else forced me to be baptised before I could roll over never mind understand the implications of it. You can't enter another person into a contract without their consent so why should it be kept as a record that I'm a Catholic when as soon as I was old enough and discovered that all religion is just bad fairy tales I stopped attending Mass and even when I did attend Mass or pray it was when made to by other people.

I have decided I'm not baptised as I don't practice or believe their BS, therefore I don't recognise what was done why I wasn't even a toddler.

You need to take it up with whoever brought you to be baptized.
You were brought to be baptized and RCC can’t pretend that you weren’t.
It’s a matter of record.

igCorcaigh

splinter65 wrote: »

Which register ? On the register your recorded as having been baptized.
Because you were baptized.
You can’t say “I’m Jewish now so I want to pretend I was never baptized”.
How would that work?

I don't know. It was more of a question to OP.

igCorcaigh

magicbastarder wrote: »

why don't you ask them? i don't know who owns your local burial ground. if it's local authority, they probably control the burials as per the above.

it's kinda amusing that you seem to want to leave the church but are put out by the notion that they might not be willing to bury you in a catholic plot as a result.

I just don't want to make things difficult for my parents if I die soon.

splinter65

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Ti's a bit. But how many graveyards are around the place that are not Catholic?

Our graveyard is managed by the local authority. Most are. You need to ring your local authority to make any quiries about who can be buried there.
I’d imagine as long as you pay whatever grave opening/plot purchasing fees they have then you should be fine.

daithi84

magicbastarder wrote: »

if you are not attending mass, and you don't enter your religion as catholic in the census, you are not counted as catholic in any contemporary headcount. your baptism is a historical record and not used to determine levels of catholicism today.

There is baptismal register with your name on it confirming you have been baptised. It might not be used in state statistics but it is your personal information held by the Catholic Church as a member. They seem to throw around the number '1 billion' followers. I wouldn't say they are relying on official state statistics. A historical record is still a record and should be removed if that person does not wish it to be noted. It obviously means something if they went to the bother of removing the only official cannon law way of a person removing themselves.

splinter65

daithi84 wrote: »

There is baptismal register with your name on it confirming you have been baptised. It might not be used in state statistics but it is your personal information held by the Catholic Church as a member. They seem to throw around the number '1 billion' followers. I wouldn't say they are relying on official state statistics. A historical record is still a record and should be removed if that person does not wish it to be noted. It obviously means something if they went to the bother of removing the only official cannon law way of a person removing themselves.

It’s a record of an event that happened.
The date it happened, the name of the baptized person, who the godparents were, the name of the priest.
You want to pretend it didn’t happen?

daithi84

splinter65 wrote: »

It’s a record of an event that happened.
The date it happened, the name of the baptized person, who the godparents were, the name of the priest.
You want to pretend it didn’t happen?

It is not a matter of pretending it didnt happen. its a matter of my personal records being recorded without my consent. Up until 2008 you could get the records deleted and then they changed the rules so no one could remove themselves from the baptismal register.

I also once signed up for a tesco card, is that also historical. They allowed me to delete the record, why cant the CC.

You seem very intent on keeping names on the register. Wonder why?? hmm

TheChizler

The data protection angle is an interesting one (if that's what you're going for). I don't see the point in getting it removed myself (I'd be very surprised if my own record has been accessed since the event) but if the church are subject to data protection legislation they may have to remove it. Presuming it's a book in the local parish office, would this involve scratching out the entry?

If it's not held on a computer system the requirements to register are different.

Edit: previous decision by the DPC

https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Case-Study-8-03-Catholic-Church-Baptismal-Records/107.htm

it is my understanding that the data could not be deleted from the Register as it is essential for the administration of Church affairs to maintain a register of all the people who have been baptised. Indeed it is of course a factual record of an event that happened

magicbastarder

daithi84 wrote: »

It is not a matter of pretending it didnt happen. its a matter of my personal records being recorded without my consent.

the 'without my consent' argument could be used for anything leading up to the time you were an adult. the consent issue is covered by the fact that your parents/legal guardians were the ones who gave the consent.

anyway, i just find the notion of insisting that your name be removed from their books to be counterproductive, in the sense that you're insisting that they have a significance way above and beyond the actual significance. you're granting them a power they don't have and don't claim to have.
i couldn't give a hoot what the catholic church think of me or that my name is written in a book somewhere that may not have been opened in many years.

splinter65

daithi84 wrote: »

It is not a matter of pretending it didnt happen. its a matter of my personal records being recorded without my consent. Up until 2008 you could get the records deleted and then they changed the rules so no one could remove themselves from the baptismal register.

I also once signed up for a tesco card, is that also historical. They allowed me to delete the record, why cant the CC.

You seem very intent on keeping names on the register. Wonder why?? hmm

Hmmmm....indeed. Your parents gave consent on your behalf, just like they gave consent for you to get your vaccines and your appendix out and to go on the school tour.
It matters not one whit to me how many names are on the register.
In fact, quite the opposite.
I think people who don’t attend should be struck out altogether so that when they come looking for
Communion day out
Confirmation day out
A wedding day out
A funeral day out
The priest could honestly tell them that they can’t do anything for them because they’re not on the list, and that way no ones time is wasted.
Don’t you agree?

Dial Hard

igCorcaigh wrote: »

I just don't want to make things difficult for my parents if I die soon.

So get cremated. Problem solved.

uck51js9zml2yt

igCorcaigh wrote: »

But, can someone be refused burial? In a local graveyard?

If you want nothing to do with the church nor contribute to the running of the organisation , why should they allow you use their facilities?

If it's a council cemetery there's no issue.

I'm saying this as someone who left over 30 years ago but never formally defected.

daithi84

splinter65 wrote: »

Hmmmm....indeed. Your parents gave consent on your behalf, just like they gave consent for you to get your vaccines and your appendix out and to go on the school tour.
It matters not one whit to me how many names are on the register.
In fact, quite the opposite.
I think people who don’t attend should be struck out altogether so that when they come looking for
Communion day out
Confirmation day out
A wedding day out
A funeral day out
The priest could honestly tell them that they can’t do anything for them because they’re not on the list, and that way no ones time is wasted.
Don’t you agree?

Doesnt matter if my parents gave consent, I'm an adult now and i want that consent withdrawn. It is not a definitive event like appendix or vaccine. They cant be undone. My name in a baptismal register can.

I wont be looking for communions, confirmations, weddings or a funeral. If your name is removed from the register you are no longer considered a catholic by the church and these services are denied to you unless you re-baptise. That is the case as is. However the church has not allowed anyone to leave.

I am very in favour of a church tax as in Germany where people pay a small tax towards their religion of choice and receive all those services once applied for (without the mandatory "voluntary" donations that exists here).

You are more than entitled to not care where you name appears but to some of us it matters a great deal. Each to their own as they say.

magicbastarder

daithi84 wrote: »

However the church has not allowed anyone to leave.

Are you trapped? Should we send a rescue party?

You seem to think the baptismal register is a contract or legal document. It's not. You were baptised, whether you like it or not. Your choice now is whether you place any credence in a ritual you ostensibly don't regard as having any significance.

magicbastarder

daithi84 wrote: »

I am very in favour of a church tax as in Germany where people pay a small tax towards their religion of choice and receive all those services once applied for

Why in the name of god should the state get involved in collecting funds for churches? Why should the public pay to provide the service which collects their money for them?

Ewan Hoosarmi

https://notme.ie

This what you're looking for?

It's only symbolic, but isn't the whole religion thing symbolics anyway?

splinter65

daithi84 wrote: »

Doesnt matter if my parents gave consent, I'm an adult now and i want that consent withdrawn. It is not a definitive event like appendix or vaccine. They cant be undone. My name in a baptismal register can.

I wont be looking for communions, confirmations, weddings or a funeral. If your name is removed from the register you are no longer considered a catholic by the church and these services are denied to you unless you re-baptise. That is the case as is. However the church has not allowed anyone to leave.

I am very in favour of a church tax as in Germany where people pay a small tax towards their religion of choice and receive all those services once applied for (without the mandatory "voluntary" donations that exists here).

You are more than entitled to not care where you name appears but to some of us it matters a great deal. Each to their own as they say.

daithi84 wrote: »

Doesnt matter if my parents gave consent, I'm an adult now and i want that consent withdrawn. It is not a definitive event like appendix or vaccine. They cant be undone. My name in a baptismal register can.

I wont be looking for communions, confirmations, weddings or a funeral. If your name is removed from the register you are no longer considered a catholic by the church and these services are denied to you unless you re-baptise. That is the case as is. However the church has not allowed anyone to leave.

I am very in favour of a church tax as in Germany where people pay a small tax towards their religion of choice and receive all those services once applied for (without the mandatory "voluntary" donations that exists here).

You are more than entitled to not care where you name appears but to some of us it matters a great deal. Each to their own as they say.

Your baptism was a definitive event.
Your parents made an appointment with a healthcare professional.
Your parents brought you to get your MMR vaccine. It was given to you, and a record was made of the incident.
Likewise,
Your parents made an appointment with the priest.
They asked people they knew to be your godparents.
They bought a special candle.
On the big day they got you all dressed up and they brought you to the church and you were baptized a Catholic.
Nobody dragged them there.
I would suggest that it’s your parents you should have the issue with and you really should take it up with them and I wonder if you have?
It did happen and you can’t go back in a time machine and undo it.
Apart from feeling aggrieved with the church instead of parents, how is the fact that you were baptized affecting your day to day life?

daithi84

magicbastarder wrote: »

daithi84 wrote: »

However the church has not allowed anyone to leave.

Are you trapped? Should we send a rescue party?

You seem to think the baptismal register is a contract or legal document. It's not. You were baptised, whether you like it or not. Your choice now is whether you place any credence in a ritual you ostensibly don't regard as having any significance.

You seem very triggered at the thought of someone wanting their name removed. How exactly will it affect you? I was baptised and now I want that record deleted and my name removed. You seem to think a baptism has magical powers that once baptised I am forever catholic. The record of that event is recorded. I want that record either deleted or amended to reflect my defection since that is the official record held by the Catholic Church. It’s quite simple. Don’t know why you are so against the idea unless you don’t want people leaving.

daithi84

Ewan Hoosarmi wrote: »

https://notme.ie

This what you're looking for?

It's only symbolic, but isn't the whole religion thing symbolics anyway?

Pre 2008 is was an official defection. The church changed cannon law to forbid anyone leaving due to high numbers.