Match preview and thread: IRE v SCO (Sat 10th Mar 14:15) TV3, ITV & FR2.

Claregaafan18

Joe Schmidt has defended Ireland's crash, bang and wallop tactics in the midst of Warren Gatland's tongue and cheek remark claiming Ireland's attacking play is "so exciting".

Personally I have a number of stuff that I would like to discuss about that. Firstly Gatland should keep his mouth shut when it comes to attacking rugby with his "warrenball" tactics that he has insisted throughout his professional rugby coaching career. Secondly Schmidt cannot say that Ireland play attacking rugby. At least 3 of our tries against the Welsh was through grunt and brute force, where it took periods and periods of going through the phases where we stubbornly did not go wide on those occasions where there was a ton of space there. Eventually we barged our way to the try line.

This possession based game that Schmidt has implemented has come at a cost of our more attack minded players. He has alienated the likes of Matt Healy, Tiernan O'Halloran, Craig Gilroy, Stuart McCloskey, Paul Marshall and Simon Zebo. He has certain gra's or agenda's against those players in particular because of "they don't do as I tell them to do". For now everyone seems happy that Schmidt is doing a good job because we are 3 from 3 in the 6N. However I had to laugh when TV3 analyst Shane Horgan said post-match against France that "I loved the ambition we showed". Is he living in the real world!!

Tomorrow is a real day of destiny for the Irish team. The Scots will come and play with real ambition. I still think that Scots feel that they are underappreciated by the Irish. In particular Shane Horgan and Ronan O'Gara's dismissal of them before this corresponding fixture last year in Murrayfield has really touched a nerve up there. Obviously I hope we win but to say we will win by 15 plus points that some are claiming here is absolute ludicrous. I'll take a one point win right now. If our kicking game is not up to scratch and gets loose then it could be a long afternoon. However on the basis that we kick intelligently, less narrow in defense and play this possession based game using the likes of Stander, Leavy and Furlong to crash over the gainline and suffocate the Scots, that might come handy if the weather is bad then Ireland will win in a low scoring match.

aloooof

Claregaafan18 wrote: »

He has alienated the likes of Matt Healy, Tiernan O'Halloran, Craig Gilroy, Stuart McCloskey, Paul Marshall and Simon Zebo. He has certain gra's or agenda's against those players in particular because of "they don't do as I tell them to do".

If a player doesn't do as Joe tells him, it's perfectly reasonable that he wouldn't be picked. That's hardly an agenda. Are you arguing that he should be picking players that don't do as he tells them?

Claregaafan18 wrote: »

For now everyone seems happy that Schmidt is doing a good job because we are 3 from 3 in the 6N.

Everyone seems happy not just because we are 3 from 3 this year. He has far more credit in the bank than just this 6 Nations alone.

Former Former

Claregaafan18 wrote: »

Joe Schmidt has defended Ireland's crash, bang and wallop tactics in the midst of Warren Gatland's tongue and cheek remark claiming Ireland's attacking play is "so exciting".

Personally I have a number of stuff that I would like to discuss about that. Firstly Gatland should keep his mouth shut when it comes to attacking rugby with his "warrenball" tactics that he has insisted throughout his professional rugby coaching career. Secondly Schmidt cannot say that Ireland play attacking rugby. At least 3 of our tries against the Welsh was through grunt and brute force, where it took periods and periods of going through the phases where we stubbornly did not go wide on those occasions where there was a ton of space there. Eventually we barged our way to the try line.

This possession based game that Schmidt has implemented has come at a cost of our more attack minded players. He has alienated the likes of Matt Healy, Tiernan O'Halloran, Craig Gilroy, Stuart McCloskey, Paul Marshall and Simon Zebo. He has certain gra's or agenda's against those players in particular because of "they don't do as I tell them to do". For now everyone seems happy that Schmidt is doing a good job because we are 3 from 3 in the 6N. However I had to laugh when TV3 analyst Shane Horgan said post-match against France that "I loved the ambition we showed". Is he living in the real world!!

Tomorrow is a real day of destiny for the Irish team. The Scots will come and play with real ambition. I still think that Scots feel that they are underappreciated by the Irish. In particular Shane Horgan and Ronan O'Gara's dismissal of them before this corresponding fixture last year in Murrayfield has really touched a nerve up there. Obviously I hope we win but to say we will win by 15 plus points that some are claiming here is absolute ludicrous. I'll take a one point win right now. If our kicking game is not up to scratch and gets loose then it could be a long afternoon. However on the basis that we kick intelligently, less narrow in defense and play this possession based game using the likes of Stander, Leavy and Furlong to crash over the gainline and suffocate the Scots, that might come handy if the weather is bad then Ireland will win in a low scoring match.

TBH I think Joe has an agenda against inferior players. I assume you mean Luke Marshall rather than Paul Marshall, but even then, of the players you've named, only Zebo is remotely good enough to force his way into the 23 for tomorrow.

The players you've named, with the exception of Healy, have all had multiple call-ups in Ireland camp. Every player gets a fair chance; some players take their chances, others don't. Matt Healy isn't good enough to merit a call-up, sorry to say.

We're going out tomorrow with a three-quarters line of:

Earls
Aki
Ringrose
Stockdale

Have Ireland, under ANY coach, ever fielded a more attacking 11 - 14? I'd be surprised.

Now, imagine that line-up was:
Healy
McCloskey
Marshall
Gilroy

We'd be beaten out the gate.

The players that Joe "has an agenda" against simply aren't good enough. If, as you suggest, a player won't do as he's told, then why on earth would any coach pick him?

Birdie Num Num

Claregaafan18 wrote: »

Joe Schmidt has defended Ireland's crash, bang and wallop tactics in the midst of Warren Gatland's tongue and cheek remark claiming Ireland's attacking play is "so exciting".

Personally I have a number of stuff that I would like to discuss about that. Firstly Gatland should keep his mouth shut when it comes to attacking rugby with his "warrenball" tactics that he has insisted throughout his professional rugby coaching career. Secondly Schmidt cannot say that Ireland play attacking rugby. At least 3 of our tries against the Welsh was through grunt and brute force, where it took periods and periods of going through the phases where we stubbornly did not go wide on those occasions where there was a ton of space there. Eventually we barged our way to the try line.

This possession based game that Schmidt has implemented has come at a cost of our more attack minded players. He has alienated the likes of Matt Healy, Tiernan O'Halloran, Craig Gilroy, Stuart McCloskey, Paul Marshall and Simon Zebo. He has certain gra's or agenda's against those players in particular because of "they don't do as I tell them to do". For now everyone seems happy that Schmidt is doing a good job because we are 3 from 3 in the 6N. However I had to laugh when TV3 analyst Shane Horgan said post-match against France that "I loved the ambition we showed". Is he living in the real world!!

Tomorrow is a real day of destiny for the Irish team. The Scots will come and play with real ambition. I still think that Scots feel that they are underappreciated by the Irish. In particular Shane Horgan and Ronan O'Gara's dismissal of them before this corresponding fixture last year in Murrayfield has really touched a nerve up there. Obviously I hope we win but to say we will win by 15 plus points that some are claiming here is absolute ludicrous. I'll take a one point win right now. If our kicking game is not up to scratch and gets loose then it could be a long afternoon. However on the basis that we kick intelligently, less narrow in defense and play this possession based game using the likes of Stander, Leavy and Furlong to crash over the gainline and suffocate the Scots, that might come handy if the weather is bad then Ireland will win in a low scoring match.

I still think when called upon they are good in attacking play. It's in defending I would be concerned about in terms of our backs particularly out wide. In saying that we can go out and win this by 15-20 but I'd be cautious.

sydthebeat

Claregaafan18 wrote: »

Schmidt cannot say that Ireland play attacking rugby. At least 3 of our tries against the Welsh was through grunt and brute force, where it took periods and periods of going through the phases where we stubbornly did not go wide on those occasions where there was a ton of space there. Eventually we barged our way to the try line..

do you think attacking rugby only exists if the ball is thrown out wide?

if we scored 3 tries through those phases of play, then keeping the ball tight was EXACTLY the right decision to make.

prawnsambo

Claregaafan18 wrote: »

Secondly Schmidt cannot say that Ireland play attacking rugby. At least 3 of our tries against the Welsh was through grunt and brute force, where it took periods and periods of going through the phases where we stubbornly did not go wide on those occasions where there was a ton of space there. Eventually we barged our way to the try line.

You may need to look at that game again. Early in the first half, we broke from our own 22, and in a handful of phases were in the Welsh 22 when we were turned over. Our first try came after just four phases from a scrum. Our second was phase possession alright, but our third came on the back of a break by Keith Earls and we were over the line in four phases from there. Earls' break came after six phases. Our fourth was scored after three phases from a scrum on the Welsh 5m (which followed a lineout loss on their 5m that we turned over). And the fifth was an intercept.

captbarnacles

Thought Ireland were sensational in attack vs Wales. We scored 5 tries!

The criticism of Joe Schmidt is bizarre at this stage.

aloooof

Former Former wrote: »

We're going out tomorrow with a three-quarters line of:

Earls
Aki
Ringrose
Stockdale

Have Ireland, under ANY coach, ever fielded a more attacking 11 - 14? I'd be surprised.

I'd agree with all of our post except for this. We've surely had some combination of Horgan/Bowe, Drico, D'arcy and Hickie/Luke Fitz at some point?

Birdie Num Num

captbarnacles wrote: »

Thought Ireland were sensational in attack vs Wales. We scored 5 tries!

The criticism of Joe Schmidt is bizarre at this stage.

I think that is a little over the top. I haven't seen any real harsh criticism of Schmidt. He is the best coach we have had. He is a great tactician. He does go into a game with his homework done. I have seen posters express opinions but criticism is thin enough.

Podge_irl

.ak wrote: »

Ah c'mon. Farrell was clear MOTM. Aside from a couple of poor reads in defence he was absolutely brilliant. He worked so hard from the very first whistle, put in a serious shift, his tackles and carries were far more physical than any other player on the pitch, I'd have been delighted if Henshaw put in a shift like that. Everyone in the stands with us at half time were in agreement he was MoTM at that point even, even the Welsh fans beside us!

Sexton was class, but never in a million years will a kicker who misses that many sitters get MoTM - not something I agree with, but that's the way it goes. I thought he was brilliant, yet when I came in to work on Monday the office colleagues were all in agreement he was piss-poor... the general public base a 10 off the tee it seems.

The general public don't pick MOTM!

I'm probably pretty biased as I've always been a fan, but I think Sexton is the MOTM in most games he plays tbh. He's ludicrously good and people don't appreciate him as much as they should. He controlled that game perfectly - which is what a 10 is supposed to do and their actual primary role.

aloooof

Podge_irl wrote: »

The general public don't pick MOTM!

I'm probably pretty biased as I've always been a fan, but I think Sexton is the MOTM in most games he plays tbh. He's ludicrously good and people don't appreciate him as much as they should. He controlled that game perfectly - which is what a 10 is supposed to do and their actual primary role.

A very large part of that primary role is kicking your place kicks as well tho. I agree that he was brilliant last weekend (and has been for so long now), but I think AK has it right that a 10 who misses that many kicks is unlikely to get MotM. Whether that's right or wrong is a different matter.

Podge_irl

aloooof wrote: »

A very large part of that primary role is kicking your place kicks as well tho. I agree that he was brilliant last weekend (and has been for so long now), but I think AK has it right that a 10 who misses that many kicks is unlikely to get MotM. Whether that's right or wrong is a different matter.

It's not the primary role of a 10 though. It is the primary role of the kicker. It frustrates me to no end that in Ireland we conflate the two.

MJohnston

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

I think that is a little over the top. I haven't seen any real harsh criticism of Schmidt. He is the best coach we have had. He is a great tactician. He does go into a game with his homework done. I have seen posters express opinions but criticism is thin enough.

Then you might want to read the posters asserting (with no evidence) that Schmidt has a bizarre attitude towards the supporters, or that he holds agendas against particular players to alienate them.

Actually, you probably don't want to read them, I don't.

aloooof

Podge_irl wrote: »

It's not the primary role of a 10 though. It is the primary role of the kicker. It frustrates me to no end that in Ireland we conflate the two.

Fair point. But still Johnny happens to be our kicker. In any case, I'd argue that (for good or bad) any kicker that misses the amount of kicks that Johnny did against Wales is unlikely to get MotM.

Podge_irl

aloooof wrote: »

Fair point. But still Johnny happens to be our kicker. In any case, I'd argue that (for good or bad) any kicker that misses the amount of kicks that Johnny did against Wales is unlikely to get MotM.

Yeah, fair enough. He was the designated kicker and failed in that regard. This is a long running hang up I have, that Irish people in particular have a habit of viewing goal kicker and 10 as the same thing. To the point that I recall someone on this forum once asking if McFadden could cover 10 just cause he is a good (great!) goal kicker.

I still think Sexton was the best player on the pitch though!

Yeah_Right

I always laugh when I see people criticizing Schmidt for not picking players who don't/won't stick to his game plan. Seriously WTF!! What coach in any sport picks players who ignore the game plan? Do people think JS should just pick 15 guys and say screw tactics and strategy just throw the ball around and trust your instincts. Make it up as you go. I don't think even the Fijian 7s side do that (any more).

Yeah_Right

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I always laugh when I see people criticizing Schmidt for not picking players who don't/won't stick to his game plan. Seriously WTF!! What coach in any sport picks players who ignore the game plan? Do people think JS should just pick 15 guys and say screw tactics and strategy just throw the ball around and trust your instincts. Make it up as you go. I don't think even the Fijian 7s side do that (any more).

I thought it was interesting in the ROG documentary when he mentions that he doesn't really listen to Declan Kidney

dub_skav

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

I think that is a little over the top. I haven't seen any real harsh criticism of Schmidt. He is the best coach we have had. He is a great tactician. He does go into a game with his homework done. I have seen posters express opinions but criticism is thin enough.

Just wait, there are plenty of ridiculously harsh posts written,with fingers hovering over "submit"

I don't like that Schmidt says "Yo" all the time while he speaks.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't like that Schmidt says "Yo" all the time while he speaks.

it's actually y'[kn]ow.

prawnsambo

In other news, Fergus McFadden took part in the Captain's run this morning.

Interested Observer

prawnsambo wrote: »

In other news, Fergus McFadden took part in the Captain's run this morning.

He's the reserve back.

mangobob

dub_skav wrote: »

Just wait, there are plenty of ridiculously harsh posts written,with fingers hovering over "submit"

Indeed. I have already read plenty of criticism on this and other fora of Schmidt as a coach (as distinct from criticising various team performances or results which is absolutely fair). If such commentators are to be believed, Joe is an increasingly arrogant, dictatorial arch conservative who is averse to playing attacking rugby or offloading the ball, but instead prefers to play a Jack Charltonesque one dimensional boring style where we kick the leather off the ball and bash up through the forwards. He also displays marked favouritism in picking his old Leinster cronies and has a personal agenda against a coterie of players who he has deliberately marginalised and alienated.

Much of the criticism aimed at him is baseless, fallacious and at times (like the notion of him lacking humility) downright bonkers. As MJohnston said earlier, one is forced to the conclusion that certain people just have it in for Schmidt and are looking for any excuse to criticise him. And make no mistake, ANY excuse will do. I am absolutely convinced that even if we were to win the world cup, there would still be those who would criticise the style in which we did it, or his selection decisions, or the manner in which he fielded questions afterwards etc etc.

To be clear I certainly don't believe Joe (or anyone else) is above criticism. He is the Ireland head coach and he should be held accountable for every decision he makes or action he takes. Some of the critiques and questions raised have been perfectly fair and rational. But there is a huge difference between justifiable criticism that is based on facts and simply having a go for any old reason one can find.

irelandrover

Interested Observer wrote: »

He's the reserve back.

I heard Sexton is out and McFadden is going to play 10 because he is solid defensively and can take kicks at goal?

Nemesis

Nordi Murphy

7oakse

I believe a previous poster addressed this but when I look at the starting 15 the only player I would 100% take is Hogg. 

Granted, Huw Jones in current form vs. an undercooked Ringrose would probably get the nod but that selection is open for debate if Ringrose is in form, and hopefully, he will be. He has been rusty but in his limited game time this season but that's not to say he won't have a stormer tomorrow. 

The other one up for debate is J Gray - personally, I'd take the three 2nd rows in our squad over him. He is a brilliant player on his day but he can go missing. I'd be 99% sure that Ryan and Toner will turn up and put in a shift (in spite of Ryan's limited exp at this level) and Henderson is a beast. 

We have the capability to completely dominate them up front and slice them out wide.

If I were Schmidt I'd be looking to keep it extremely tight early doors, suffocate them, smash every single ruck and get big ball carriers carrying hard and often. They will be blowing and then we have the ability to go wide and play what's in front of us. 

On paper, we are a much better team. I will be extremely disappointed if we don't win this well.

7oakse

I believe a previous poster addressed this but when I look at the starting 15 the only player I would 100% take is Hogg. 

Granted, Huw Jones in current form vs. an undercooked Ringrose would probably get the nod but that selection is open for debate if Ringrose is in form, and hopefully, he will be. He has been rusty but in his limited game time this season but that's not to say he won't have a stormer tomorrow. 

The other one up for debate is J Gray - personally, I'd take the three 2nd rows in our squad over him. He is a brilliant player on his day but he can go missing. I'd be 99% sure that Ryan and Toner will turn up and put in a shift (in spite of Ryan's limited exp at this level) and Henderson is a beast. 

We have the capability to completely dominate them up front and slice them out wide.

If I were Schmidt I'd be looking to keep it extremely tight early doors, suffocate them, smash every single ruck and get big ball carriers carrying hard and often. They will be blowing and then we have the ability to go wide and play what's in front of us. 

On paper, we are a much better team. I will be extremely disappointed if we don't win this well.

mangobob

7oakse wrote: »

I believe a previous poster addressed this...

Indeed. That previous poster was you

Former Former

7oakse wrote: »

He is a brilliant player on his day but he can go missing.

You've said this in relation to Gray, but I think you could apply to nearly all of Scotland's best players and that's their problem.

7oakse

7oakse wrote: »

I believe a previous poster addressed this but when I look at the starting 15 the only player I would 100% take is Hogg. 

Granted, Huw Jones in current form vs. an undercooked Ringrose would probably get the nod but that selection is open for debate if Ringrose is in form, and hopefully, he will be. He has been rusty but in his limited game time this season but that's not to say he won't have a stormer tomorrow. 

The other one up for debate is J Gray - personally, I'd take the three 2nd rows in our squad over him. He is a brilliant player on his day but he can go missing. I'd be 99% sure that Ryan and Toner will turn up and put in a shift (in spite of Ryan's limited exp at this level) and Henderson is a beast. 

We have the capability to completely dominate them up front and slice them out wide.

If I were Schmidt I'd be looking to keep it extremely tight early doors, suffocate them, smash every single ruck and get big ball carriers carrying hard and often. They will be blowing and then we have the ability to go wide and play what's in front of us. 

On paper, we are a much better team. I will be extremely disappointed if we don't win this well.

I would pick Hogg at home for Ireland, I would pick Kearney away from home against Ireland without hesitation. Hogg might do more with the limited possession Scotland are likely to enjoy tomorrow, but Kearney would deny Ireland a lot of the territory game they feed off and this to me would be more beneficial.