Defecting from Church

ifElseThen

Given the Catholic church no longer allow formal defection, would it be possible to register placeholder organisation/religion to allow you to "convert" to that, thereby leaving the Catholic church.

splinter65

ifElseThen wrote: »

Given the Catholic church no longer allow formal defection, would it be possible to register placeholder organisation/religion to allow you to "convert" to that, thereby leaving that Catholic church.

Where would you be registering this new religion?
You’re not registered anywhere as a Catholic, so nothing to deregister from.

ifElseThen

Well that's what I was wondering about...
Maybe register with the charities authority as a pseudo charity/religious org.

igCorcaigh

splinter65 wrote: »

You’re not registered anywhere as a Catholic, so nothing to deregister from.

Is this true? I thought that baptismal records where some form of register. Wasn't there a thing a few years back of people removing their names from this?

igCorcaigh

ifElseThen wrote: »

Given the Catholic church no longer allow formal defection.. .

Is this true too??

splinter65

ifElseThen wrote: »

Well that's what I was wondering about...
Maybe register with the charities authority as a pseudo charity/religious org.

But if you want to leave the RCC then just don’t go anymore.
If you want to register a charity here’s the deal.
http://www.wheel.ie/support/forming-your-charity

LeinsterDub

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Is this true? I thought that baptismal records where some form of register. Wasn't there a thing a few years back of people removing their names from this?

GDPR test case!

igCorcaigh

One of the things I thought were a problem about deregistering back then was that you may not be able to be buried locally? Have I been misinformed?

ifElseThen

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Is this true too??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_act_of_defection_from_the_Catholic_Church

"In late August 2010, the Holy See confirmed that it was no longer possible to defect formally from the Catholic Church."

igCorcaigh

LeinsterDub wrote: »

GDPR test case!

What?

ifElseThen

LeinsterDub wrote: »

GDPR test case!

Interesting angle. Force the Church to remove all personal data on you....

ifElseThen

splinter65 wrote: »

But if you want to leave the RCC then just don’t go anymore.
If you want to register a charity here’s the deal.
http://www.wheel.ie/support/forming-your-charity

I don't wish to be included in their headcount.

igCorcaigh

ifElseThen wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_act_of_defection_from_the_Catholic_Church

"In late August 2010, the Holy See confirmed that it was no longer possible to defect formally from the Catholic Church."

Thanks, I missed that at the time. My mind must have been on more worldly things.

splinter65

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Is this true? I thought that baptismal records where some form of register. Wasn't there a thing a few years back of people removing their names from this?

In every parish there is a register where a record is kept of Catholic sacraments including baptism.
If you were baptized then there is a record of it there.
As it is impossible to pretend that something that did happen, DIDNT happen, then it’s pointless removing an entry from the register.
You can’t rewrite history and decide that you weren’t baptized after all.

igCorcaigh

igCorcaigh wrote: »

What?

Ah I see! Have they digitised the records ?

splinter65

ifElseThen wrote: »

I don't wish to be included in their headcount.

There isn’t a headcount.

igCorcaigh

splinter65 wrote: »

In every parish there is a register where a record is kept of Catholic sacraments including baptism.
If you were baptized then there is a record of it there.
As it is impossible to pretend that something that did happen, DIDNT happen, then it’s pointless removing an entry from the register.
You can’t rewrite history and decide that you weren’t baptized after all.

I agree. I've never been too bothered about it personally.

But I replied to this thread because I'm curious about to the procedure if one did decide to formally remove themselves from the books. I spoke to someone recently who did just that.

igCorcaigh

So OP, say you needed to convert formally to... Say, Judaism, because of marriage or whatever.

Can you then request a removal of your name from the register? Even though its not formally allowed? Interesting question.

igCorcaigh

I don't have an answer. Sorry about invading the thread without an answer for you OP.

TheChizler

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Can you then request a removal of your name from the register? Even though its not formally allowed? Interesting question.

What register? I used to be looking for ways to formally defect in the past but realized I was making an assumption that there was a formal register. We've been debating this for years but there's ever been any evidence of a current members register existing. Defecting in the past meant a note was added to the record of your baptism saying that you stated you wished to defect, but nothin was removed.

If you want to keep out of their numbers the best way is to not put down Catholic when the census comes around again.

magicbastarder

ifElseThen wrote: »

I don't wish to be included in their headcount.

if you are not attending mass, and you don't enter your religion as catholic in the census, you are not counted as catholic in any contemporary headcount. your baptism is a historical record and not used to determine levels of catholicism today.

igCorcaigh

TheChizler wrote: »

What register? I used to be looking for ways to formally defect in the past but realized I was making an assumption that there was a formal register. We've been debating this for years but there's ever been any evidence of a current members register existing. Defecting in the past meant a note was added to the record of your baptism saying that you stated you wished to defect, but nothin was removed.

If you want to keep out of their numbers the best way is to not put down Catholic when the census comes around again.

Totally agree with second paragraph.

I guess what I mean by register is the baptismal record.

igCorcaigh

magicbastarder wrote: »

if you are not attending mass, and you don't enter your religion as catholic in the census, you are not counted as catholic in any contemporary headcount. your baptism is a historical record and not used to determine levels of catholicism today.

But, can someone be refused burial? In a local graveyard?

magicbastarder

if the church owns the graveyard, i don't see why not. they could refuse burial in that sense based on simple lack of attendance too, i guess.

igCorcaigh

Or is that fearmongering. I heard it said a few years back.

Sorry again OP for hijacking.

igCorcaigh

magicbastarder wrote: »

if the church owns the graveyard, i don't see why not. they could refuse burial in that sense based on simple lack of attendance too, i guess.

Which is fair enough. But, with lack of alternatives, it's not something I would like my loved ones to be facing, had I just died yesterday.

Do they look through the books and say, nope.. IgCorcaigh is not here, no funeral allowed?

I'd like to know in advance.

magicbastarder

why would you want to both leave the church and be buried in a catholic graveyard? is that not having your cake and eating it?

igCorcaigh

Ti's a bit. But how many graveyards are around the place that are not Catholic?

igCorcaigh

Bloody hell, they get you when you're born, and they want the death as well. Weirdos the lot of em.

Del2005

splinter65 wrote: »

In every parish there is a register where a record is kept of Catholic sacraments including baptism.
If you were baptized then there is a record of it there.
As it is impossible to pretend that something that did happen, DIDNT happen, then it’s pointless removing an entry from the register.
You can’t rewrite history and decide that you weren’t baptized after all.

Someone else forced me to be baptised before I could roll over never mind understand the implications of it. You can't enter another person into a contract without their consent so why should it be kept as a record that I'm a Catholic when as soon as I was old enough and discovered that all religion is just bad fairy tales I stopped attending Mass and even when I did attend Mass or pray it was when made to by other people.

I have decided I'm not baptised as I don't practice or believe their BS, therefore I don't recognise what was done why I wasn't even a toddler.

magicbastarder

Del2005 wrote: »

why should it be kept as a record that I'm a Catholic

it's a record that you were baptised. it's not a record that you *are* a catholic.

igCorcaigh

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's a record that you were baptised. it's not a record that you *are* a catholic.

Well, that's *your* interpretation

igCorcaigh

There are always hospital records.

Something to say that we where here. Church records will do it for me.

goose06

Local Authorites own most graveyards I thought

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/death/after_a_death/burials.html

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Which is fair enough. But, with lack of alternatives, it's not something I would like my loved ones to be facing, had I just died yesterday.

Do they look through the books and say, nope.. IgCorcaigh is not here, no funeral allowed?

I'd like to know in advance.

igCorcaigh

OK. One more post from me. Sorry op.

I was baptised when I was just born, prematurely. When I went to hospital as a twelve year old, my mam checked that box as the Catholic norm. And I remember giving out so much!

She also paid the brown envelopes off. (keep them away from the door!)

She's no more catholic than I am, but that's mothers for you!

Happy mothers day mam.

magicbastarder

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Well, that's *your* interpretation

which - AFAIK - the church also uses.

igCorcaigh

magicbastarder wrote: »

which - AFAIK - the church also uses.

So, there is a register?

igCorcaigh

OT:

(I hate the church for owning my mystery, but I hate capitalism more for denying there's any mystery at all)

But that's another thread.

magicbastarder

that the church considers the baptismal register to be a historical document; it's a record that your parents had you baptised. this is not in doubt.

they do not use it to claim you are a catholic. contemporary figures used are census returns and mass attendance.

igCorcaigh

magicbastarder wrote: »

that the church considers the baptismal register to be a historical document; it's a record that your parents had you baptised. this is not in doubt.

they do not use it to claim you are a catholic. contemporary figures used are census returns and mass attendance.

But can they deny you burial ground?

magicbastarder

why don't you ask them? i don't know who owns your local burial ground. if it's local authority, they probably control the burials as per the above.

it's kinda amusing that you seem to want to leave the church but are put out by the notion that they might not be willing to bury you in a catholic plot as a result.

splinter65

igCorcaigh wrote: »

So OP, say you needed to convert formally to... Say, Judaism, because of marriage or whatever.

Can you then request a removal of your name from the register? Even though its not formally allowed? Interesting question.

Which register ? On the register your recorded as having been baptized.
Because you were baptized.
You can’t say “I’m Jewish now so I want to pretend I was never baptized”.
How would that work?

splinter65

Del2005 wrote: »

Someone else forced me to be baptised before I could roll over never mind understand the implications of it. You can't enter another person into a contract without their consent so why should it be kept as a record that I'm a Catholic when as soon as I was old enough and discovered that all religion is just bad fairy tales I stopped attending Mass and even when I did attend Mass or pray it was when made to by other people.

I have decided I'm not baptised as I don't practice or believe their BS, therefore I don't recognise what was done why I wasn't even a toddler.

You need to take it up with whoever brought you to be baptized.
You were brought to be baptized and RCC can’t pretend that you weren’t.
It’s a matter of record.

igCorcaigh

splinter65 wrote: »

Which register ? On the register your recorded as having been baptized.
Because you were baptized.
You can’t say “I’m Jewish now so I want to pretend I was never baptized”.
How would that work?

I don't know. It was more of a question to OP.

igCorcaigh

magicbastarder wrote: »

why don't you ask them? i don't know who owns your local burial ground. if it's local authority, they probably control the burials as per the above.

it's kinda amusing that you seem to want to leave the church but are put out by the notion that they might not be willing to bury you in a catholic plot as a result.

I just don't want to make things difficult for my parents if I die soon.

splinter65

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Ti's a bit. But how many graveyards are around the place that are not Catholic?

Our graveyard is managed by the local authority. Most are. You need to ring your local authority to make any quiries about who can be buried there.
I’d imagine as long as you pay whatever grave opening/plot purchasing fees they have then you should be fine.

daithi84

magicbastarder wrote: »

if you are not attending mass, and you don't enter your religion as catholic in the census, you are not counted as catholic in any contemporary headcount. your baptism is a historical record and not used to determine levels of catholicism today.

There is baptismal register with your name on it confirming you have been baptised. It might not be used in state statistics but it is your personal information held by the Catholic Church as a member. They seem to throw around the number '1 billion' followers. I wouldn't say they are relying on official state statistics. A historical record is still a record and should be removed if that person does not wish it to be noted. It obviously means something if they went to the bother of removing the only official cannon law way of a person removing themselves.

splinter65

daithi84 wrote: »

There is baptismal register with your name on it confirming you have been baptised. It might not be used in state statistics but it is your personal information held by the Catholic Church as a member. They seem to throw around the number '1 billion' followers. I wouldn't say they are relying on official state statistics. A historical record is still a record and should be removed if that person does not wish it to be noted. It obviously means something if they went to the bother of removing the only official cannon law way of a person removing themselves.

It’s a record of an event that happened.
The date it happened, the name of the baptized person, who the godparents were, the name of the priest.
You want to pretend it didn’t happen?

daithi84

splinter65 wrote: »

It’s a record of an event that happened.
The date it happened, the name of the baptized person, who the godparents were, the name of the priest.
You want to pretend it didn’t happen?

It is not a matter of pretending it didnt happen. its a matter of my personal records being recorded without my consent. Up until 2008 you could get the records deleted and then they changed the rules so no one could remove themselves from the baptismal register.

I also once signed up for a tesco card, is that also historical. They allowed me to delete the record, why cant the CC.

You seem very intent on keeping names on the register. Wonder why?? hmm

TheChizler

The data protection angle is an interesting one (if that's what you're going for). I don't see the point in getting it removed myself (I'd be very surprised if my own record has been accessed since the event) but if the church are subject to data protection legislation they may have to remove it. Presuming it's a book in the local parish office, would this involve scratching out the entry?

If it's not held on a computer system the requirements to register are different.

Edit: previous decision by the DPC

https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Case-Study-8-03-Catholic-Church-Baptismal-Records/107.htm

it is my understanding that the data could not be deleted from the Register as it is essential for the administration of Church affairs to maintain a register of all the people who have been baptised. Indeed it is of course a factual record of an event that happened

magicbastarder

daithi84 wrote: »

It is not a matter of pretending it didnt happen. its a matter of my personal records being recorded without my consent.

the 'without my consent' argument could be used for anything leading up to the time you were an adult. the consent issue is covered by the fact that your parents/legal guardians were the ones who gave the consent.

anyway, i just find the notion of insisting that your name be removed from their books to be counterproductive, in the sense that you're insisting that they have a significance way above and beyond the actual significance. you're granting them a power they don't have and don't claim to have.
i couldn't give a hoot what the catholic church think of me or that my name is written in a book somewhere that may not have been opened in many years.