Race Saturation point

Cartman78

Without wishing to drag the discussion off-topic too much..I think there seems to be something of a mis-conception out there about the mindset of a club runner (not just in this thread....have noticed on other threads/forums as well).

Just because you're in a club doesn't turn you into some sort of elitist snob who looks down their noses at new runners, fun-runners etc.

There is undoubtedly an element of this at the very pointy end of a race (eg. the half dozen lads who are actually racing to win) but, from my experience, most club runners are racing against themselves for PB's, with maybe a bit of healthy rivalry thrown in against a club mate or someone else who pipped them on the line a few weeks ago at another race.

So anyway, to bring it back to race saturation -

My concern would be that if a new runner's first exposure to a race is some half-arsed, unsafe and poorly organised event, then I would imagine that this would turn a lot of people away from the sport.

I had the misfortune of doing such a race a few years ago (my own fault - didn't really investigate beforehand) - it was an out and back 8K, so there was chaos as people at the front ended up wading their way through the field on the way back, while also having to contend with traffic travelling in both directions.

And to cap it off the course was about 400m short and no times were recorded or published....so basically this was just a poorly organised mass training run on open roads that you paid for to fund a new shower in the GAA club's changing rooms or something.

The event hasn't been held since I think so I would hope that a lot of these types of races are 'one and done' efforts, and people literally vote with their feet

joey1111

Cartman78 wrote: »

Without wishing to drag the discussion off-topic too much..I think there seems to be something of a mis-conception out there about the mindset of a club runner (not just in this thread....have noticed on other threads/forums as well).



So anyway, to bring it back to race saturation -

My concern would be that if a new runner's first exposure to a race is some half-arsed, unsafe and poorly organised event, then I would imagine that this would turn a lot of people away from the sport.

I had the misfortune of doing such a race a few years ago (my own fault - didn't really investigate beforehand) - it was an out and back 8K, so there was chaos as people at the front ended up wading their way through the field on the way back, while also having to contend with traffic travelling in both directions.

And to cap it off the course was about 400m short and no times were recorded or published....so basically this was just a poorly organised mass training run on open roads that you paid for to fund a new shower in the GAA club's changing rooms or something.

The event hasn't been held since I think so I would hope that a lot of these types of races are 'one and done' efforts, and people literally vote with their feet

Who are you to say theres a misconception about club runners, speak for yourself and the other bullies on Boards but not anyone else.

Id be more concerned about running into some of the people off this thread to be honest, such a passive aggressive bunch who like each others comments and back each other up whether they're right or wrong. I've seen it done to others as well. Bit of a nasty carry on really. The word 'fun'runners definitely wouldnt come to mind about some on here.

I'd rather meet competitive maniac, the constant attack on me during this thread just because you can? Would you go on like in real life with a group of friends (as an adult) towards someone on their own?

Down South

No saturation for me this weekend anyway. Mondays co championship race was cancelled wed night 😔

OOnegative

joey1111 wrote: »

Who are you to say theres a misconception about club runners, speak for yourself and the other bullies on Boards but not anyone else.

Id be more concerned about running into some of the people off this thread to be honest, such a passive aggressive bunch who like each others comments and back each other up whether they're right or wrong. I've seen it done to others as well. Bit of a nasty carry on really. The word 'fun'runners definitely wouldnt come to mind about some on here.

I'd rather meet competitive maniac, the constant attack on me during this thread just because you can? Would you go on like in real life with a group of friends (as an adult) towards someone on their own?

Yawn, put your toys back in your pram!!

Testosterscone

joey1111 wrote: »

Who are you to say theres a misconception about club runners, speak for yourself and the other bullies on Boards but not anyone else.

Id be more concerned about running into some of the people off this thread to be honest, such a passive aggressive bunch who like each others comments and back each other up whether they're right or wrong. I've seen it done to others as well. Bit of a nasty carry on really. The word 'fun'runners definitely wouldnt come to mind about some on here.

I'd rather meet competitive maniac, the constant attack on me during this thread just because you can? Would you go on like in real life with a group of friends (as an adult) towards someone on their own?

If you see bullying report it.

I don't think anyone was attacking you. I think those involved in the sport can have passionate views and differences of opinions can highlight that. The place is basically an extension of the traditional pub debates - rarely solves anything but people like to have there say.

It is normal that people who invest a lot of time and effort into the sport will have some strong opinions on the state of it. You may not agree with them and they may not agree with you but that's the beauty of a discussion board you don't have to you can walk away from any discussion at any time.

joey1111

Testosterscone wrote: »

If you see bullying report it.

I don't think anyone was attacking you. I think those involved in the sport can have passionate views and differences of opinions can highlight that. The place is basically an extension of the traditional pub debates - rarely solves anything but people like to have there say.

It is normal that people who invest a lot of time and effort into the sport will have some strong opinions on the state of it. You may not agree with them and they may not agree with you but that's the beauty of a discussion board you don't have to you can walk away from any discussion at any time.

just more back eachother up and liking comments, mild bullying. No mod would do anything. In fact Im probably in danger of a warning for not getting on with the 'gang'.

Murph_D

joey1111 wrote: »

just more back eachother up and liking comments, mild bullying. No mod would do anything. In fact Im probably in danger of a warning for not getting on with the 'gang'.

Only if someone reports you for breaching the charter. You seem to be spoiling for an argument, but as long as you keep it legal you’ll be grand. I won’t be joining in or taking the bait.

Testosterscone

joey1111 wrote: »

just more back eachother up and liking comments, mild bullying. No mod would do anything. In fact Im probably in danger of a warning for not getting on with the 'gang'.

Are people not entitled to agree with someone just as much as they are disagree?

You would go crazy trying to interpret the motives behind likes and comments. This is why all posts should be taken at face value. If someone likes posts continually without offering anything constructive to the topic, just ignore. No number of likes for or against you will make a blind bit of difference to anything, if your point is valid it's valid no matter who likes or doesn't like your post.

We don't post to be liked (or maybe I am alone in this) we post to share information, bring awareness to what we believe are possible issues within our sport and help each other and hopefully the overall sport in general.

joey1111

OOnegative wrote: »

Yawn, put your toys back in your pram!!

Testosterscone wrote: »

Are people not entitled to agree with someone just as much as they are disagree?

You would go crazy trying to interpret the motives behind likes and comments. This is why all posts should be taken at face value. If someone likes posts continually without offering anything constructive to the topic, just ignore. No number of likes for or against you will make a blind bit of difference to anything, if your point is valid it's valid no matter who likes or doesn't like your post.

We don't post to be liked (or maybe I am alone in this) we post to share information, bring awareness to what we believe are possible issues within our sport and help each other and hopefully the overall sport in general.

Here we go

joey1111

Murph_D wrote: »

Only if someone reports you for breaching the charter. You seem to be spoiling for an argument, but as long as you keep it legal you’ll be grand. I won’t be joining in or taking the bait.

you just did. and are you 'telling' me im dying for an arguement. More like you're dying to see me argueing so you and the other self righteous lot can say I told you so.



Its absolutely stressful dealing with you and the others. Thats enough of you for me.

adrian522

Good luck, I'm sure you'll be back with yet another user name before too long.

jamule

joey1111 wrote: »

you just did. and are you 'telling' me im dying for an arguement. More like you're dying to see me argueing so you and the other self righteous lot can say I told you so.



Its absolutely stressful dealing with you and the others. Thats enough of you for me.

Get out and go for a run, try a hill I heard there great.

TFBubendorfer

<mod>I've read through the last few pages twice now and I honestly cannot find anything that would be bullying. If anyone feels bullied, please use the report button and maybe tell us why you think this is bullying instead of getting into an in-thread, off-topic discussion.

Please refrain from dragging this thread off-topic, and by that I mean everyone, not just one particular user.</mod>

Testosterscone

Testosterscone wrote: »

I would argue the opposite.

Take your average local race

Prize money down,
Proliferation of the sub elite standard through overlap of races,
Continually increasing costs eroding funds raised for clubs which is used to develop grass roots athletics (differentiating between this and participation athletics) despite the upturn in numbers.

Road Running is being pushed into a middle class indulgence now due to medals, tshirts, chip timing, goody bags. Many of the established road races are probably making less off double the numbers than they used to years back. Think of the average club running college go-er, do they really have a couple of 100e a year to go on race entries alone especially now when you would be lucky to have top 3 get prize money which would not even cover travel and race entry

The drive for participation is driving out many of the developing talent emerging.

Doesn't seem to be an Irish phenomenon. The "Worlds Fastest 5k" was on at the weekend in Carlsbad. This used to be one of the premier road races (Alastair Cragg of Ireland still holds European Best set here of 13.26) in the world which was taken over by the Rock and Roll Group who added participant medals, all the bells and whistles and hacked off all the prize money

Prize structure is as follows

Elite
1st - $2000
2nd - $1000
3rd - $750
4th - $500
5th - $250

Masters
1st - 500
2nd - 250
3rd - 150

This does also not include athlete flights or accommodation.

Prior to Rock and Rock and Roll group taking over

All-Comers 5K Prize Funds
1st Place Male & Female Overall: $2,500
2nd Place Male & Female Overall: $1,500
3rd Place Male & Female Overall: $850
4th Place Male & Female Overall $500
5th Place Male & Female Overall $250
6th Place Male & Female Overall $100
Masters 1st Place Male & Female $350

PA/USATF 5K Championship Prize Funds *
PA/USATF Open Men and Women (Individuals):
1st - $500, 2nd - $350, 3rd - $250, 4th - $200, 5th - $100, 6th - $50

* Double dipping is allowed between All-Comers and PA/USATF prize purses. PA/USATF prize money is awarded to PA/USATF members only.

U.S. 5K Record Bonuses
$5,000 for the first U.S. male and/or female setting a U.S. 5K open road record.

All Elite athletes were paid for flights and accomodation

This is despite the fact that they have actually making more money from fun run element.

Prior to this year the slowest these races have ever been won in during the races 33 year history was 1987 for the men (13.36) and 1999 (15.47) for the women.

This years winning times - 14.15 and 16.00 respectively despite decent weather.

This is the same company that just bought the WMM series so can see some big changes to be made for Elite fields across the top marathons over the coming years.

AuldManKing

Testosterscone wrote: »

We don't post to be liked.......

Ahem............




:P

28064212

Relevant article: "Do we want fast times? Then let’s get back to basics…" https://www.fastrunning.com/opinion/comment/do-we-want-fast-times-then-lets-get-back-to-basics/14570

RayCun

28064212 wrote: »

Relevant article: "Do we want fast times? Then let’s get back to basics…" https://www.fastrunning.com/opinion/comment/do-we-want-fast-times-then-lets-get-back-to-basics/14570

Yeah, saw that one too.
To be honest, what it made me think was, if you want a fast, flat 5k, no walkers lined up at the start looking for medals and waving their garmins... there's always the track. Graded meets are only a fiver, the standard is high, there are no frills.

Road races have high fixed costs, so there will always be pressure to attract numbers.

Nuttzz

28064212 wrote: »

Relevant article: "Do we want fast times? Then let’s get back to basics…" https://www.fastrunning.com/opinion/comment/do-we-want-fast-times-then-lets-get-back-to-basics/14570

its a bit of a whingefest of an article

“parkrun has given joggers the divine right to hog the racing line, which is a shame as it is a fantastic event but has ruined 5k racing.”

" it’s the commercialisation of the sport we love by profiteering organisations that are ripping off runners and hurting the grass roots that are the lifeblood of athletics."

free and its rubbish, commercial and its rubbish, what is the author after? We tell people who finish at the back they are finishing ahead of those on the couch and yet complain because they take part?

Not everyone is going to be a sub 18 5k runner, do I train as hard as a sub 18 runner? I dont know but I give it my best shot physically, but should I feck off because I'm not to "the standard".

I've a lot of time of parkruns, my first 5k run was in the docklands and I wheezed around in 35 minutes, parkruns gave me the confidence and the platform to bring that down closer to 20 minutes.

Not everyone is going to the the same level, football has divisions for that reason, if race organisers explained waves and expected times properly then those at the front would have less weaving to do (night run I'm look at you!)

Swashbuckler

Nuttzz wrote:

Not everyone is going to the the same level, football has divisions for that reason, if race organisers explained waves and expected times properly then those at the front would have less weaving to do (night run I'm look at you!)

I've seen waves explained properly and I still had walkers and people with dogs on leashes ahead of me. If people want to shove to the front they will and all the explaining in the world won't matter.

RayCun

Yeah, it takes more than explaining, it takes pens with qualifying times, identifiable bib numbers, and people enforcing the pens.

Slow_Runner

Nuttzz wrote: »

its a bit of a whingefest of an article

“parkrun has given joggers the divine right to hog the racing line, which is a shame as it is a fantastic event but has ruined 5k racing.”

" it’s the commercialisation of the sport we love by profiteering organisations that are ripping off runners and hurting the grass roots that are the lifeblood of athletics."

free and its rubbish, commercial and its rubbish, what is the author after? We tell people who finish at the back they are finishing ahead of those on the couch and yet complain because they take part?

Not everyone is going to be a sub 18 5k runner, do I train as hard as a sub 18 runner? I dont know but I give it my best shot physically, but should I feck off because I'm not to "the standard".

I've a lot of time of parkruns, my first 5k run was in the docklands and I wheezed around in 35 minutes, parkruns gave me the confidence and the platform to bring that down closer to 20 minutes.

Not everyone is going to the the same level, football has divisions for that reason, if race organisers explained waves and expected times properly then those at the front would have less weaving to do (night run I'm look at you!)

Thought it was a good article but thought it came across as dismissive of the mid/back of pack runner which I don't believe was the intention - just came across wrong with that 1 line about park runners hogging the line!!
What the article didn't broach was due to the amount of events taking place and a lot with prize money the faster runners are going to pick races with little competition to them so they can pick up the cheque (can't blame them really) so this has a lot to do with lack of fast competitive races.
Not much can be done about people in wrong waves/up the front with buggies/dogs, granted a marshall can ask someone with a buggy/dog to move to the back but they can't single out someone they "think" is a slower runner , all they can do is keep reinforcing the importance of starting in the correct place. As races get bigger it's taking longer to get across the start line especially as a lot of 5/10k are gun time only (bigger cost to have a start mat)

Nuttzz

RayCun wrote: »

Yeah, it takes more than explaining, it takes pens with qualifying times, identifiable bib numbers, and people enforcing the pens.

the last bit is probably the weakness of any race, due to the volunteer aspect of marshalling.

I've seen in the past where people were late to sign up to the dublin marathon and end up in wave 4 and try to get into the earlier waves, if you have picked the wrong wave or left it late to apply then you need to accept some sort of personal responsibility for it.

We're probably never going to eliminate the walker, dog runner from heading up front but I think people will naturally choose the better organised races, but I can see even in my local parkrun when they have pacers people tend to police themselves and start beside or behind their realistic time, whereas when there are no pacers its just a free for all.

Ultraman100

Slow_Runner wrote: »

especially as a lot of 5/10k are gun time only (bigger cost to have a start mat)

u shud shop around.:)

2 races in May in the Running in Munster blog calendar.

Swashbuckler

Deleted User wrote:

2 races in May in the Running in Munster blog calendar.

Lindienaughton.blogspot would be a more accurate reflection of what's going on in May

Slow_Runner

Ultraman100 wrote: »

Slow_Runner;106703095 especially as a lot of 5/10k are gun time only (bigger cost to have a start mat)
u shud shop around.:)

squirrel84

Slow_Runner wrote: »

I'm one of the organizers for the Kilcock 10 mile and we started last November trying to pick a date that didn't clash with other races in Leinster which was surprisingly difficult. Ironically we picked the 10 mile distance as we thought there was a gap for this distance and there was plenty of 1/2 marathons scheduled. Also looking at the numbers the likes of Trim and Ballycotton (rip) get in the run up to spring marathons there is definitely a demand. 
I think the reason for the clustering of all these races is they are scheduled and marketed as tune up races to Autumn marathons - our own race's selling point is 10 miles, 10 weeks out from DCM (hence the "10 from 10") so you have a small window in which to pitch your race, very fwe people would have a 10 mile as a target race unlike 5/10ks and HMs
The races listed by the OP I think, geographically speaking, are not really clashing - Roscommon and Monaghan are accessible to the West and North so will get the numbers. Only real clash is ourselves and Frank Duffy :angel:, while FD is a fantastic race we thought there was room for an alternative away from the park(this was before it moved to Fingal which means there is even more of a gap!).
[font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]One thing about a lot of races is it will force competition and innovation for the race organizers which can only be a good thing for the runners.[/font]



First year for this one. We're aiming to have the same small club race feel for a bigger event, friendly, accessible and big spread afterwards. Oh and its going to be flat - very flat :).

Is the Kilcock 10 miler AAI certified & measured?

Slow_Runner

squirrel84 wrote: »

Is the Kilcock 10 miler AAI certified & measured?

Yes it is - to get an AAI license you need to have an approved course measure and risk assessmnet. We've got approval from Waterways Ireland to use part of the new greenway so we will be getting the course officially measured soon. Keep an eye on the facebook page as the course video will be posted soon.

Slow_Runner

squirrel84 wrote: »

Is the Kilcock 10 miler AAI certified & measured?

Yes it is - to get an AAI license you need to have an approved course measure and risk assessmnet. We've got approval from Waterways Ireland to use part of the new greenway so we will be getting the course officially measured soon. Keep an eye on the facebook page as the course video will be posted soon.