Overrated GAA Players

Powerhouse

Whiteladder wrote: »

But I am glad you agree he sticks his chest out.

.

I didn't agree. I just didn't dispute it as it seems relevant only in showing your issue with him to be a personal dislike rather than a qualified judgement. It's not fir me to tell you who you should and shouldn't like.

dirtyden

Faiche Ro wrote: »

It is indeed and it often enhances your prospects of winning if you avoid hitting the ball near the opposing teams strongest player.
Since he made his debut almost 10 years ago I would say there are only 2 half backs that were better than him. Tommy and JJ.
Your entitled to your opinion but it’s wrong.

I am a bit biased but I think when Maher finally retires from inter county he may even be considered on a par with those two legends. I think you are right to have them above him now, but the consistent excellence Paudie has demonstrated over the last 5 years I believe has been somewhat under recognized and not over rated.

Powerhouse

blanch152 wrote: »

Over-rated players?

Well, 7 Mayo players won an All-Star last year despite not winning a single title and barely escaping relegation from Division 1. By any objective grounds, some of them must be over-rated.

Mayo played ten matches in that 2017 championship, half of them against against teams from Division 2 and 3 of the League, and one against a team which lost all bar one match in Division 1. At the end of the 70 minutes in SIX of the matches they were either only level or behind. Only in four of them did they do the straightforward thing and win the match in regulation time. Dublin would have slaughtered most of the same opposition by half-time. But instead Mayo seemed to be rewarded by the All-Stars for being drawn into arm-wrestles by very ordinary teams.

Powerhouse

mickeyk wrote: »

Yes I understand that, it’s not the only measure though. These awards can be something of a popularity contest at times. Most of the players mentioned so far would have received all stars and various awards and that is why they are being discussed. These awards are nice to have but are not conclusive evidence that one player is better than another, or indeed that a player is overrated.

Playing for one of the better teams dramatically increases your chances of winning one for example, while an equivalent player in a weaker county will struggle to get that recognition unless they are truly exceptional.

Nobody said that All-Star awards are conclusive evidence that one player is better than another. But when there is a huge disparity between a player's achievements in a team and with a team and what happens in the All-Stars it does add weight to the question of whether someone is overrated or not.

Diarmuid Connolly is a prime example. Five All-Irelands and a big profile - one of the best known and most recognised footballers in the country. To give just one example, he started playing for Dublin before Rory O'Carroll, has played nearly twice as many games for the county as O'Carroll did. O'Carroll finished playing for Dublin in 2015. Connolly has won two All-Ireland medals since then and has played in a team that has scarcely lost a game since. But they have the same number of All-Star awards as has the Mayo goalkeeper David Clarke. Hard to see how Connolly is overrated in that context.

All-Stars are an excellent way of judging who's overrated and who isn't. Yes, of course they are to some extent a popularity contest but that's part of the overrating process. Yes, some players get into a groove where they are automatic picks and are not really committed to the same analysis as others. But again that's what overrating is about i.e. not shining the same light on some players performances as others and finding the same fault.

People are not inclined to overrate people that don't like. And of course journalists are as susceptible to personal likes and dislikes as anyone else and having their judgements impaired by that. But it is not a separate matter to overrating a player. It is part and parcel of the same thing.

The All-Stars also, as I have already said, give a measurable way of judging these things. Otherwise we are into stories about what someone said on a website or in a pub which nobody remembers or can verify.

Whiteladder

Faiche Ro wrote: »

It is indeed and it often enhances your prospects of winning if you avoid hitting the ball near the opposing teams strongest player.
Since he made his debut almost 10 years ago I would say there are only 2 half backs that were better than him. Tommy and JJ.
Your entitled to your opinion but it’s wrong.

Opinions are flawed if unsupported with fact and I'm happy to back mine up if required unlike yourself. Besides, I've seldom seen anyone get the better of Tommy Walsh and I can't remember off the top of my head anyone ever getting the better of JJ over the course of a full game. It has happened to Padraic Maher on a number of occasions.

Also, both of those guys could hurl in both defensive lines and Tommy could hurl on every line on the field. As I said, he's a very good player, but talking of him in the same vein as these guys just proves my point.

As for being Tipps strongest player, physically - probably, a good leader - absolutely, inspirational - definitely. But there are better hurlers on that team than him.

Powerhouse

Whiteladder wrote: »

Opinions are flawed if unsupported with fact and I'm happy to back mine up if required unlike yourself. Besides, I've seldom seen anyone get the better of Tommy Walsh and I can't remember off the top of my head anyone ever getting the better of JJ over the course of a full game. It has happened to Padraic Maher on a number of occasions.

Also, both of those guys could hurl in both defensive lines and Tommy could hurl on every line on the field. As I said, he's a very good player, but talking of him in the same vein as these guys just proves my point.

Eoin Kelly 2009 All Ireland Final has the better of Delaney. Seamus Callanan scored 0-5 and 2-3 from play off him in the 2014 finals. Danny Sutcliffe essentially retired Tommy Walsh in 2014 by blitzing him a few times. These were great players but saying they were never bettered is a huge claim.

Now can you give us some examples of the "number of occasions" that Maher was bettered by opposition players.

Tell me how

Powerhouse wrote:

Danny Sutcliffe essentially retired Tommy Walsh in 2014 by blitzing him a few times.

To be fair, that day comes to everyone. It's wrong to judge them at their peak by the moment the legs went.

Tommy was one of my favourite hurlers to watch in my lifetime so far. Won All-Stars every year from 03, to 11! Across defence, midfield and attack!!

I don't think you're saying he was overrated, just in case, I'm countering early.

The_Honeybadger

Powerhouse wrote: »

Nobody said that All-Star awards are conclusive evidence that one player is better than another. But when there is a huge disparity between a player's achievements in a team and with a team and what happens in the All-Stars it does add weight to the question of whether someone is overrated or not.

Diarmuid Connolly is a prime example. Five All-Irelands and a big profile - one of the best known and most recognised footballers in the country. To give just one example, he started playing for Dublin before Rory O'Carroll, has played nearly twice as many games for the county as O'Carroll did. O'Carroll finished playing for Dublin in 2015. Connolly has won two All-Ireland medals since then and has played in a team that has scarcely lost a game since. But they have the same number of All-Star awards as has the Mayo goalkeeper David Clarke. Hard to see how Connolly is overrated in that context.

All-Stars are an excellent way of judging who's overrated and who isn't. Yes, of course they are to some extent a popularity contest but that's part of the overrating process. Yes, some players get into a groove where they are automatic picks and are not really committed to the same analysis as others. But again that's what overrating is about i.e. not shining the same light on some players performances as others and finding the same fault.

People are not inclined to overrate people that don't like. And of course journalists are as susceptible to personal likes and dislikes as anyone else and having their judgements impaired by that. But it is not a separate matter to overrating a player. It is part and parcel of the same thing.

The All-Stars also, as I have already said, give a measurable way of judging these things. Otherwise we are into stories about what someone said on a website or in a pub which nobody remembers or can verify.

It’s one yardstick, and not the most relevant in my view. Only an hour ago above you wrote a post about how flawed the selection process is.

I am not going to resurrect the Connolly debate so let’s look at Cluxton. No All Star the past couple of years, which is farcical. Is he underrated as a result? I would argue not. He is regarded by most fans and commentators as the GOAT. Nobody considers or cares that he was omitted from the all star team and if the subject comes up it’s dismissed out of hand as a factor in him being the GOAT.

The great unwashed fan on the street like myself does not measure a player by how many awards they have won. Each year when the all stars are announced there is a bit of a brouhaha about who is in and who is out but it’s forgotten soon after.

I grew up watching Kerry and my favourite player was Maurice Fitzgerald. I have no idea how many all stars he has, honestly no idea, I’ll bet if you asked the great man himself he’d have to think for a minute. Similarly when we had our great team throughout the 00’s, I loved watching these guys but ask me how many awards each has won and I couldn’t tell you. It does not colour my view of any of the individual players from that team.

I go to and watch a lot of games and judge players by what I see in front of me. Awards are nice to have but I think you are putting way too much stock in them. The views of the hardcore fan base of a county will tell you a lot more about a player than an annual award picked by well fed journalists.

Powerhouse

Tell me how wrote: »

To be fair, that day comes to everyone. It's wrong to judge them at their peak by the moment the legs went.

Tommy was one of my favourite hurlers to watch in my lifetime so far. Won All-Stars every year from 03, to 11! Across defence, midfield and attack!!

I don't think you're saying he was overrated, just in case, I'm countering early.

Walsh was 30 years old at the time. Hardly ancient. But let's at least acknowledge that it happened. And, even though this is not about Walsh, I never get the big deal about him winning awards across defence midfield and attack. Brick Walsh did the same without half the fuss being made about it and at least Brick actually played midfield for Waterford unlike Tommy Walsh who got a midfield award only because he wasn't going to make the team at wing-forward where he was playing at the time.

Powerhouse

mickeyk wrote: »

It’s one yardstick, and not the most relevant in my view.

What is the most relevant yardstick?

Powerhouse

Tell me how wrote: »

Tommy was one of my favourite hurlers to watch in my lifetime so far. Won All-Stars every year from 03, to 11! Across defence, midfield and attack!!

According to another poster "The great unwashed fan on the street like myself does not measure a player by how many awards they have won."

I presume this tendency of yours to point to All-Star awards means that you shower fairly regularly yourself?

The_Honeybadger

Powerhouse wrote: »

What is the most relevant yardstick?

See the detailed post above mate. I’ll say no more.

I think you are clinging to the all stars because it supports your argument. Yes it’s a measurable factor but just not that important to most fans, or players I suspect.

Powerhouse

mickeyk wrote: »

See the detailed post above mate. I’ll say no more.

I think you are clinging to the all stars because it supports your argument. Yes it’s a measurable factor but just not that important to most fans, or players I suspect.

I'll take it you have nothing to say on it then.

Yes, I do tend to cling to things that support my argument because that's where my argument comes from. It's a quaint old idea of mine, not universally popular mind you, to look at evidence in advance of developing an argument.

If you suspect All-Star awards are not important to players you are very naïve. I'd say nothing boosts the ego quite like an All-Star. Behind the "fierce nice fella off the pitch too" façade promoted by some in the media players are ferociously competitive about individual awards. Fans are too to be honest - you saw the mentioning of Tommy Walsh's All-Stars in another post here and you wouldn't be long discussing him with anyone when him winning All-Stars in different positions is raised in evidence - but obviously in your case emphasis on All-Stars doesn't support your argument so you won't cling to it.

Whiteladder

Powerhouse wrote: »

These were great players but saying they were never bettered is a huge claim.

Can you point out to me where I said they were never bettered?

danganabu

Whiteladder wrote: »

As for being Tipps strongest player, physically - probably, a good leader - absolutely, inspirational - definitely. But there are better hurlers on that team than him.

So he is physically strong, a good leader and an inspirational player, but is overrated, dig up man dig up

The_Honeybadger

Powerhouse wrote: »

I'll take it you have nothing to say on it then.

Yes, I do tend to cling to things that support my argument because that's where my argument comes from. It's a quaint old idea of mine, not universally popular mind you, to look at evidence in advance of developing an argument.

If you suspect All-Star awards are not important to players you are very naïve. I'd say nothing boosts the ego quite like an All-Star. Behind the "fierce nice fella off the pitch too" façade promoted by some in the media players are ferociously competitive about individual awards. Fans are too to be honest - you saw the mentioning of Tommy Walsh's All-Stars in another post here and you wouldn't be long discussing him with anyone when him winning All-Stars in different positions is raised in evidence - but obviously in your case emphasis on All-Stars doesn't support your argument so you won't cling to it.

We’ll agree to disagree. I very much doubt Diarmuid Connolly or Stephen Cluxton were that put out when they were overlooked for All Stars. They probably should have more, but I really don’t think it will mean a damn thing when history will look back on them and their achievements. Perhaps I am naive as you say.

Powerhouse

mickeyk wrote: »

.

I am not going to resurrect the Connolly debate so let’s look at Cluxton. No All Star the past couple of years, which is farcical. Is he underrated as a result? I would argue not. He is regarded by most fans and commentators as the GOAT. Nobody considers or cares that he was omitted from the all star team and if the subject comes up it’s dismissed out of hand as a factor in him being the GOAT.

The reason the All-Star thing might not affect Cluxton is that he already has five awards and no goalkeeper has more. Yes there are oddities around it in that he won three of the awards before even playing in an All-Ireland final and yet when Dublin has won three in a row he was deemed unworthy of an award in all three years. They do seem to have dried up for some reason but he has been recognised. His All-Stars equal his number of All-Irelands which is a fair record.

The_Honeybadger

Powerhouse wrote: »

The reason the All-Star thing might not affect Cluxton is that he already has five awards and no goalkeeper has more. Yes there are oddities around it in that he won three of the awards before even playing in an All-Ireland final and yet when Dublin has won three in a row he was deemed unworthy of an award in all three years. They do seem to have dried up for some reason but he has been recognised. His All-Stars equal his number of All-Irelands which is a fair record.

It may also not effect him because nobody but you has more than a passing interest.

Whiteladder

Powerhouse wrote: »

Now can you give us some examples of the "number of occasions" that Maher was bettered by opposition players.

Off the top of my head there was the Munster Championship vs Cork 2017. The All ireland Semi Final vs Galway 2015. The 2014 qualifier vs Galway. 2010 Munster Championship vs Cork.

Whiteladder

danganabu wrote: »

So he is physically strong, a good leader and an inspirational player, but is overrated, dig up man dig up

And you would like to contribute how? I think I outlined earlier why I think he is overrated. Have a read of all posts rather than dipping in an out.

danganabu

mickeyk wrote: »

It may also not effect him because nobody but you has more than a passing interest.

Thats clearly not true or have you read tis thread or any thread that the Mayo v Dublin shi*e kicks off, it is clerly something that very much irks Dublin supporters.

The_Honeybadger

danganabu wrote: »

Thats clearly not true or have you read tis thread or any thread that the Mayo v Dublin shi*e kicks off, it is clerly something that very much irks Dublin supporters.

I stand corrected. I will say from my own POV he is the best to have played the game and I don’t factor in how many individual awards he has won. Maybe it’s something that a lot of people care about, I’m only speaking for myself. I can’t understand why anybody would get upset about it.

Powerhouse

mickeyk wrote: »

We’ll agree to disagree. I very much doubt Diarmuid Connolly or Stephen Cluxton were that put out when they were overlooked for All Stars. They probably should have more, but I really don’t think it will mean a damn thing when history will look back on them and their achievements. Perhaps I am naive as you say.

That is probably true but then again we are talking about evidence of being overrated right now and not how history will look on the players. At the same time, look at Tommy Walsh...............his All-Star record is always the second or third sentence from those who promote him. So maybe it does matter in the longer run.

Hopefully history and the passage of time will create a more reflective environment in which to judge players. But I have no doubt that in 30 years' time you'll have some guy who never saw Cluxton or Connolly play judging them at least to some extent by the number of awards before declaring his current hero the greatest of ALL TIME.

danganabu

Whiteladder wrote: »

And you would like to contribute how? I think I outlined earlier why I think he is overrated. Have a read of all posts rather than dipping in an out.

lol no you didnt and you were asked for examples of all these times where he has been comprehensively beaten, I can think of two or three but they were all when he was full back. He was/is a poor full back, an above average centre back and an exceptional wing back So the only reason you have offered is because he sticks hes chest out :D:D

Saying he is overrated because there are, in your opinion better hurlers on the Tipp team is one of your better brain farts, its the same as saying that Tommy Walsh was overrated because JJ Delaney was a better hurler!

StupidLikeAFox

One thing I will say about Cluxton is that he probably gets too much credit for the Dublin kickouts. These need to be practiced, coached and involve the movement of several players. Of course they need accurate kickouts but that is only one cog in the wheel and Cluxton probably gets a certain amount of undue praise for that

Powerhouse

mickeyk wrote: »

It may also not effect him because nobody but you has more than a passing interest.

Oh yeah, of course this is true. It's only me that's keeping the awards scheme going. Yeah, that's be right. That's why it won't affect Cluxton.

Fair play too to the hero who tanked your post....FFS.

P.S. If you want to personalise things why not just PM me. You can even cc your man so he can shout "h'wan ta ****" at you. Maybe we can even celebrate your 15th birthday while we're at it. :rolleyes:

The_Honeybadger

Powerhouse wrote: »

Oh yeah, of course this is true. It's only me that's keeping the awards scheme going. Yeah, that's be right. That's why it won't affect Cluxton.

Fair play too to the hero who tanked your post....FFS.

P.S. If you want to personalise things why not just PM me. You can even cc your man so he can shout "h'wan ta ****" at you. Maybe we can even celebrate your 15th birthday while we're at it. :rolleyes:

Apologies for any offence caused mate, but that is some overreaction.

I think we have different criteria for judging players and we won’t reach a consensus. We have derailed the thread long enough so I won’t be posting again. All the best.

Powerhouse

mickeyk wrote: »

Apologies for any offence caused mate, but that is some overreaction.

I think we have different criteria for judging players and we won’t reach a consensus. We have derailed the thread long enough so I won’t be posting again. All the best.

As long as we spoke about factors and criteria for overrated players we were perfectly on topic. The only derailing came when you started talking about me and some absolute eejit thought it was such a good idea that he thanked your post. It probably is time to stop posting on a topic when you start playing the man.

Whiteladder

danganabu wrote: »

lol no you didnt and you were asked for examples of all these times where he has been comprehensively beaten, I can think of two or three but they were all when he was full back. He was/is a poor full back, an above average centre back and an exceptional wing back So the only reason you have offered is because he sticks hes chest out :D:D

Saying he is overrated because there are, in your opinion better hurlers on the Tipp team is one of your better brain farts, its the same as saying that Tommy Walsh was overrated because JJ Delaney was a better hurler!

So he is poor in some positions and average in others but he is not overrated,
dig up man, dig up!

Anyways, where did I say he is overrated because there is better hurlers on the Tipp team? I didn't. Another poster mentioned he was Tipps strongest player so I said I felt there are better. That was all. The brainfart is on the posterwho hasn't read the previous posts and just dived in. I also outlined in an earlier post why I feel he is overrated and it wasn't necessarily because he sticks he chest out, although that seems to have upset you for some unknown reason. I could copy and paste it in here for you but you should probably take the earlier advice and go back and read those other posts.

Either way you have probably proved my argument as to why he is overrated by outlining some more of his limitations. Cheers!

Powerhouse

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

One thing I will say about Cluxton is that he probably gets too much credit for the Dublin kickouts. These need to be practiced, coached and involve the movement of several players. Of course they need accurate kickouts but that is only one cog in the wheel and Cluxton probably gets a certain amount of undue praise for that

This is interesting. There is no doubt that Dublin's kickouts involve a lot of moving parts and there probably is someone in the coaching staff whose brainchild the whole thing is and they'll never get the credit.

But I think every player is a product of the situation they find themselves in. There are plenty of guys in successful teams that taken out of that situation would be ordinary enough. You see it now with Kilkenny hurlers some of whom look ordinary enough in a not as strong team. The same applies to players who looked like great players in a team that was going well but you'd wonder about them outside that environment.

A few days ago here there was a farcical claim made here that TJ Reid would not have made a "peak Cody" team when he is clearly a far better and more complete forward than Eddie Brennan and Aidan Fogarty (to name just two regulars on peak Cody teams) ever were. Likewise there are players who looked bland enough in ordinary teams who would do a perfectly efficient job if in a much better team with loads of good players around them.

Does Cluxton get undue praise for kickouts? In fairness, probably. But players nearly always get undue praise and criticism. On the other hand to my mind Dublin generally make things look easier than they are as they are so well-coached, organised, and apparently unreliant on a superstar individual to do amazing things.

danganabu

Whiteladder wrote: »

So he is poor in some positions and average in others but he is not overrated,
dig up man, dig up!

Anyways, where did I say he is overrated because there is better hurlers on the Tipp team? I didn't. Another poster mentioned he was Tipps strongest player so I said I felt there are better. That was all. The brainfart is on the posterwho hasn't read the previous posts and just dived in. I also outlined in an earlier post why I feel he is overrated and it wasn't necessarily because he sticks he chest out, although that seems to have upset you for some unknown reason. I could copy and paste it in here for you but you should probably take the earlier advice and go back and read those other posts.

Either way you have probably proved my argument as to why he is overrated by outlining some more of his limitations. Cheers!

And we still wait for the examples.............

And what position did I say he was average in, if you cant read then maybe the internet is not for you kid!

mountgomery burns

Couldn't agree with any of the Tipp players mentioned. Corbett had wicked injury problems that stalled his early career, but when he got going from 2008-2011 he was the player I feared most whenever we played Tipp.

OP, watching somebody's Laochra Gael probably isn't the best time to judge whether they are over-rated or not. He got plenty of criticism in his career.

Paudie Maher is the best players Tipp have produced since Eoin Kelly I would say, phenomenal.

Surprised nobody has mentioned Joe Canning, he'd normally be popular. I think he's a brilliant hurler and has done some outrageous things but I never really bought it that Galway were holding him back until 2012. As I said, excellent hurler but I wouldn't have him in the debate in the best of all time and there are those that believe categorically that he holds that title.

Whiteladder

danganabu wrote: »

And we still wait for the examples.............

And what position did I say he was average in, if you cant read then maybe the internet is not for you kid!

That's irony. I'm not able to read yet you are still looking for examples i gave a few posts back. Like i said read back through the thread rather than jumping in and making an idiot of yourself- again!

LoughNeagh2017

Maybe many of Derry club players, all this talk about being top clubs in Ireland yet when faced with the top county teams they crumble like minnows, to be considered a top player you have to be challenging for county All Irelands

danganabu

Whiteladder wrote: »

Off the top of my head there was the Munster Championship vs Cork 2017. The All ireland Semi Final vs Galway 2015. The 2014 qualifier vs Galway. 2010 Munster Championship vs Cork.

Whiteladder wrote: »

That's irony. I'm not able to read yet you are still looking for examples i gave a few posts back. Like i said read back through the thread rather than jumping in and making an idiot of yourself- again!

My apologies, was on the phone and missed your list.

2017 - Harnedy was the least affective of a rampant Cork forward line, scored 2 points in what was a shoot out, infact Paidi scored one himself.

2015 - Yeah Jason Flynn caused him a lot of problems that day alright.

2014 and 2010 were when Paidi was asked to play FB because we had no one else to play there, very similar to the KK situation at the moment, and like them we turned to our best defender.

Not too shabby for a lad with over 40 senior intercounty games under his belt, I dont know maybe we have a differnet perception of what constitutes overrated.

Can you tell me who you regard as the best wingback in hurling over the last 5 years - Michael Duignans words not mine.

Powerhouse

LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »

Maybe many of Derry club players, all this talk about being top clubs in Ireland yet when faced with the top county teams they crumble like minnows, to be considered a top player you have to be challenging for county All Irelands

The bit in bold is probably true for many watchers of football unfortunately. But it is believable that a great player cannot ever come from outside the handful of counties that challenge for All Irelands? It is unlikely that Conor McManus or Michael Quinlavin will ever grace All-Ireland final day but it seems to me that both would be significant players for Dublin if they were in that county. But are they not top players?

grbear

Of the current crop of players I'd probably nominate Damien Comer. As a Galway person I don't like doing so but I think it's a decent shout.

He is plainly a very good player but when you hear him being discussed on something like the GAA Hour or read previews of big Galway games he seems to be rated closer to the likes of Conor McManus than is currently justified. I don't think you can be rated at that sort of level until you have a decent track record of stepping up and delivering in the big games. I don't think Comer has managed that yet. He does seem to have stepped things up a notch this year and if he maintains his current form then I'll have to change my vote to someone else. Hopefully I'll be ending the year with a nice big feed of crow.

Pighead

Jack McCarron from Monaghan. One of the brightest young stars in the country apparently but has flattered to deceive the majority of times I've watched him. Put a big score up against the Dubs in the league last year but went on to have a poor championship and a poor start to the league this year.

blue note

Powerhouse wrote: »

The bit in bold is probably true for many watchers of football unfortunately. But it is believable that a great player cannot ever come from outside the handful of counties that challenge for All Irelands? It is unlikely that Conor McManus or Michael Quinlavin will ever grace All-Ireland final day but it seems to me that both would be significant players for Dublin if they were in that county. But are they not top players?

That's completely true in hurling as well. I saw a couple of lads from the great Kilkenny team included in top 125 hurlers of all time whose inclusion was certainly questionable. They were very fine players and deserving of their place on the greatest team of all time. But not one of the very best players of all time.

I always felt that had they been born in a county like limerick for example, they'd have been regarded as really strong players and would probably have picked up a couple of all star nominations over their careers (in which case I'd have regarded them as underrated).

Put simply, in GAA how people rate you as an individual is strongly linked to what team you play on.

MfMan

grbear wrote: »

Of the current crop of players I'd probably nominate Damien Comer. As a Galway person I don't like doing so but I think it's a decent shout.

He is plainly a very good player but when you hear him being discussed on something like the GAA Hour or read previews of big Galway games he seems to be rated closer to the likes of Conor McManus than is currently justified. I don't think you can be rated at that sort of level until you have a decent track record of stepping up and delivering in the big games. I don't think Comer has managed that yet. He does seem to have stepped things up a notch this year and if he maintains his current form then I'll have to change my vote to someone else. Hopefully I'll be ending the year with a nice big feed of crow.

People discussing Comer don't seem to realise he's not a natural or largely prolific finisher. His strength is his strength, getting on the ball, making ground, drawing men and making room for others. Shane Walsh is infinitely more skillful but doesn't always do his job with the same effectiveness as Comer.

Joe Canning should not or must not ever be overrated. Being doing his stuff on adult teams since he was 17; still does things nobody playing can dream of doing. More consistent than many give him credit for.

BQQ

danganabu wrote: »

My apologies, was on the phone and missed your list.

2017 - Harnedy was the least affective of a rampant Cork forward line, scored 2 points in what was a shoot out, infact Paidi scored one himself.

2015 - Yeah Jason Flynn caused him a lot of problems that day alright.

2014 and 2010 were when Paidi was asked to play FB because we had no one else to play there, very similar to the KK situation at the moment, and like them we turned to our best defender.

Not too shabby for a lad with over 40 senior intercounty games under his belt, I dont know maybe we have a differnet perception of what constitutes overrated.

Can you tell me who you regard as the best wingback in hurling over the last 5 years - Michael Duignans words not mine.

Of all the names mentioned on this thread, I didn’t think it would be paudie Maher that would cause the inevitable s**tstorm

2012 semi-final is a glaring omission from this list
He was absolutely shameful that day (and was cleaned out playing wing back)

I know your question was not directed at me, but in my opinion, in the last 5 years i’d Have both Mannion and Buckley ahead of him

castletownman

Just because a player has multiple AI medals in his back pocket doesn't mean they should be automatically excluded from any debates such as this. It is a team game after all. The fact that a few Dublin players among other AI winners are mentioned is a product of the fact that they are currently the most successful team around and as such are more prominent in the public eye than others. It's not a sleight on the players or teams in question, nor should any suggestion be deemed sacrilege.

An equivalent discussion in the soccer forum (god forbid bringing the garrison game into these parts) would be dominated by players from United, Liverpool etc. You know the most popular/successful teams. I wouldn't say many people would be extolling the validity or otherwise of Ashley Barnes or Jonathan Hogg.

For a bit of balance, the two most successful teams of my lifetime apart from the current Dubs would be Kilkenny and the noughties Kerry. Of those sides, I would regard Michael Kavanagh as over-rated from the Cats, as I would Bryan Sheehan and Seamus Scanlon for the Kingdom (Tadhg Kennelly for his brief foray in the round ball too). That doesn't take away from the fact they all played a key part in years of success.

And my previous reference of TJ Reid was misconstrued somewhat as well. I was meant to compare him to Shefflin from purely a play-maker/score-taker point of view. And if Henry has been leveled with criticism about his overall greatness (and Canning more recently too) than the same can certainly be directed at Reid too. He has yet to produce as many clutch moments as Eoin Larkin in his career either, and while I will accept he would have started ahead of Aidan Fogarty, it's not exactly like-for-like as Reid has never played corner forward for a sustained period at that level. If anything, Eddie Brennan was underrated as he was as consistent goalscorer as Corbett and done it on as many big stages as possible.

Powerhouse

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Surprised nobody has mentioned Joe Canning, he'd normally be popular. I think he's a brilliant hurler and has done some outrageous things but I never really bought it that Galway were holding him back until 2012. As I said, excellent hurler but I wouldn't have him in the debate in the best of all time and there are those that believe categorically that he holds that title.

I remember him scoring 2-12 from 2-15 against Cork in 2008 when still very young and I still find it hard to imagine any other player doing it.

Though funnily enough he got HOTY last year when I didn't think he was even Galway's best player. It was almost as if it was the "right thing to do" - like some ould lad getting an Oscar.

Powerhouse

castletownman wrote: »

An equivalent discussion in the soccer forum (god forbid bringing the garrison game into these parts) would be dominated by players from United, Liverpool etc. You know the most popular/successful teams. I wouldn't say many people would be extolling the validity or otherwise of Ashley Barnes or Jonathan Hogg.

If anything, Eddie Brennan was underrated as he was as consistent goalscorer as Corbett and done it on as many big stages as possible.

Eddie Brennan started 9 All-Ireland hurling finals and scored goals only in the two that Kilkenny were up against really inferior opposition. On big stages in very tight competitive matches he often fired blanks. No score at all and substituted in 2003. No score at all 2004. No goal in 2006. No goal in 2009. No score at all and substituted in 2010. Definitely the kind of player I believe would have been ordinary enough in another county where he might be relied upon to pull more than his own weight fairly often.

As for soccer.............I've no doubt that hurling crops up all the time on the soccer forum so that wouldn't be a problem at all. However, United (Manchester I presume?) and Liverpool the most successful teams? Manchester haven't finished in the top three, never mind winning anything, in the past five years. Liverpool have one top three finish in the past eight years and haven't won the thing since God knows when. They shouldn't dominate any such discussion if it is confined to the best teams though knowing the Irish they probably would.

MayoAreMagic

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

One thing I will say about Cluxton is that he probably gets too much credit for the Dublin kickouts. These need to be practiced, coached and involve the movement of several players. Of course they need accurate kickouts but that is only one cog in the wheel and Cluxton probably gets a certain amount of undue praise for that

Agreed.
Those kickouts can look very stupid, if you don't have the likes of James McCarthy out there to hare onto the ball. The thing is, you can hit the spot you were aiming for, but your team mate might just be on his heels or outpaced by an opponent. But the keeper still gets the blame if the kickout is lost.

The thing with cluxton people admire so much is his dead ball ability. Like his traditional goalkeeping skills are what I would consider to be middle of the road tbh. I don't doubt there are better out and out goalkeepers in Dublin. What sets him apart is the dead balls.
It is funny, in times gone by, if a team played a guy like that at corner forward, he would be considered to be only there for the frees.
To my mind, with respect to the above, when people are saying he is the best player in the game, that to me is over rating him. Like, would dean rock be a great goalkeeper if they stuck him in there for the accurate kicking and he turned out to be half-decent and making a few saves?


On the topic of dean rock, I noticed someone stated that what set him apart from oconnor was that COC missed frees in the finals. Funny enough, Rock actually missed frees in both of those finals... His team just won so nobody took much notice.
In truth, both free takers struggled to kick into the hill end on the day this year because there was a tricky wind coming in from that end. Rock missed 3 into that end in the first half...

MayoAreMagic

blanch152 wrote: »

Over-rated players?

Well, 7 Mayo players won an All-Star last year despite not winning a single title and barely escaping relegation from Division 1. By any objective grounds, some of them must be over-rated.

The all stars are awarded on performances for that year. They aren't the defining award for someone being rated. For example, MacCauley won POTY, yet is not rated as a great footballer.

blanch152 wrote: »

Diarmuid Connolly? The man has won 2 All-Stars. Is that over-rated? I don't think so for a man of his talents. Has he delivered as much as his talent deserves? No, he has been disappointing on occasions but still worthy of the two All-Stars.

Again, all stars reflect the players performances for that year. The fact that Connolly has only deserved two awards is indicative of the issue people have with him - he has the skills yet you don't see him doing enough with the football.

blanch152 wrote: »

Cillian O'Connor? Well, he won two Young Player of the Year awards yet he has managed to miss important frees in important matches over the last few years. Over-rated? Based on those objective facts, definitely.

Rock missed important frees too. 3 in the first half this year (into the same goals COC missed his 1), and had a complete nightmare in the drawn game the year before. His team won so people don't take as much notice as say the one he missed against Kerry in the league final, but he still missed them and they were important at the time. In reality, some times free takers miss frees. Picking on one and ignoring others is unfair.

blanch152 wrote: »

David Clarke? Again, won the last two goal-keeping All-Stars, yet arguably has been the man responsible for Mayo losing the last two All-Irelands. His kicking meltdown in the drawn game in 2016 saw him replaced with a lesser goalkeeper but better kicker who threw away that All-Ireland. In 2017, with two men free on the Hogan Stand Side, he kicked the last kick-out over the Cusack Stand sideline. Probably the most over-rated player in the country.

Cringe

blanch152 wrote: »

Stephen Cluxton? This suggestion makes me laugh. Five All-Ireland medals, four of them captaining his team, three rule changes because of his play, hard to over-rate him, giving the scale of those achievements.

Funny you dismiss all star awards, yet instantly list out all Ireland medals. You cant have it both ways I'm afraid. At least all stars and potys are an individual award. There are plenty average players out there who all Ireland medals with their team so that doesn't prove anything definitively. Also, rule changes are generally a sign that you are doing something goes against the ethos of the game to rather than a sign of great skill (like kicking backwards on kickouts). I don't see how that is to be praised. It is just spoiling tactics.

blanch152 wrote: »

Other contenders? Colm Boyle and Keith Higgins have won four All-Stars and no All-Irelands. Are they the players with the most All-Stars for zero Celtic Crosses? That would make them over-rated by any normal standard.

Only to a person who fails to realise that winning all Irelands is not a definitive factor for gauging individual excellence. You appear to fall into this category.

blanch152 wrote: »

Kevin McManamon? Now, this is a Dublin player who could be both over-rated and under-appreciated. He has never been good enough apart from one season to hold down a starting place for Dublin in the Championship, yet if you want a player to come off the bench and run at tiring defences, there is nobody better out there.

So basically, effective at one particular job at a particular time in a game. Funny, you slate cillian oconnor for offering the same via frees...

robbiezero

Big Ears wrote: »

Well he was first sub on in the 2008 & 2009 finals, and he started (and was captain) in 2010, all the while he was still a pup....so I find that statement odd, considering the majority will agree he's improved considerably since.

I'm a Tipp man, so I wouldn't be going out of my way to praise Kilkenny players, but TJ is probably the only player who Kilkenny have left that genuinely frightens me with his capabilities. Richie Hogan is crocked, and the rest just aren't that good.
But get TJ enough ball, and he'll make **** of you. 13 points, 6 from play the last day against Tipp says it all, some might say it's only the league, give him the chances in the Championship and he'll take them.

Austin Gleeson for me is a man who gets overrated a bit. He's a phenomenal hurler, an amazing athlete (arguably the best athlete in hurling), but there are people out there who believe he's the best hurler in the country, and imo he's not even the best on that Waterford team

Tipp man here as well. Maybe all the damage he has done to us in recent years is biasing it a bit, but I would rate TJ Reid very high indeed and would have thought he would walk onto any Kilkenny team of any era.
Very very skillful player combined with incredible ball-winning ability and work-rate.

danganabu

BQQ wrote: »

Of all the names mentioned on this thread, I didn’t think it would be paudie Maher that would cause the inevitable s**tstorm

2012 semi-final is a glaring omission from this list
He was absolutely shameful that day (and was cleaned out playing wing back)

I know your question was not directed at me, but in my opinion, in the last 5 years i’d Have both Mannion and Buckley ahead of him

And sure we know that the KK boys love Paudi and seriously Mannion better than Maher that takes the biscuit altogether, one good season and didnt even make his debut until 2015.

MfMan

danganabu wrote: »

And sure we know that the KK boys love Paudi and seriously Mannion better than Maher that takes the biscuit altogether, one good season and didnt even make his debut until 2015.

An auspicious debut season and 2 very good seasons since when placed in his natural half-back position.

Powerhouse

BQQ wrote: »

Of all the names mentioned on this thread, I didn’t think it would be paudie Maher that would cause the inevitable s**tstorm

2012 semi-final is a glaring omission from this list
He was absolutely shameful that day (and was cleaned out playing wing back)

I know your question was not directed at me, but in my opinion, in the last 5 years i’d Have both Mannion and Buckley ahead of him

That's six years ago and the memory is hazy but happily there's a contemporaneous account available (Diarmuid O'Flynn, Irish Examiner) who reported on the match and that every Kilkenny player won his individual battle "bar Colin Fennelly on Padraic Maher, the one man who stood strong for Tipperary on the battlefield".

Not such a glaring omission from the list maybe. It looks as if you are gilding the lilly a little bit.