Disciplinary meeting queries

muckbrien

Hi
I've been asked to attend a disciplinary meeting at work.

The letter doesn't contain any specifics or evidence merely 'attitude and behavior'

Do i have the right to insist on seeing specific charges and evidence prior to the meeting?

Also the company have scheduled the meeting on my day off.
Can they make me attend on my day off or do I have the right to insist the meeting takes place during work time.

I'm not a union member,thanks for any help

Samuel T. Cogley

Solicitor straight away if you're looking to stay.

Is this an investigation meeting or an actual disciplinary meeting where the outcome is to be determined? If it's the latter see the first point.

muckbrien

Disciplinary meeting

I don't get on with my manager

Prior to this I've only had a verbal warning

_Brian

It’s very odd that they are scheduling it for your day off, I can’t see any reason they would do this, they either didn’t realise, are trying to save you from fellow workers seeing you attend this meeting, or they’re just being dicks !

I’d contact them and explain it’s your day off and your not available to come in due to other commitments. Ask for it to be scheduled on a working day.

Explain that you will be asking someone to come along as moral support, absolutely insist on this and if they refuse ask for the refusal in writing before the meeting happens.

Ask for the specifics of the allegations in advance. Again, if they refuse ask for that refusal in writing.


See below a link to the code of best practice referring to discipline.

In the first part it specifically says you are entitled to clear details on the allegations.
The forth part specified your entitlement to a representative there.

Even non unionised companies need to be adhering to this, if it proceeds to anything of an appeal or tribunal they will be expected to have followed these and if they haven’t it will reflect badly on them. That is why it’s important to ask for refusals in writing so you have them for the future. Also employers don’t like committing shady stuff like this to writing.


http://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Good_Workplace_Relations/codes_practice/COP3/

EverythingGood

muckbrien wrote: »

Hi
I've been asked to attend a disciplinary meeting at work.

The letter doesn't contain any specifics or evidence merely 'attitude and behavior'

Do i have the right to insist on seeing specific charges and evidence prior to the meeting?

Also the company have scheduled the meeting on my day off.
Can they make me attend on my day off or do I have the right to insist the meeting takes place during work time.

I'm not a union member,thanks for any help

You have the right to take a colleague, he/she cant partake in anyway, or give any input, but they are there to take notes, and verify exactly what has been said. They can ask to clarify points, if required, to ensure accuracy.

HR / Management to not have to inform you of the contents of the meeting in advance.

muckbrien

I replied to the notice of a disciplinary hearing asking for written evidence and to have the meeting rescheduled

All I got back was a one page letter stating a list of complaints and a refusal to reschedule the meeting.

As the company has suddenly closed for the weekend(due to weather) I have no time to reply before the meeting on monday morning.I was intending to respond tomorrow.

_Brian

I’d say turn up Monday ready for the meeting. Don’t give them a chance to say you didn’t turn up or wouldn’t attend.

If your off work Monday will you be able to get a coworker to attend with you. I feel this is important, it will keep the meeting under control and have another person to back up your side of events if they try and pull a dodge.

Can I ask how long your with the company, if under a year you may be facing being let go.

muckbrien

_Brian wrote: »

I’d say turn up Monday ready for the meeting. Don’t give them a chance to say you didn’t turn up or wouldn’t attend.

If your off work Monday will you be able to get a coworker to attend with you. I feel this is important, it will keep the meeting under control and have another person to back up your side of events if they try and pull a dodge.

Can I ask how long your with the company, if under a year you may be facing being let go.

3 years but we sign new contracts every 12 months

Does that mean I can get dismissed easily?

Unlikely a co-worker will be available to attend

_Brian

No, if your 3 consequtive years you have protection and they need to follow due course.

It’s a desperate pity you can’t have someone with you.

It may be worth asking for it to be rescheduled but that might be hard at this stage.

Samuel T. Cogley

Have you contacted a solicitor yet (given the poor weather)?

muckbrien

Is there any point recording the meeting if i can't have a witness

Samuel T. Cogley

muckbrien wrote: »

Is there any point recording the meeting if i can't have a witness

Record it if you can, ideally without them knowing.

muckbrien

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Have you contacted a solicitor yet (given the poor weather)?

No
I'm not looking to stay long term just don't want to be sacked

davo10

muckbrien wrote: »

3 years but we sign new contracts every 12 months

Does that mean I can get dismissed easily?

Unlikely a co-worker will be available to attend

Are you working on fixed term contracts?

Samuel T. Cogley

muckbrien wrote: »

No
I'm not looking to stay long term just don't want to be sacked

A solicitor will be able to help you with an exit strategy. Personally I got a great reference and 6 months pay and a much more amicable parting of the ways. Without it I'd have been sacked and even though I was in the right would have found getting employment much harder.

Ronin247

I would send an email saying you cannot attend and asking them politely but firmly to arrange the work related meeting during your working hours. Ask them to supply you with a copy of the company disciplinary procedures and tell them in writing that you intend to record the meeting and will supply them with a copy of said recording for a nominal fee.

Do not let them bully you into accepting their terms for the meeting. They should have told you who will be attending the meeting and what the parameters are.

MissTheDome

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

A solicitor will be able to help you with an exit strategy.

Echo this. A good solicitor PRONTO.
You need to know exactly where you stand. Not "well some randomer on the internet said it so it must be true". Even if alot of the randomers here are very accurate .
This is your career, your income, your reputation. Whatever the cost - you need concrete advice.
Best of luck Monday.

muckbrien

Ronin247 wrote: »

I would send an email saying you cannot attend and asking them politely but firmly to arrange the work related meeting during your working hours. Ask them to supply you with a copy of the company disciplinary procedures and tell them in writing that you intend to record the meeting and will supply them with a copy of said recording for a nominal fee.

Do not let them bully you into accepting their terms for the meeting. They should have told you who will be attending the meeting and what the parameters are.

I already requested the meeting be moved and they refused
Not sure what I can do now

They say "failure to attend will result in appropriate further action being taken" in their correspondence

The employer has a reputation as a bully

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

muckbrien

Patww79 wrote: »

You can refuse to go before speaking to a solicitor first and having a witness present. Tell them this as your reason for requiring rescheduling.

I'm concerned at this late stage about sanctions
if I try to move the meeting

I need the wages coming in and don't have the resources for solicitors

Samuel T. Cogley

muckbrien wrote: »

I need the wages coming in and don't have the resources for solicitors

That's a chicken and egg situation. A solicitor may end up saving you thousands. In my case not only did the company end up paying for my solicitor the fee was less than €250.

martingriff

Even though you are not a union member they may accommodate you.

jimmycrackcorm

_Brian wrote:

I’d say turn up Monday ready for the meeting. Don’t give them a chance to say you didn’t turn up or wouldn’t attend.

You do not have to attend on your day off unless they are incoming a condition on your contract that stays you have to be flexible with your working hours.

In which case you have to be given notice that you will be required to work that day and the meeting will take place during the working day. You cannot be made turn up to work when it's not a working day.

muckbrien wrote:

They say "failure to attend will result in appropriate further action being taken" in their correspondence

Somebody in their HR must be wet behind the ears. Their whole disiplinary process will be contaminated if they take any action because you aren't there on a scheduled day off.

All you have to do is email, not phone for the record, to say that you'll happily attend on a scheduled working day,.

As another player mentioned, do record the meeting on your phone. If there even is a hint that they are not pleased about you not turning up then it simply calls into question that any resultant disciplinary action is as a result of this. The WRC and Labour Court are on the side of workers and will not tolerate any employer who does not go by the book.

muckbrien

I've decided that I'm not going to attend the meeting during my day off

Is it sufficient that I originally told them I'm unavailable during my day off or do I need to reply again to their letter refusing to reschedule.

I'll send an email anyhow. I've never actually emailed them before so would have to Google the address and send it?

dudara

Definitely let them know in writing that, as you have already informed them, you are unable to attend due to it being a day off and you having other commitments. Also state that you are available for the remainder of the week for a rescheduled meeting. That puts it back on them, and their intransigence will not look good.

muckbrien

Thanks

The company first scheduled a disciplinary meeting during worktime last week,they gave me 24 hrs notice.

I told my manager this was unacceptable and that's when they rescheduled the meeting to a day off.

I then told them in writing I was unavailable during my time off and they refused to reschedule

The company is closed due to the weather since so I'm not quite sure where I stand.


.

Frowzy

muckbrien wrote: »

Thanks

The company first scheduled a disciplinary meeting during worktime last week,they gave me 24 hrs notice.

I told my manager this was unacceptable and that's when they rescheduled the meeting to a day off.

I then told them in writing I was unavailable during my time off and they refused to reschedule

The company is closed due to the weather since so I'm not quite sure where I stand.


.

They do seems to be uncooperative here!

(1) Firstly, do you have a copy of the companies disciplinary procedure? They should have given you a copy with the request to attend the meeting, in any case it should be available to staff on a shared drive or on the intranet.

(2) you do not have to attend on your day off. You applied for a day off which was authorised by your line manager and HR would have been informed. It seems sloppy that they didn’t check this before scheduling the meeting and I suspect that they are embarrassed at the mistake and are trying to intimidate you to attend.
You’re within your rights here assuming you didn’t apply for the leave after you received notice of the meeting and you applied for the leave as per your staff procedures.

(3) You shouldn’t have had to request additional information on the meeting from them. When they asked you to attend the meeting they should have supplied you with an agenda and a list of attendees. Always request an agenda for a meeting such as this. It’s helpful as it stops them bringing up unrelated incidents from the past as if they do “spring” anything on you in a meeting you can refuse to discuss as it’s not on the agenda.

(4) Unless you have the direct email address of the HR manager I wouldn’t email just any address you find on the internet as random email accounts may not be checked, or may be checked/read by your peers. You are entitled to privacy in this matter.
If the company is within reasonable distance I would write a letter and drop it in the letterbox over the weekend, or simply leave a voice message on the HR managers phone stating
(a) that you have leave approved since ....... date and ..... notice was not sufficient to reschedule your plans.
(b) that you will make yourself available for a meeting at any other workday that is acceptable to them.
(c) you require an agenda for the meeting and a list of attendees at least 24 hours before the rescheduled date.
(d) you request that they furnish you with a copy of their approved and published disciplinary policy at least 24 hours before the rescheduled date (if they have not already done so)

(5) do not record the meeting without their knowledge, it’s illegal. See what the policy says about having someone attend, but if say the meeting is rescheduled for Tuesday and they haven’t given you an opportunity to arrange for a work colleague to attend with you to witness the meeting then by all means bring a recorder, but don’t be sneaky about it. I had a whole process dismissed before by doing this! I started the recording, stated the date and time and names of everyone present and as anyone spoke I said for the benefit of the recording that was ...... speaking. They were all too uncomfortable to speak so the person being disciplined ended up getting a don’t do it again.

Do everything by the book. Only you know why they are calling you in. You will know yourself if this is gross misconduct and therefore a sackable offence. Be realistic, if you think they are right then do try everything you can to prolong the process to give you a chance to find something else or be upfront and tell them that you will resign if they will let you have two months paid notice to find something else.

Join a union! You get free representation in matters like this for a nominal amount per month.

Best of Luck!

davo10

Op, are you on a fixed term contract? This is very important.

amtc

If you need the name of a good employment solicitor (who's not that expensive) pm me

zetor

It would be helpful if you could have a work buddy with you , they dont have to say anything, also there should be a procedure for disipiline , stage 1 verbal, stage 2 written , stage 3 , suspension etc , so you could be looking at stage 2, maby you will only get a telling off and asked what the issues are which could be seen to affect your work performance, this is where a trade union kicks in , unfortunately you dont have union rep fighting your corner but you still have employment laws which protect you, anyway best of luck.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

zetor

U nfortunately there are a lot of bullys out there who are very poor at managing and when things go belly up they blame the worker under them, it makes me mad when i hear some of the stories about jumped up managers and the way they treat people, i was a shopsteward myself for a number of years saw managers railroad people and were on high horses but as a group we had enough and went on strike , 6 weeks before there was meaningful talks and these managers were humble boys after and were till the recession and redundancies came up, i took it myself and changed my work pattern.But i do know that the employer in question had regained the balance of power and some of what was gained was lost as positions were weaker .But i know it was a much better job where managers had to respect the employees and discuss any changes of workpractice and have regard for peoples needs and form agreement which would suit both parties.

muckbrien

davo10 wrote: »

Op, are you on a fixed term contract? This is very important.

Yes

davo10

zetor wrote: »

U nfortunately there are a lot of bullys out there who are very poor at managing and when things go belly up they blame the worker under them, it makes me mad when i hear some of the stories about jumped up managers and the way they treat people, i was a shopsteward myself for a number of years saw managers railroad people and were on high horses but as a group we had enough and went on strike , 6 weeks before there was meaningful talks and these managers were humble boys after and were till the recession and redundancies came up, i took it myself and changed my work pattern.But i do know that the employer in question had regained the balance of power and some of what was gained was lost as positions were weaker .But i know it was a much better job where managers had to respect the employees and discuss any changes of workpractice and have regard for peoples needs and form agreement which would suit both parties.

We know nothing about the reason for the disciplinary apart from what the op posted about not getting on with his manager, we don't know what he did or whether it is warranted so we shouldn't speculate on whether he is being railroaded. What we do know is that he has already received a verbal warning and that his employer now believes there is a reason for taking further action. Perhaps the op might give a little more info.

I've posted twice that the nature of the employment contract is important, for very good reason. The op posted earlier that he signed a 12 month contract which leads me to think he is in fixed term employment. If he is, the most important piece of advice which can be given is: start job hunting.

If the fixed term contract has a clause saying the UDA does not apply at the end of the contract, then baring in mind he has a verbal warning and a disciplinary meeting, he is going to be let go at the end of the current contract. As he is employed less than 4 years on FTC's he is not employed on a contract of indefinite duration (permanent). Therefore any redress from WRC would be limited to the remaining term of the contract. Employing a solicitor at this stage would be costly and unless the redress is significantly more than the cost of a solicitor, it's a waste of money.

The op should certainly bring a colleague to the meeting and he will be given a right to appeal any decision. What he will have to weigh up is whether it is worth the hassle.

Of course, if the op is now a permanent employee, then redress up to the equivalent of 2 years wages can be awarded for unfair dismissal.

If memory serves be correctly, if an employee postpones a disciplinary meeting, they must reschedule it within 5 days of the original meeting so that may well be why the employer is not willing to have it any later than Monday. I'm not certain of this but I vaguely remember hearing it at a HR seminar for employers.

davo10

muckbrien wrote: »

Yes

When does the contract end?

muckbrien

davo10 wrote: »

When does the contract end?

There's not long left but I don't want to get sacked either

davo10

muckbrien wrote: »

There's not long left but I don't want to get sacked either

Unfortunately you are likely to be let go at the end of your contract. At this stage, the best thing for you to do is sit down and write out the issues you had with your manager, the part your manger played in this issue arising and how you have tried to do your job to the best of your ability despite your manager's behaviour. Right now this is about your reference, nothing more. Redress if you brought a case to the WRC would be minimal and may infact be counterproductive if you work in a small industry.

Put your case across and most of all, stay calm, blowing your top or making unfounded allegations will just confirm to them that the manager was right. Remember, your manager may be to blame so give them precise examples of his behaviour.

Mr. Incognito

Hello there.

Im a litigation solicitor. Obviously i cant give you legal advice here but more than happy to take a call. Pm me if you want.

Suffice to say what they are attempting to do is not in line with employment law. The ramifications for them could be quite expensive when all said and done. Very few HR managers in smaller organisations get disciplinary procedures correct.

Fyi its not unlawful to record the meeting. You are entitled to be told possible sanctions in advance and to have a representative present and if this is your fourth fixed term contract you are an employee.

davo10

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Hello there.

Im a litigation solicitor. Obviously i cant give you legal advice here but more than happy to take a call. Pm me if you want.

Suffice to say what they are attempting to do is not in line with employment law. The ramifications for them could be quite expensive when all said and done. Very few HR managers in smaller organisations get disciplinary procedures correct.

Fyi its not unlawful to record the meeting. You are entitled to be told possible sanctions in advance and to have a representative present and if this is your fourth fixed term contract you are an employee.

As a solicitor you will know sub contractors and FT contractors are excluded under the Unfair Dismissals Act and redress is limited to the term of the contract. If it's nearly at an end, then the op is likely to get very little from litigation. WRC rulings are limited to loss of earnings up to 104 weeks or in the case of a term contract, wages up to the end of the term.

Incidentally, you can have as many term contracts as you like, it's only when the cumulative period of the contracts exceeds 4 years, not up to 4 years, that you become a full time employee. Op has said he is working there 3 years.

muckbrien

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Hello there.

Im a litigation solicitor. Obviously i cant give you legal advice here but more than happy to take a call. Pm me if you want.

Suffice to say what they are attempting to do is not in line with employment law. The ramifications for them could be quite expensive when all said and done. Very few HR managers in smaller organisations get disciplinary procedures correct.

Fyi its not unlawful to record the meeting. You are entitled to be told possible sanctions in advance and to have a representative present and if this is your fourth fixed term contract you are an employee.

It's my third

Frowzy

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Fyi its not unlawful to record the meeting. You are entitled to be told possible sanctions in advance and to have a representative present and if this is your fourth fixed term contract you are an employee.

I said in my post that it’s not legal if you don’t tell them that you’re recording not that it was unlawful.

If it’s his fourth fixed term contract it means that they can’t treat him any less favourably than full time staff, it also means that he can’t be let go to be replaced with someone else, not quite the same thing as a permanent position. He can still be disciplined and sacked on foot of the disclipinary hearing.

davo10

Frowzy wrote: »

I said in my post that it’s not legal if you don’t tell them that you’re recording not that it was unlawful.

If it’s his fourth fixed term contract it means that they can’t treat him any less favourably than full time staff, it also means that he can’t be let go to be replaced with someone else, not quite the same thing as a permanent position. He can still be disciplined and sacked on foot of the disclipinary hearing.

This is incorrect, at the end of the fourth one year contract, the op would be employed for 4 years, it is after the end of that contract i.e. 4 years duration, that the employer would have to make the op permanent, not at the beginning of the fourth year.

Op just confirmed it was the 3rd, so no argument there.


FTC are explained pretty well here:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/contracts_of_employment/fixed_term_or_specified_purpose_contracts.html

Frowzy

davo10 wrote: »

This is incorrect, at the end of the fourth one year contract, the op would be employed for 4 years, it is after the end of that contract i.e. 4 years duration, that the employer would have to make the op permanent, not at the beginning of the fourth year.

Op just confirmed it was the 3rd, so no argument there.


FTC are explained pretty well here:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/contracts_of_employment/fixed_term_or_specified_purpose_contracts.html

Fair enough, if you say so. But am I missing something on that link? I don’t see where it says that he has to be made permanent?

It says that the contract can’t be fixed term, ie have no end date. How many people do you know on a fixed term zero hours contract? That’s a point not worth debating, all the employer will do is argue that the position was only ever for a particular project which has now come to an end and they don’t need him anymore. They will then hire someone under a different job title.

In this case the op needs to pick their battles wisely, this is a grey area in employment law and one that not worth fighting.

Frowzy

davo10 wrote: »

It's in the section "Renewal of fixed term contracts", second point.

This is what I’m seeing;

“If an employee whose employment started before 14 July 2003 has completed 3 years’ continuous service as a fixed-term employee, the employer may renew their fixed-term contract only once for a period of no more than 1 year.
If an employee whose employment started after 14 July 2003 has been employed on 2 or more continuous fixed-term contracts, the total duration of those contracts may not exceed 4 years.
After this, if the employer wishes to renew the employee’s contract, it must be an open-ended contract unless there are objective grounds justifying the renewal of the contract for a fixed term only.“

This doesn’t mean that the employer has to make them permanent, they can give them a contract with no end date.

muckbrien

Do I have rights and can't be just let go?

Employed for almost 3 years?

Munstermissy

Frowzy wrote: »

I said in my post that it’s not legal if you don’t tell them that you’re recording not that it was unlawful.

What is the difference here please? I was recorded without prior knowledge and agreement

davo10

muckbrien wrote: »

Do I have rights and can't be just let go?

Employed for almost 3 years?

You can be let go, but every dismissal is unfair unless proved otherwise.

The problem you have, is that you are a fixed term employee approaching the end of your contract. Even if they dismissed you and you brought a claim against them for unfair dismissal, the most they would have to pay you in redress is the amount of wages you lost between the date you were dismissed and the end of your contract, in other words, very little. So yes, and they can sack you, you can take a claim against them, but it may not be worth it.

davo10

Munstermissy wrote: »

What is the difference here please? I was recorded without prior knowledge and agreement

In Ireland, only one person needs to give consent to record a conversation, the most recent high profile example of this was Garda Maurice McCabe recording telephone conversations without the knowledge of the other party involved.

Creol1

I would recommend to the OP that, not being able to afford a solicitor, he book in to a Free Legal Advice clinic where he can talk to a lawyer for free (although this is limited to advice, not representation).

muckbrien

davo10 wrote: »

You can be let go, but every dismissal is unfair unless proved otherwise.

The problem you have, is that you are a fixed term employee approaching the end of your contract. Even if they dismissed you and you brought a claim against them for unfair dismissal, the most they would have to pay you in redress is the amount of wages you lost between the date you were dismissed and the end of your contract, in other words, very little. So yes, and they can sack you, you can take a claim against them, but it may not be worth it.

So they can pretty much do what they like and it won't cost them?

Haithabu

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Solicitor straight away if you're looking to stay.

I personally don't think that it is a good idea to get an external solicitor involved. That only costs money and escalates the situation unnecessarily. If anything brought against you is justified then a solicitor won't be able to help you. If it is not justified you can still contest it first internally and if it leads to dismissal you can still get a solicitor to claim compensation for unfair dismissal. But hiring a solicitor in order to stay is unlikely a good investment, as soon a solicitor is involved the relationship between your employer and yourself is beyond repair anyway.

Typically disciplinary meetings are to address a breach of the employers policies and procedures. It does not automatically mean you will be fired. so if you are looking to stay my suggestion would be to cooperate, accept responsibility for what was done wrong and reject responsibility if it was not your fault.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Record it if you can, ideally without them knowing.

I personally would think that this is also a bad idea. If they don't know about it you miht not be allowed to use it later. Either way, that would probably end your employement as the employer can argue that trust etween you and them is now gone. Better take a witness with you or simply ask for a copy of the notes that are taken by the HR representative during the meeting.