Disciplinary meeting queries

Benildus

When is the 'final opportunity' meeting to take place?

STB.

Frowzy wrote: »

(5) do not record the meeting without their knowledge, it’s illegal.

It may be prohibited by the company but it most certainly is not illegal.

Being prohibited by the company means nothing. In the general scheme of things they should be aware that people will try, especially at disciplinary meetings.

All the previous references to the legaility are regarding phone calls and particularly those intercepting phone calls under P&T legislation and are irrelevant.

Bottom line covert recordings are and have been admissible in at employment tribunals. It scares the bejesus out of companies and most cases are settled before it gets that far, especially when they havent been following procedures.

@OP you need to read the list of complaints they have given you and have an answer.

You also need to list the reasons yourself and your manager do not get on etc. If you are there 3 years, that is to your benefit. Is this a recent occurrence ? And for God sake state why you were not available to attend originally in writing (refute their claim). i.e. very short notice and secondly on your day off. They may think you are avoiding them. Refute this. Then give them a list of days that you are available if they suit. Sounds like they are looking for reasons at this stage.

Be prepared.

Avatar MIA

muckbrien wrote: »

The company replied stating they were offering me a final opportunity to attend a disciplinary meeting during worktime.

Also stated my refusal to attend the first 2 meetings is now one of the issues for the disciplinary process itself.

Although, they don't seem to need to go through the HR process (badly executed though it may be), so why are they? Maybe the want to keep you on?

STB.

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Although, they don't seem to need to go through the HR process (badly executed though it may be), so why are they? Maybe the want to keep you on?

You might want to re-read the thread

Avatar MIA

STB. wrote: »

You might want to re-read the thread

Is the employee not on a contract ending soon, and so they don't need to process him out.

muckbrien

Do deadlines to confirm attendance at disciplinary hearings have any legal standing or can they be ignored.Reason i ask is that the deadline they have now given me doesn't suit me.I need a couple of extra days to get my exit strategy together.

I have decided today that I cannot work a day longer at this company for the sake of my mental health so it's either resign or be fired immediately for me now.

Can you get social welfare if u resign or would I need to go to the doctor and explain the situation re work stress?

Avatar MIA

muckbrien wrote: »

I need a couple of extra days to get my exit strategy together.

You're supposed to be given reasonable time for a disciplinary meeting.

But, as a matter of interest, why DO you need a couple of days, what strategy do you think you'll come up with. Is it just a case of needing a number of days to process it mentally?

If you resign you could be waiting up to 9 weeks for social welfare. I've heard of SW officer overlooking the time if the employer was known to be a bad employer. Not sure about the doctor approach.

muckbrien

Avatar MIA wrote: »

You're supposed to be given reasonable time for a disciplinary meeting.

But, as a matter of interest, why DO you need a couple of days, what strategy do you think you'll come up with. Is it just a case of needing a number of days to process it mentally?

Hi I've just decided I'm finished with the company right now like immediately. I just can't face into another week mentally at all.

Don't know whether to quit before or take my chances on being sacked after the meeting or which is in my best interest.

That's why I wanted to buy time.I'm done right now either way.

Avatar MIA

muckbrien wrote: »

Hi I've just decided I'm finished with the company right now like immediately. I just can't face into another week mentally at all.

Don't know whether to quit before or take my chances on being sacked after the meeting or which is in my best interest.

That's why I wanted to buy time.I'm done right now either way.

If you're in that frame of mind, it shouldn't be too hard to be sacked. Say as much in the meeting. Say, 'it's clear there is a difference of opinion about my work here, and I'm happy to be let go' - if they want you gone they'll take you up on your offer, but they would be the one's to let you go. You're happy to be let go, you're not resigning.

STB.

muckbrien wrote: »

Do deadlines to confirm attendance at disciplinary hearings have any legal standing or can they be ignored.Reason i ask is that the deadline they have now given me doesn't suit me.I need a couple of extra days to get my exit strategy together.

1. I have decided today that I cannot work a day longer at this company for the sake of my mental health so it's either resign or be fired immediately for me now.

2. Can you get social welfare if u resign or would I need to go to the doctor and explain the situation re work stress?

1. You have come to the conclusion that you will have to resign or that they will fire you ? It would have to be something quite serious for the company to resort to this. You need to read your companies code of practice and grievance procedure.

2. No. I am not going to advise you on the stress part. Some might say its a way of buying yourself time, presuming you are stressed.

You sound like you need legal advice.

Haithabu

STB. wrote: »

Being prohibited by the company means nothing.

It means quite a lot actually. If the company policy does not allow a recording then recoding a meeting secretly is a clear violation of the rule. Likely resulting in dismissal if they find out. And that will stand in court as well if it comes to court.

I don't know what this disciplinary meeting is about but if it's about conduct and involving customers, for example an occasion where the OP's conduct with a customer did not meet the expected standard, then customer data will be discussed. And even if it's just the customer's name it's personal information. Taking that outside the company secretly on a memory stick or any other device is a clear data protection breach.

There is no gain in recording anyway. In a disciplinary meeting an HR representative will take notes and it's perfectly fine to ask for a copy after the meeting. Best would be to ask at the beginning of the meeting when they tell you that they will take notes. But likely you would be issued a copy later anyway, even if you do not ask. HR is not the OP's supervisor and will remain neutral. If OP has reason to believe they plan to falsify notes to reflect something that was not said then he should look for another employer anyway.

muckbrien

Avatar MIA wrote: »

If you're in that frame of mind, it shouldn't be too hard to be sacked. Say as much in the meeting. Say, 'it's clear there is a difference of opinion about my work here, and I'm happy to be let go' - if they want you gone they'll take you up on your offer, but they would be the one's to let you go. You're happy to be let go, you're not resigning.

Looking likely that's what I'll do

Self employment is likely my next move down the road anyhow ,so I'm not particularly concerned about job prospects but I'd be looking for social welfare short term

STB.

Haithabu wrote: »

It means quite a lot actually. If the company policy does not allow a recording then recoding a meeting secretly is a clear violation of the rule. Likely resulting in dismissal if they find out. And that will stand in court as well if it comes to court..

It means nothing. You'd do well to find one in a COP.

Recording a disciplinary meeting would not be used as a disciplinary action, especially dismissal.

If Companies are correctly following procedures they have nothing to worry about.

https://www.mcdowellpurcell.ie/news/covert-recording-in-the-workplace/

nikkibikki

muckbrien wrote:

Can you get social welfare if u resign or would I need to go to the doctor and explain the situation re work stress?

They say you won't get the first 9 weeks of Jobseekers if you resign but you can appeal this. If successful tho, you won't get it for ages. I'd say easily after the 9 weeks.

jcd5971

muckbrien wrote: »

Looking likely that's what I'll do

Self employment is likely my next move down the road anyhow ,so I'm not particularly concerned about job prospects but I'd be looking for social welfare short term

I'm not Doubting you, but if everything you've said here is true, then your company is not following procedures properly at all.

they have to schedule your disciplinary action for a work time, and they have to give you ample time to prepare, a day is not enough.

also while many firms do not acknowledge a union, they do have to offer you the option of a witness, usually a fellow co-worker etc. 100% take advantage of this as you can be sure they will have a witness there to document their version of events.

i would tell them you are recording for your own records, you could try to stealth record, but i think that's a double edged sword.

keep notes yourself who says what etc. also get it very clear what your being disciplined for, really you should have been made aware already.

just going off personal experience in the past i think if you were to push unfair dismissal down the road, they would get hammered for not following procedures.

what you need to do is get a copy of your companies employee handbook and read up the disciplinary procedures, any breaches in this and you can challenge back.

do not go into the meeting in a standoffish manner keep civil and calm, and as i said document document document everything.


lastly dont quit thats 9 weeks with no social welfare net to cushion the blow.
if they are going to fire you they will probably be going gross misconduct and will suspend you provisionally with pay pending an outcome, use this time to job hunt/plan your next steps. also seek clarification on this if they go that route as there is a high burden of proof in a employment tribunal to deter employers from using this a s a blunt tool to just get rid of someone.


again op good luck and try not to get too mentally down over this, i know easier said than done.

Ronin247

Haithabu wrote: »

.............

There is no gain in recording anyway. In a disciplinary meeting an HR representative will take notes and it's perfectly fine to ask for a copy after the meeting. Best would be to ask at the beginning of the meeting when they tell you that they will take notes. But likely you would be issued a copy later anyway, even if you do not ask. HR is not the OP's supervisor and will remain neutral. If OP has reason to believe they plan to falsify notes to reflect something that was not said then he should look for another employer anyway.

Have to disagree with you on this issue. I attended a meeting with a colleague and HR. The amount of relevant issues that the HR rep "accidentally" omitted from the minutes to the companies benefit was outrageous. Colleague had to get a solicitor to send a letter to stop their bullshine.
When you walk into the meeting place your phone on the middle of the table and tell them you are recording the meeting due to their not giving you enough time to prepare and not supplying a proper list of the " charges " against you which they are "legally" obliged to.
If you have decided to go then leave them with no option but to let you go.

BtchySub

muckbrien wrote: »

Hi I've just decided I'm finished with the company right now like immediately. I just can't face into another week mentally at all.

Don't know whether to quit before or take my chances on being sacked after the meeting or which is in my best interest.

That's why I wanted to buy time.I'm done right now either way.

Don't quit, it's 9 week wait for social welfare. If you get fired, no wait.
See what happens in the meeting first but if your contract is soon expired then just wait.

muckbrien

BtchySub wrote: »

Don't quit, it's 9 week wait for social welfare. If you get fired, no wait.
See what happens in the meeting first but if your contract is soon expired then just wait.

Yes I'm not going to resign but I can't see out the contract now

So hopefully get fired

STB.

muckbrien wrote: »

Yes I'm not going to resign but I can't see out the contract now

So hopefully get fired

Excuse the pun but you seem resigned to the fact that you will be fired.

You say that you are at the end of your third (12 month) contract ?

You know that Fixed term contracts cannot be extended beyond 4 years or that position becomes permanent.

You will know the answer to this ? Have you done something that warrants firing ? And are they following their own procedures correctly ?

You should read No 15 carefully in this.

https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Publications_Forms/Guide_-_Protection_of_Employees_Fixed-term_Work_Act.pdf

muckbrien

STB. wrote: »

Excuse the pun but you seem resigned to the fact that you will be fired.

You say that you are at the end of your third (12 month) contract ?

You know that Fixed term contracts cannot be extended beyond 4 years or that position becomes permanent.

You will know the answer to this ? Have you done something that warrants firing ? And are they following their own procedures correctly ?

You should read No 15 carefully in this.

https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Publications_Forms/Guide_-_Protection_of_Employees_Fixed-term_Work_Act.pdf

Don't think so but it will be an ordeal mentally to see out the contract.

I'm probably hoping at this stage I can encourage them to fire me at the meeting

jimmycrackcorm

muckbrien wrote: »

Do deadlines to confirm attendance at disciplinary hearings have any legal standing or can they be ignored.Reason i ask is that the deadline they have now given me doesn't suit me.I need a couple of extra days to get my exit strategy together.

I have decided today that I cannot work a day longer at this company for the sake of my mental health so it's either resign or be fired immediately for me now.

Can you get social welfare if u resign or would I need to go to the doctor and explain the situation re work stress?

Why did you refuse the first meeting, when it was during your work time? The company can't take issue with you having a meeting on your time off when you aren't paid, but now you are going to have to bite the bullet.


You can be without social welfare for up to nine weeks but if you have a valid reason (not including gross misconduct) then the period will most likely be lessened and in many cases won't apply.

muckbrien

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why did you refuse the first meeting, when it was during your work time? The company can't take issue with you having a meeting on your time off when you aren't paid, but now you are going to have to bite the bullet.

.

Hi
They gave me less than 24 hrs notice and 2 lines about the nature of the meeting

I rejected this as unsatisfactory

Seth Brundle

muckbrien wrote: »

Hi
They gave me less than 24 hrs notice and 2 lines about the nature of the meeting

I rejected this as unsatisfactory

Avoid using terms as "I rejected..." in favour of something more like "I felt this would not give me enough time to prepare and felt..."
Stand up for yourself a little bit FFS!

muckbrien

kbannon wrote: »

Avoid using terms as "I rejected..." in favour of something more like "I felt this would not give me enough time to prepare and felt..."
Stand up for yourself a little bit FFS!

I wouldn't be using that terminology at the meeting

muckbrien

Do I have a right to see the evidence being presented?

Or just a description of the issues?

Creol1

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why did you refuse the first meeting, when it was during your work time? The company can't take issue with you having a meeting on your time off when you aren't paid, but now you are going to have to bite the bullet.


You can be without social welfare for up to nine weeks but if you have a valid reason (not including gross misconduct) then the period will most likely be lessened and in many cases won't apply.

Out of interest, does anyone know how/if Social Welfare actually verify the circumstances in which your employment ended? I've never signed on myself but I thought a P45 (plus the relevant forms and proof of ID, etc.) was all they needed.

shar01

Creol1 wrote: »

Out of interest, does anyone know how/if Social Welfare actually verify the circumstances in which your employment ended? I've never signed on myself but I thought a P45 (plus the relevant forms and proof of ID, etc.) was all they needed.

From my Payroll time, I vaguely remember SW writing to former employer asking why employment terminated and if employee was due holiday pay.

secondrowgal

Creol1 wrote: »

Out of interest, does anyone know how/if Social Welfare actually verify the circumstances in which your employment ended? I've never signed on myself but I thought a P45 (plus the relevant forms and proof of ID, etc.) was all they needed.

Yes. We were sent a form from SW for an employee who left and we had to give their reason for leaving. Was quite impressed by their efficiency at the time, especially as the employee just left us high and dry.

Sorry for the off-topic. Best of luck with it OP.

_Brian

muckbrien wrote: »

Do I have a right to see the evidence being presented?

Or just a description of the issues?

I can’t imagine an instance where you wouldn’t be entitled to see the “evidence” they are using to base this case on. Maybe they are protecting another employee, but if your facing termination you would need to know the exact details the case is being based on to make a proper defense which you are entitled to.

amtc

It is absolutely not the case you are excluded from social welfare for 9 weeks.every case on its own merit. Plus way around is to go in illness benefit and apply for jb fron there