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Defecting from Church

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  • 12-03-2018 1:03pm
    #1
    ifElseThen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 348 ✭✭


    Given the Catholic church no longer allow formal defection, would it be possible to register placeholder organisation/religion to allow you to "convert" to that, thereby leaving the Catholic church.


«1345

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    #2
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    ifElseThen wrote: »
    Given the Catholic church no longer allow formal defection, would it be possible to register placeholder organisation/religion to allow you to "convert" to that, thereby leaving that Catholic church.

    Where would you be registering this new religion?
    You’re not registered anywhere as a Catholic, so nothing to deregister from.


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    #3
    ifElseThen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 348 ✭✭ifElseThen


    Well that's what I was wondering about...
    Maybe register with the charities authority as a pseudo charity/religious org.


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    #4
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    splinter65 wrote: »
    You’re not registered anywhere as a Catholic, so nothing to deregister from.

    Is this true? I thought that baptismal records where some form of register. Wasn't there a thing a few years back of people removing their names from this?


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    #5
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    ifElseThen wrote: »
    Given the Catholic church no longer allow formal defection.. .

    Is this true too??


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    #6
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    ifElseThen wrote: »
    Well that's what I was wondering about...
    Maybe register with the charities authority as a pseudo charity/religious org.

    But if you want to leave the RCC then just don’t go anymore.
    If you want to register a charity here’s the deal.
    http://www.wheel.ie/support/forming-your-charity


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    #7
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    igCorcaigh wrote: »
    Is this true? I thought that baptismal records where some form of register. Wasn't there a thing a few years back of people removing their names from this?

    GDPR test case!


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    #8
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    One of the things I thought were a problem about deregistering back then was that you may not be able to be buried locally? Have I been misinformed?


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    #9
    ifElseThen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 348 ✭✭ifElseThen


    igCorcaigh wrote: »
    Is this true too??

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_act_of_defection_from_the_Catholic_Church

    "In late August 2010, the Holy See confirmed that it was no longer possible to defect formally from the Catholic Church."


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    #10
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    GDPR test case!

    What?


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    #11
    ifElseThen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 348 ✭✭ifElseThen


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    GDPR test case!

    Interesting angle. Force the Church to remove all personal data on you....


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    #12
    ifElseThen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 348 ✭✭ifElseThen


    splinter65 wrote: »
    But if you want to leave the RCC then just don’t go anymore.
    If you want to register a charity here’s the deal.
    http://www.wheel.ie/support/forming-your-charity

    I don't wish to be included in their headcount.


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    #13
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    ifElseThen wrote: »
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_act_of_defection_from_the_Catholic_Church

    "In late August 2010, the Holy See confirmed that it was no longer possible to defect formally from the Catholic Church."

    Thanks, I missed that at the time. My mind must have been on more worldly things.


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    #14
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    igCorcaigh wrote: »
    Is this true? I thought that baptismal records where some form of register. Wasn't there a thing a few years back of people removing their names from this?

    In every parish there is a register where a record is kept of Catholic sacraments including baptism.
    If you were baptized then there is a record of it there.
    As it is impossible to pretend that something that did happen, DIDNT happen, then it’s pointless removing an entry from the register.
    You can’t rewrite history and decide that you weren’t baptized after all.


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    #15
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    igCorcaigh wrote: »
    What?

    Ah I see! Have they digitised the records :)?


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    #16
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    ifElseThen wrote: »
    I don't wish to be included in their headcount.

    There isn’t a headcount.


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    #17
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    splinter65 wrote: »
    In every parish there is a register where a record is kept of Catholic sacraments including baptism.
    If you were baptized then there is a record of it there.
    As it is impossible to pretend that something that did happen, DIDNT happen, then it’s pointless removing an entry from the register.
    You can’t rewrite history and decide that you weren’t baptized after all.

    I agree. I've never been too bothered about it personally.

    But I replied to this thread because I'm curious about to the procedure if one did decide to formally remove themselves from the books. I spoke to someone recently who did just that.


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    #18
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    So OP, say you needed to convert formally to... Say, Judaism, because of marriage or whatever.

    Can you then request a removal of your name from the register? Even though its not formally allowed? Interesting question.


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    #19
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    I don't have an answer. Sorry about invading the thread without an answer for you OP.


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    #20
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,415 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    igCorcaigh wrote: »
    Can you then request a removal of your name from the register? Even though its not formally allowed? Interesting question.
    What register? I used to be looking for ways to formally defect in the past but realized I was making an assumption that there was a formal register. We've been debating this for years but there's ever been any evidence of a current members register existing. Defecting in the past meant a note was added to the record of your baptism saying that you stated you wished to defect, but nothin was removed.

    If you want to keep out of their numbers the best way is to not put down Catholic when the census comes around again.


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    #21
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,446 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    ifElseThen wrote: »
    I don't wish to be included in their headcount.
    if you are not attending mass, and you don't enter your religion as catholic in the census, you are not counted as catholic in any contemporary headcount. your baptism is a historical record and not used to determine levels of catholicism today.


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    #22
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    TheChizler wrote: »
    What register? I used to be looking for ways to formally defect in the past but realized I was making an assumption that there was a formal register. We've been debating this for years but there's ever been any evidence of a current members register existing. Defecting in the past meant a note was added to the record of your baptism saying that you stated you wished to defect, but nothin was removed.

    If you want to keep out of their numbers the best way is to not put down Catholic when the census comes around again.

    Totally agree with second paragraph.

    I guess what I mean by register is the baptismal record.


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    #23
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    if you are not attending mass, and you don't enter your religion as catholic in the census, you are not counted as catholic in any contemporary headcount. your baptism is a historical record and not used to determine levels of catholicism today.

    But, can someone be refused burial? In a local graveyard?


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    #24
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,446 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    if the church owns the graveyard, i don't see why not. they could refuse burial in that sense based on simple lack of attendance too, i guess.


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    #25
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    Or is that fearmongering. I heard it said a few years back.

    Sorry again OP for hijacking.


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    #26
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    if the church owns the graveyard, i don't see why not. they could refuse burial in that sense based on simple lack of attendance too, i guess.

    Which is fair enough. But, with lack of alternatives, it's not something I would like my loved ones to be facing, had I just died yesterday.

    Do they look through the books and say, nope.. IgCorcaigh is not here, no funeral allowed?

    I'd like to know in advance.


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    #27
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,446 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    why would you want to both leave the church and be buried in a catholic graveyard? is that not having your cake and eating it?


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    #28
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    Ti's a bit. But how many graveyards are around the place that are not Catholic?


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    #29
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    Bloody hell, they get you when you're born, and they want the death as well. Weirdos the lot of em.


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    #30
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,888 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    splinter65 wrote: »
    In every parish there is a register where a record is kept of Catholic sacraments including baptism.
    If you were baptized then there is a record of it there.
    As it is impossible to pretend that something that did happen, DIDNT happen, then it’s pointless removing an entry from the register.
    You can’t rewrite history and decide that you weren’t baptized after all.

    Someone else forced me to be baptised before I could roll over never mind understand the implications of it. You can't enter another person into a contract without their consent so why should it be kept as a record that I'm a Catholic when as soon as I was old enough and discovered that all religion is just bad fairy tales I stopped attending Mass and even when I did attend Mass or pray it was when made to by other people.

    I have decided I'm not baptised as I don't practice or believe their BS, therefore I don't recognise what was done why I wasn't even a toddler.


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    #31
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,446 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Del2005 wrote: »
    why should it be kept as a record that I'm a Catholic
    it's a record that you were baptised. it's not a record that you *are* a catholic.


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