Disciplinary meeting queries

zetor

U nfortunately there are a lot of bullys out there who are very poor at managing and when things go belly up they blame the worker under them, it makes me mad when i hear some of the stories about jumped up managers and the way they treat people, i was a shopsteward myself for a number of years saw managers railroad people and were on high horses but as a group we had enough and went on strike , 6 weeks before there was meaningful talks and these managers were humble boys after and were till the recession and redundancies came up, i took it myself and changed my work pattern.But i do know that the employer in question had regained the balance of power and some of what was gained was lost as positions were weaker .But i know it was a much better job where managers had to respect the employees and discuss any changes of workpractice and have regard for peoples needs and form agreement which would suit both parties.

muckbrien

davo10 wrote: »

Op, are you on a fixed term contract? This is very important.

Yes

davo10

zetor wrote: »

U nfortunately there are a lot of bullys out there who are very poor at managing and when things go belly up they blame the worker under them, it makes me mad when i hear some of the stories about jumped up managers and the way they treat people, i was a shopsteward myself for a number of years saw managers railroad people and were on high horses but as a group we had enough and went on strike , 6 weeks before there was meaningful talks and these managers were humble boys after and were till the recession and redundancies came up, i took it myself and changed my work pattern.But i do know that the employer in question had regained the balance of power and some of what was gained was lost as positions were weaker .But i know it was a much better job where managers had to respect the employees and discuss any changes of workpractice and have regard for peoples needs and form agreement which would suit both parties.

We know nothing about the reason for the disciplinary apart from what the op posted about not getting on with his manager, we don't know what he did or whether it is warranted so we shouldn't speculate on whether he is being railroaded. What we do know is that he has already received a verbal warning and that his employer now believes there is a reason for taking further action. Perhaps the op might give a little more info.

I've posted twice that the nature of the employment contract is important, for very good reason. The op posted earlier that he signed a 12 month contract which leads me to think he is in fixed term employment. If he is, the most important piece of advice which can be given is: start job hunting.

If the fixed term contract has a clause saying the UDA does not apply at the end of the contract, then baring in mind he has a verbal warning and a disciplinary meeting, he is going to be let go at the end of the current contract. As he is employed less than 4 years on FTC's he is not employed on a contract of indefinite duration (permanent). Therefore any redress from WRC would be limited to the remaining term of the contract. Employing a solicitor at this stage would be costly and unless the redress is significantly more than the cost of a solicitor, it's a waste of money.

The op should certainly bring a colleague to the meeting and he will be given a right to appeal any decision. What he will have to weigh up is whether it is worth the hassle.

Of course, if the op is now a permanent employee, then redress up to the equivalent of 2 years wages can be awarded for unfair dismissal.

If memory serves be correctly, if an employee postpones a disciplinary meeting, they must reschedule it within 5 days of the original meeting so that may well be why the employer is not willing to have it any later than Monday. I'm not certain of this but I vaguely remember hearing it at a HR seminar for employers.

davo10

muckbrien wrote: »

Yes

When does the contract end?

muckbrien

davo10 wrote: »

When does the contract end?

There's not long left but I don't want to get sacked either

davo10

muckbrien wrote: »

There's not long left but I don't want to get sacked either

Unfortunately you are likely to be let go at the end of your contract. At this stage, the best thing for you to do is sit down and write out the issues you had with your manager, the part your manger played in this issue arising and how you have tried to do your job to the best of your ability despite your manager's behaviour. Right now this is about your reference, nothing more. Redress if you brought a case to the WRC would be minimal and may infact be counterproductive if you work in a small industry.

Put your case across and most of all, stay calm, blowing your top or making unfounded allegations will just confirm to them that the manager was right. Remember, your manager may be to blame so give them precise examples of his behaviour.

Mr. Incognito

Hello there.

Im a litigation solicitor. Obviously i cant give you legal advice here but more than happy to take a call. Pm me if you want.

Suffice to say what they are attempting to do is not in line with employment law. The ramifications for them could be quite expensive when all said and done. Very few HR managers in smaller organisations get disciplinary procedures correct.

Fyi its not unlawful to record the meeting. You are entitled to be told possible sanctions in advance and to have a representative present and if this is your fourth fixed term contract you are an employee.

davo10

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Hello there.

Im a litigation solicitor. Obviously i cant give you legal advice here but more than happy to take a call. Pm me if you want.

Suffice to say what they are attempting to do is not in line with employment law. The ramifications for them could be quite expensive when all said and done. Very few HR managers in smaller organisations get disciplinary procedures correct.

Fyi its not unlawful to record the meeting. You are entitled to be told possible sanctions in advance and to have a representative present and if this is your fourth fixed term contract you are an employee.

As a solicitor you will know sub contractors and FT contractors are excluded under the Unfair Dismissals Act and redress is limited to the term of the contract. If it's nearly at an end, then the op is likely to get very little from litigation. WRC rulings are limited to loss of earnings up to 104 weeks or in the case of a term contract, wages up to the end of the term.

Incidentally, you can have as many term contracts as you like, it's only when the cumulative period of the contracts exceeds 4 years, not up to 4 years, that you become a full time employee. Op has said he is working there 3 years.

muckbrien

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Hello there.

Im a litigation solicitor. Obviously i cant give you legal advice here but more than happy to take a call. Pm me if you want.

Suffice to say what they are attempting to do is not in line with employment law. The ramifications for them could be quite expensive when all said and done. Very few HR managers in smaller organisations get disciplinary procedures correct.

Fyi its not unlawful to record the meeting. You are entitled to be told possible sanctions in advance and to have a representative present and if this is your fourth fixed term contract you are an employee.

It's my third

Frowzy

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Fyi its not unlawful to record the meeting. You are entitled to be told possible sanctions in advance and to have a representative present and if this is your fourth fixed term contract you are an employee.

I said in my post that it’s not legal if you don’t tell them that you’re recording not that it was unlawful.

If it’s his fourth fixed term contract it means that they can’t treat him any less favourably than full time staff, it also means that he can’t be let go to be replaced with someone else, not quite the same thing as a permanent position. He can still be disciplined and sacked on foot of the disclipinary hearing.

davo10

Frowzy wrote: »

I said in my post that it’s not legal if you don’t tell them that you’re recording not that it was unlawful.

If it’s his fourth fixed term contract it means that they can’t treat him any less favourably than full time staff, it also means that he can’t be let go to be replaced with someone else, not quite the same thing as a permanent position. He can still be disciplined and sacked on foot of the disclipinary hearing.

This is incorrect, at the end of the fourth one year contract, the op would be employed for 4 years, it is after the end of that contract i.e. 4 years duration, that the employer would have to make the op permanent, not at the beginning of the fourth year.

Op just confirmed it was the 3rd, so no argument there.


FTC are explained pretty well here:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/contracts_of_employment/fixed_term_or_specified_purpose_contracts.html

Frowzy

davo10 wrote: »

This is incorrect, at the end of the fourth one year contract, the op would be employed for 4 years, it is after the end of that contract i.e. 4 years duration, that the employer would have to make the op permanent, not at the beginning of the fourth year.

Op just confirmed it was the 3rd, so no argument there.


FTC are explained pretty well here:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/contracts_of_employment/fixed_term_or_specified_purpose_contracts.html

Fair enough, if you say so. But am I missing something on that link? I don’t see where it says that he has to be made permanent?

It says that the contract can’t be fixed term, ie have no end date. How many people do you know on a fixed term zero hours contract? That’s a point not worth debating, all the employer will do is argue that the position was only ever for a particular project which has now come to an end and they don’t need him anymore. They will then hire someone under a different job title.

In this case the op needs to pick their battles wisely, this is a grey area in employment law and one that not worth fighting.

Frowzy

davo10 wrote: »

It's in the section "Renewal of fixed term contracts", second point.

This is what I’m seeing;

“If an employee whose employment started before 14 July 2003 has completed 3 years’ continuous service as a fixed-term employee, the employer may renew their fixed-term contract only once for a period of no more than 1 year.
If an employee whose employment started after 14 July 2003 has been employed on 2 or more continuous fixed-term contracts, the total duration of those contracts may not exceed 4 years.
After this, if the employer wishes to renew the employee’s contract, it must be an open-ended contract unless there are objective grounds justifying the renewal of the contract for a fixed term only.“

This doesn’t mean that the employer has to make them permanent, they can give them a contract with no end date.

muckbrien

Do I have rights and can't be just let go?

Employed for almost 3 years?

Munstermissy

Frowzy wrote: »

I said in my post that it’s not legal if you don’t tell them that you’re recording not that it was unlawful.

What is the difference here please? I was recorded without prior knowledge and agreement

davo10

muckbrien wrote: »

Do I have rights and can't be just let go?

Employed for almost 3 years?

You can be let go, but every dismissal is unfair unless proved otherwise.

The problem you have, is that you are a fixed term employee approaching the end of your contract. Even if they dismissed you and you brought a claim against them for unfair dismissal, the most they would have to pay you in redress is the amount of wages you lost between the date you were dismissed and the end of your contract, in other words, very little. So yes, and they can sack you, you can take a claim against them, but it may not be worth it.

davo10

Munstermissy wrote: »

What is the difference here please? I was recorded without prior knowledge and agreement

In Ireland, only one person needs to give consent to record a conversation, the most recent high profile example of this was Garda Maurice McCabe recording telephone conversations without the knowledge of the other party involved.

Creol1

I would recommend to the OP that, not being able to afford a solicitor, he book in to a Free Legal Advice clinic where he can talk to a lawyer for free (although this is limited to advice, not representation).

muckbrien

davo10 wrote: »

You can be let go, but every dismissal is unfair unless proved otherwise.

The problem you have, is that you are a fixed term employee approaching the end of your contract. Even if they dismissed you and you brought a claim against them for unfair dismissal, the most they would have to pay you in redress is the amount of wages you lost between the date you were dismissed and the end of your contract, in other words, very little. So yes, and they can sack you, you can take a claim against them, but it may not be worth it.

So they can pretty much do what they like and it won't cost them?

Haithabu

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Solicitor straight away if you're looking to stay.

I personally don't think that it is a good idea to get an external solicitor involved. That only costs money and escalates the situation unnecessarily. If anything brought against you is justified then a solicitor won't be able to help you. If it is not justified you can still contest it first internally and if it leads to dismissal you can still get a solicitor to claim compensation for unfair dismissal. But hiring a solicitor in order to stay is unlikely a good investment, as soon a solicitor is involved the relationship between your employer and yourself is beyond repair anyway.

Typically disciplinary meetings are to address a breach of the employers policies and procedures. It does not automatically mean you will be fired. so if you are looking to stay my suggestion would be to cooperate, accept responsibility for what was done wrong and reject responsibility if it was not your fault.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Record it if you can, ideally without them knowing.

I personally would think that this is also a bad idea. If they don't know about it you miht not be allowed to use it later. Either way, that would probably end your employement as the employer can argue that trust etween you and them is now gone. Better take a witness with you or simply ask for a copy of the notes that are taken by the HR representative during the meeting.

davo10

muckbrien wrote: »

So they can pretty much do what they like and it won't cost them?

At most, if you won a case for unfair dismissal, they would only have to pay you what you would have been paid for the period between the date of your dismissal and the end of your current contract.

Frowzy

davo10 wrote: »

Contract with no end date = contract of indefinite duration = permanent employee. Sorry. You can delete your post, I'll remove this reply if you want.

No need to delete, it’s a valid point!

Back to my first response though a contract of indefinite duration doesn’t necessarily mean that you have work, there are thousand of people on zero hours CID. They can still say it was for a specific project and let you go. It’s not the same as a permanent job. I worked as a union rep and have seen it happen.

Frowzy

muckbrien wrote: »

Do I have rights and can't be just let go?

Employed for almost 3 years?

It depends what the hearing is about. I don’t know why they have called you for a hearing, and I don’t want to know.... you will have a fair idea yourself if it is gross misconduct.

Frowzy

davo10 wrote: »

In Ireland, only one person needs to give consent to record a conversation, the most recent high profile example of this was Garda Maurice McCabe recording telephone conversations without the knowledge of the other party involved.

Really??? Even when you call Laya Health care with an enquiry you’re informed that the call will be recorded.

With regard to a specific legal case (Maurice McCabe) as you’ve quoted I’d imagine an undercover operation is a different thing entirely, a judge would have signed a warrant for this to be done, No?

I’m not trying to be contrary but when I attended meetings as a rep we were obliged to tell management if we intended to record a meeting. 98% of the time they would object of course!!!

Samuel T. Cogley

One party recordings may or may not be admissible. They have been admitted as an aide-mémoire where something egregious has been said by management and then denied. They are particularly useful at the negotiation stage though.

If you've not contacted a solicitor a surreptitious recording is even more important.

davo10

Frowzy wrote: »

No need to delete, it’s a valid point!

Back to my first response though a contract of indefinite duration doesn’t necessarily mean that you have work, there are thousand of people on zero hours CID. They can still say it was for a specific project and let you go. It’s not the same as a permanent job. I worked as a union rep and have seen it happen.

If you have a contract of indefinite duration, you are an employee rather than a fixed term contractor, even if your job only involves you working one hour a week. You still accrue annual leave and you still have the protections a permanent employee has.

I took down my post, but here it is again for you:

Contract of employment with no end date = contract of indefinite duration = permanent employee.

The problem with zero hour contracts is that even though the person is an employee, they do not have a fixed number of hours every day, buy they are still employees.

And again, it is legal to record a conversation when consent is given by one party only, but you must be one of the parties in the conversation, you cannot record other people's conversations if you are not in them. Google is your friend.


http://dolores-maxwell.com/audio_recording_comments.php

Frowzy

davo10 wrote: »

If you have a contract of indefinite duration, you are an employee rather than a fixed term contractor, even if your job only involves you working one hour a week. You still accrue annual leave and you still have the protections a permanent employee has.

I took down my post, but here it is again for you:

Contract of employment with no end date = contract of indefinite duration = permanent employee.

The problem with zero hour contracts is that even though the person is an employee, they do not have a fixed number of hours every day, buy they are still employees.

And again, it is legal to record a conversation when consent is given by one party only, but you must be one of the parties in the conversation, you cannot record other people's conversations if you are not in them. Google is your friend.


http://dolores-maxwell.com/audio_recording_comments.php

“Contract of employment with no end date = contract of indefinite duration = permanent employee”

Is this a quote from you or is it a legal fact?
When on a CID hours are not guaranteed and other employee benefits are accrued in a pro rata basis. So it’s effectively like being on a waiting list. I’ve seen employers get around this. For example if I am on a CID as a checkout operator in a supermarket and I haven’t had work in two weeks then suddenly the employer requires someone to stock shelves, they are under no obligation to call me because I have a defined contract. Most employers would be fair about this but if they don’t like someone.......

It’s the difference between a permanent employee and a full-time employee, it’s semantics but offers the employers a way out in any case.

We’ll agree to disagree on the recording. I don’t believe it’s as simple as what someone has put in a blog. My understanding is that there are all kinds of conditions such as was the meeting planned, who instigated the call, were you under duress etc etc. It would be interesting to know if it would be accepted in a wrongful dismissal hearing. My experience is if they know you are recording them they won’t act outside of guidelines and court can be avoided.

The op has had a verbal warning in the past, there is history here and I would avoid aggravating the bear any further. Educate yourself on their own published policies and nail them to the cross on any point they have deviated from. DO NOT go to the meeting without some kind of witness.

Hopefully everything at work froze and broke and they will have bigger fish to fry tomorrow and you can complain for them wasting your time.

muckbrien

I've emailed the company and dropped in a letter to say that i'm unavailable for work meetings on my time off

Kristopherus

muckbrien wrote: »

I've emailed the company and dropped in a letter to say that i'm unavailable for work meetings on my time off

That,at least, should buy you some time to get a trusted colleague to attend with you. And you should also contact your union, if there's a union there.

muckbrien

Kristopherus wrote: »

That,at least, should buy you some time to get a trusted colleague to attend with you. And you should also contact your union, if there's a union there.

The company replied stating they were offering me a final opportunity to attend a disciplinary meeting during worktime.

Also stated my refusal to attend the first 2 meetings is now one of the issues for the disciplinary process itself.