Race Saturation point

Testosterscone

Sunny Dayz wrote: »

Obviously there will be a tipping point. I'd imagine if you were in Dublin you'd have a choice of races of some distance or another almost every weekend. However where I am there's not a great choice and I do have to travel a bit if I want a race and then I have to really want to do it.


I think the tipping point will come about when the cost of organising races and the increasing price of race entries reaches a point - what that point is I don't know. But it will get to the stage where organisers will be tied to a particular entry price in order to make the run viable but then not attract enough entries.
This is what has happened from what I can see in motorsport, the cost of putting on a rally has increased, there was a rally on nearly every weekend and competitors couldn't afford to compete in as many, and then the rally wouldn't have enough competitors to cover costs. So many events, mainly smaller ones have be cancelled for this year.

There is a counter movement unfortunately already creeping in. Virtual Racing, same price as many of the local races with none of the same overheads outside of a medal and P+P

Testosterscone

joey1111 wrote: »

If anything its making everything more competitive, lower prices, drumming up more interest. We might even garner more interest in the sport and produce a star or two.

I would argue the opposite.

Take your average local race

Prize money down,
Proliferation of the sub elite standard through overlap of races,
Continually increasing costs eroding funds raised for clubs which is used to develop grass roots athletics (differentiating between this and participation athletics) despite the upturn in numbers.

Road Running is being pushed into a middle class indulgence now due to medals, tshirts, chip timing, goody bags. Many of the established road races are probably making less off double the numbers than they used to years back. Think of the average club running college go-er, do they really have a couple of 100e a year to go on race entries alone especially now when you would be lucky to have top 3 get prize money which would not even cover travel and race entry

The drive for participation is driving out many of the developing talent emerging.

joey1111

Testosterscone wrote: »

I would argue the opposite.

Take your average local race

Prize money down,
Proliferation of the sub elite standard through overlap of races,
Continually increasing costs eroding funds raised for clubs which is used to develop grass roots athletics (differentiating between this and participation athletics)

Road Running is being pushed into a middle class indulgence. Think of the average club running college go-er, do they really have a couple of 100e a year to go on race entries alone especially now when you would be lucky to have top 3 get prize money which would not even cover travel and race entry

The drive for participation is driving out many of the developing talent emerging.

Well lets be honest the prize money was always crap to begin with, i doubt any of the elites in Ireland would choose to go abroad or coach or work in their spare time if there was any money in athletics. But I wont flog a dead horse on that issue.

Yeah I agree to a certain level about proliferation of sub elites but I'm sure some of the guys who never get a look in - always the bridesmaids are delighted to see a chance to win a race or be in the top three.

I dont know that much about eroding costs etc, Raycun can argue about that.

We simply have no support from the top and it goes back to the aged arguement about Athletics not being promoted by the ministers...money etc.

I still dont see saturation until we get to the point where clubs/promotors stop their races etc.

Testosterscone

joey1111 wrote: »

Well lets be honest the prize money was always crap to begin with, i doubt any of the elites in Ireland would choose to go abroad or coach or work in their spare time if there was any money in athletics. But I wont flog a dead horse on that issue.

Yeah I agree to a certain level about proliferation of sub elites but I'm sure some of the guys who never get a look in - always the bridesmaids are delighted to see a chance to win a race or be in the top three.

I dont know that much about eroding costs etc, Raycun can argue about that.

We simply have no support from the top and it goes back to the aged arguement about Athletics not being promoted by the ministers...money etc.

I still dont see saturation until we get to the point where clubs/promotors stop their races etc.

Was it always crap? A video cropped up on my FB last week of the Sportsworld race back in 1991. It was a world best at the time quicker than Salazar. The breakdown of prize money was interesting (as well as the standard. Should also be noted that they had 1/4 of the modern day fields for the same race.

http://more.arrs.net/race/5305

I don't think it needs to come from top. There is plenty of money in the sport that is the most infuriating thing. There is literally 10s and possible 100s of thousands going into race entries on a weekly basis. No other sport in this country has that sort of money (debatable whether GAA match day tickets rival) without even including the clothes and shoes being bought.

With that sort of money being put in why are the margins being squeezed so tight and why can we only afford one paid coach in this country??

There are plenty of races who have pulled out but the gaps are usually jumped on and an inferior race usually comes in cutting another corner to save costs. it is also interesting to see the rise of race organizers with affiliations to medal companies, t shirt companies or medal hangers and other accessories. Or indeed full time charity workers.

Safiri

Down here, it's actually gone quite different except maybe the Ennis split this year. Non permit fun runs seems to have gone the way of the dinosuars. A lot of the old Club run races are booming and selling out in no time. Our own club 10k has never had as much demand as it has in the last few years.

Standards across the board seem to be slowly rising, A senior athlete who hasn't lost a championship race in 8 years barely scrapped top 5 in the last championship race. More AI affliated clubs are forming and making an impact at club championship level and better juvenile systems are in place with new and repaired facilities on the horizon.

Know Dublin is a different kettle of fish but only 3 or 4 years ago; I couldn't see what's starting to develop down here ever happening.

joey1111

Testosterscone wrote: »

Was it always crap? A video cropped up on my FB last week of the Sportsworld race back in 1991. It was a world best at the time quicker than Salazar. The breakdown of prize money was interesting (as well as the standard. Should also be noted that they had 1/4 of the modern day fields for the same race.

http://more.arrs.net/race/5305

I don't think it needs to come from top. There is plenty of money in the sport that is the most infuriating thing. There is literally 10s and possible 100s of thousands going into race entries on a weekly basis. No other sport in this country has that sort of money (debatable whether GAA match day tickets rival) without even including the clothes and shoes being bought.

With that sort of money being put in why are the margins being squeezed so tight and why can we only afford one paid coach in this country??

There are plenty of races who have pulled out but the gaps are usually jumped on and an inferior race usually comes in cutting another corner to save costs. it is also interesting to see the rise of race organizers with affiliations to medal companies, t shirt companies or medal hangers and other accessories. Or indeed full time charity workers.

I'd have to do a bit of research about prize money to agree or disagree. What prize money did women get for example?

I remember going around with my dad as a kid and never ever remember the prize money being memorable.

Theres definitely not enough to make someone take up athletics like the way they would with other sports.

Havnt the likes of GAA and Rugby players in the past anyway almost being accertained a career outside of their sport if they became a national player?

I think it does need to come from the top, when do you ever see adverts about athletics the way you do about GAA or Rugby?

Very little tv coverage
International meets?
Only recently getting decent stadiums
Elite athletes making 20 odd grand a year

This all needs to come from the top.

And what is the answer to your own question about where the money is going?

Testosterscone

joey1111 wrote: »

I'd have to do a bit of research about prize money to agree or disagree. What prize money did women get for example?

I remember going around with my dad as a kid and never ever remember the prize money being memorable.

Theres definitely not enough to make someone take up athletics like the way they would with other sports.

Havnt the likes of GAA and Rugby players in the past anyway almost being accertained a career outside of their sport if they became a national player?

I think it does need to come from the top, when do you ever see adverts about athletics the way you do about GAA or Rugby?

Very little tv coverage
International meets?
Only recently getting decent stadiums
Elite athletes making 20 odd grand a year

This all needs to come from the top.

And what is the answer to your own question about where the money is going?

Its not about attracting people into the sport. We manage to get them in at juvenile level but it's the huge drop off rates that are the issue or the fact that only 11% of all AAI members are between 20-35. No one will become a millionaire out of the sport but if it could pay your way through these years you would be surprised how many you might keep (just look at the blogger generation who basically live off free stuff rather than actually making a sustainable living with a secure further)

Regarding the money this is the issue. Events Management companies (AAI paying them a nice chunk for there services) Medal companies, T shirt companies, insurance, Garda overtime. all these overheads mean that despite the numbers dramatically going up in terms of numbers of races and etc. The numbers aren't outweighing the rising costs in any significant way and the more races that come in undercut this even further (larger numbers will reduce overheads of medals etc through buying in bulk rather that 4/5 smaller races.

Someone made the point earlier that these days there is almost no point in putting on a low key race unless you pull in a atleast 200 people this threshold of viability continues to rise while the pool of runners continues to be diluted through more and more races.

As said plenty of money in the sport but very little of it actually staying there sadly

robinph

Testosterscone wrote: »

Road Running is being pushed into a middle class indulgence now due to medals, tshirts, chip timing, goody bags.

Mass participation road running has always been a middle class activity. People at the real pointy end of things are a more diverse bunch than those in the middle of the pack. You need spare time and money on your hands to be able to indulge in not winning races as a hobby.

joey1111

Testosterscone wrote: »

Its not about attracting people into the sport. We manage to get them in at juvenile level but it's the huge drop off rates that are the issue or the fact that only 11% of all AAI members are between 20-35. No one will become a millionaire out of the sport but if it could pay your way through these years you would be surprised how many you might keep (just look at the blogger generation who basically live off free stuff rather than actually making a sustainable living with a secure further)

Regarding the money this is the issue. Events Management companies (AAI paying them a nice chunk for there services) Medal companies, T shirt companies, insurance, Garda overtime. all these overheads mean that despite the numbers dramatically going up in terms of numbers of races and etc. The numbers aren't outweighing the rising costs in any significant way and the more races that come in undercut this even further (larger numbers will reduce overheads of medals etc through buying in bulk rather that 4/5 smaller races.

Someone made the point earlier that these days there is almost no point in putting on a low key race unless you pull in a atleast 200 people this threshold of viability continues to rise while the pool of runners continues to be diluted through more and more races.

As said plenty of money in the sport but very little of it actually staying there sadly

But the whole keeping them there is part of the money and promotion not coming from the top.
When the kids finish their leaving cert a lot of them dont want to have to travel to another country to develop. They cant afford to give all their time to the sport at home. Most of them coming up who are any use and staying at home are studying 3rd level as well, coming from money etc.

I see the whole scenario of racing in this country as its own little niche, involving the community, creating revenue for the club to keep running, Operating transformation etc.

I wouldnt in a million years see this local racing thing as being something part of the revenue for developing athletes.

We need some decent scholarship programmes and more advertising for the sport, televise it, sex it up. Make the kids want to stay in Ireland and develop them here. Market Ireland as a place to hold meets.

Hurrache

robinph wrote: »

Mass participation road running has always been a middle class activity.

Maybe more so these days, but it certainly wasn't always a middle class activity.

Ultraman100

Testosterscone wrote: »

Regarding the money this is the issue. Events Management companies (AAI paying them a nice chunk for there services) Medal companies, T shirt companies, insurance, Garda overtime. all these overheads mean that despite the numbers dramatically going up in terms of numbers of races and etc. The numbers aren't outweighing the rising costs in any significant way and the more races that come in undercut this even further (larger numbers will reduce overheads of medals etc through buying in bulk rather that 4/5 smaller races.

Someone made the point earlier that these days there is almost no point in putting on a low key race unless you pull in a atleast 200 people this threshold of viability continues to rise while the pool of runners continues to be diluted through more and more races.

As said plenty of money in the sport but very little of it actually staying there sadly

costs are crippling clubs that want to put on a race..people lookin for medals,chip timing,tee shirts,free food after a race,road closuresetc i know of one club race that had 400+ entrants and made fock all..first question mist people ask is "is there a medal" theres 4 quid per person gone straight away down the swanny

joey1111

Ultraman100 wrote: »

costs are crippling clubs that want to put on a race..people lookin for medals,chip timing,tee shirts,free food after a race,road closuresetc i know of one club race that had 400+ entrants and made fock all..first question mist people ask is "is there a medal" theres 4 quid per person gone straight away down the swanny

what one was that?

Ultraman100

joey1111 wrote: »

what one was that?

yea rite

joey1111

Ultraman100 wrote: »

yea rite

Sorry did I ask something unreasonable or was I being rude?
You're the one telling us about a club that didnt make anything, reasonable enough to ask you to back up what you're on about.

Ultraman100

joey1111 wrote: »

Sorry did I ask something unreasonable or was I being rude?
You're the one telling us about a club that didnt make anything, reasonable enough to ask you to back up what you're on about.

just makin the point of where the money goes..dosent go to clubs and dosent go to aai...wether u believe it or not means fock all to me

RayCun

I don't think its a good idea to get into discussing individual races. Ultraman does race measurement so he works with a few.

RayCun

But is it a good idea to have lots of races with less than 500 people? Paper thin fields, no money for prizes, hard to get road closures... Better to have races around the 1000 mark, which might mean clubs working together on a race rather than each having their own.

(We sometimes talk about putting on a race, but between finding space in calendar, road closures, and something to make it stand out, I don't think we could put on a big one, and I'm not interested in a small one)

SeeMoreBut

What’s it with races selling out so far ahead. People are entering races just to have an entry without even knowing if they’ll do it. Cause jimmy is said he’ll do it then another 5-10 enter and half don’t do it

robinph

Most of the regular races over here would be in the 200-400 range of participants. No medals or prizes (other than a few bottles of cheap wine), no tshirts, most wouldn't have chip timing. There are several nearby which are on each month on different week nights so usually something each week through the year.

Longer events on the weekend would also rarely be in numbers up towards the 1000s unless they are a really big event.

RayCun

robinph wrote: »

Most of the regular races over here would be in the 200-400 range of participants. No medals or prizes (other than a few bottles of cheap wine), no tshirts, most wouldn't have chip timing. There are several nearby which are on each month on different week nights so usually something each week through the year.

Longer events on the weekend would also rarely be in numbers up towards the 1000s unless they are a really big event.

How much are they to enter?
I presume not on closed roads?

dublin runner

Again, I hate this phrase but there's no joined up thinking.

A quick example, from the top of my head. Take a Leinster County with an average population count. Let's say this county has 8 clubs. If those 8 clubs came together and set-up a County Race Series - 8 clubs, 8 races. It simply economies of scale - sign up with stakeholders and receive the financial benefit that I know first hand exists. If every club had to guarantee 20 members competing in each race that's at least 160 people lining up. 8 races spread out across the year with decent numbers and decent standard (helped by attending club members). It also works for competitors with associated benefits of signing up (discounts etc.). I know similar initiatives happen in some counties but not near enough. This does though avoid the elephant in the room which is the lack of a Master Fixture Plan; county, province and lastly, nationally.

On this point, the current social media drive for a three course meal, a glass of prosecco and a foot massage etc. at the end of a race is slowly going to kill the sport. Just bloody run and go home!

Ultraman100

dublin runner wrote: »

Just bloody run and go home!

i agree ...

robinph

RayCun wrote: »

How much are they to enter?
I presume not on closed roads?

It varies, but might be from £5 per individual race or £28 for a full series of 9 races through the year.

Might be on river towpaths, seafront paths, cycle path along an old railway line and some around the roads of an industrial estate. They are mostly club runners taking part, but with a fair smattering of non-affiliated runners from other running groups that are not yet clubs.

One of the series did struggle a year or so ago, but that has now revived as a new generation of people within the same club have taken over from the old guard who were getting a bit long in the tooth to keep it going. The races are all generally close to capacity these days.

Annie get your Run

Ultraman100 wrote: »

i agree ...

Isn't there a t-shirt for doing that :pac::pac:

Murph_D

Annie get your Run wrote: »

Isn't there a t-shirt for doing that :pac::pac:

Medal too - bigger one than usual this year!

average_runner

Ultraman100 wrote: »

costs are crippling clubs that want to put on a race..people lookin for medals,chip timing,tee shirts,free food after a race,road closuresetc i know of one club race that had 400+ entrants and made fock all..first question mist people ask is "is there a medal" theres 4 quid per person gone straight away down the swanny

To be honest chip timing, safe roads are the only thing I look for.

joey1111

Ultraman100 wrote: »

costs are crippling clubs that want to put on a race..people lookin for medals,chip timing,tee shirts,free food after a race,road closuresetc i know of one club race that had 400+ entrants and made fock all..first question mist people ask is "is there a medal" theres 4 quid per person gone straight away down the swanny

Although I agree people will always look for as much as possible if they can get away with it. Its always been pretty standard to offer a t-shirt or medal. Spread after a race go back to the club.

Road closures would be mandatory for some races, if the club cant comfortably provide safety then they shouldn't even think of hosting a race.

Theres honestly nothing new written there. Maybe more want medals now but the same crowd are happy to forfeit a t-shirt for one even if thats pretty ridiculous to some people.

OOnegative

joey1111 wrote: »

Its always been pretty standard to offer a t-shirt.

Go the way of most races on the continent, make people pay for there t-shirt if they want one. How many would want one then?

joey1111

OOnegative wrote: »

Go the way of most races on the continent, make people pay for there t-shirt if they want one. How many would want one then?

Thats a good idea, i think myself most club runners would be happy with a chip timed race and a few sandwiches and a chat with their pals.

Anyone outside of that may pay for their t-shirts or get a cheap medal.

Annie get your Run

joey1111 wrote: »

Although I agree people will always look for as much as possible if they can get away with it. Its always been pretty standard to offer a t-shirt or medal. Spread after a race go back to the club.

.

I think BHAA would be classified as successful races, they don't offer either of those. They are known for their post race spread though. I'm not convinced you have to offer tshirt and medal to be a success..