Irish Grand National 2018

Slattsy

The like of Blake knows what side his bread is buttered and rarely goes against the grain. He's a yes man, a nodder.
I never understood the fawning over him tbh.

Joe_ Public

In fairness i'm trying to think of one racing journalist who goes against the grain and am struggling....either side of the pond. Recall Alastair Down calling a few people cheats a couple of decades ago, getting spanked for his troubles and becoming the biggest fawner in the business. Does write well Mr Down to be fair to him.

danganabu

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Read some of that twitter exchange before it started to get silly and have to agree with Tony Mullins. Author is living on another planet with regards to that article. Mullins has been in the business all his life so, with the greatest respect, I'm inclined to hear his view before the authors. Also like to know what the likes of Charlie Swan, Joanna Morgan, David Wachman etc would make of that piece? If only they'd tried harder, set up a twitter account etc

Reality is, and he gets to it towards the end, you can make it to the top if you are focussed, single minded and just incredibly driven enough to make it your life. Henry de Bromhead and Ger Lyons on the flat are examples of that. But where would Henry be now if it hadnt been for the Potts patronage? And as hard and driven and admirable as Ger Lyons is, the reality is the best he can hope for is for a few leftover crumbs from the top table. How many want to strive so hard in their lives for that much limited success? Not many I would say.

It seems also that people are equating genuine concern for the competitiveness of Irish racing with disdain for both Mullins and Elliott and what they have achieved. Which is abject nonsense. It's both possible to admire what they have done and still feel concern at the way racing is going. I attended nearly every Cheltenham festival in the 90s and still feel chills when I think of Danoli and Dorans Pride and the heroic efforts of the Bowes to win a Stayers with the great Istabraq conqueror Limestone Lad. My abiding memory of this year (Gold Cup apart that is!) is the RUK interviewer catching Elliott with "well Gordon here we are again, you must be happy with that?" and signing off the same interview with "well done Gordon, I'm sure we'll be talking again." No slight at all on a great trainer, but I cant help but be ever so slightly weary of it all.

You nearly had me until I got to Charlie Swan - the words ivy and a wall come to mind!

Joe_ Public

danganabu wrote: »

You nearly had me until I got to Charlie Swan - the words ivy and a wall come to mind!

Maybe but Charlie proves the point, didnt really want it that badly, training seemed more like a hobby to him as it had been to his father before him. Good jockey, balls of steel as Eddie O'Grady dubbed him, but didn't he stop riding fences well before his retirement? Has his money made, doesnt need all that hassle in his life.

But sure take out Charlie Swan and replace him with Colm Murphy or Sandra Hughes or the others that will be joining them soon. It's great when your a trainer going to the sales with an owners money to splurge, a different thing when you're forking out your own money and then having to find buyers afterwards which is where most of them are at. As any trainer will tell you, owning even a leg of their own horses is the quickest way to the poorhouse.

danganabu

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Maybe but Charlie proves the point, didnt really want it that badly, training seemed more like a hobby to him as it had been to his father before him. Good jockey, balls of steel as Eddie O'Grady dubbed him, but didn't he stop riding fences well before his retirement? Has his money made, doesnt need all that hassle in his life.

But sure take out Charlie Swan and replace him with Colm Murphy or Sandra Hughes or the others that will be joining them soon. It's great when your a trainer going to the sales with an owners money to splurge, a different thing when you're forking out your own money and then having to find buyers afterwards which is where most of them are at. As any trainer will tell you, owning even a leg of their own horses is the quickest way to the poorhouse.

Ah I know exactly what you are saying but Swan doesnt fit into that bracket, he was getting good horses sent to him by JP and Gigginstown as well, and only because of what he did as a jockey ( one of the best of his era) but his demise as a trainer had absolutely zero to do with the current landscape and the dominance of the select few, Murphy is a far better example.

Joe_ Public

danganabu wrote: »

Ah I know exactly what you are saying but Swan doesnt fit into that bracket, he was getting good horses sent to him by JP and Gigginstown as well, and only because of what he did as a jockey ( one of the best of his era) but his demise as a trainer had absolutely zero to do with the current landscape and the dominance of the select few, Murphy is a far better example.

Thats true, I reckon Charlie fit into the bracket of a guy hanging up his riding boots and just going down the path that seemed handiest. He had the land there, the stables all ready and the friendship with JP so must've seemed the natural thing to take out the license. Same way a lot of ex footballers drift into management but are just not suited to it. Dont think the desire was ever really there with Charlie, maybe if it was might have been a different story.

Dinny Hogan on the other hand....now there's a good example of a fella making his way with what little he has. Dont think he learned it while working at Charlie's anyway

danganabu

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Thats true, I reckon Charlie fit into the bracket of a guy hanging up his riding boots and just going down the path that seemed handiest. He had the land there, the stables all ready and the friendship with JP so must've seemed the natural thing to take out the license. Same way a lot of ex footballers drift into management but are just not suited to it. Dont think the desire was ever really there with Charlie, maybe if it was might have been a different story.

Dinny Hogan on the other hand....now there's a good example of a fella making his way with what little he has. Dont think he learned it while working at Charlie's anyway

Had a leg of a horse with Denis one time and know a good few lads that have worked there, good lad and doing very well for himself.

Joe_ Public

danganabu wrote: »

Had a leg of a horse with Denis one time and know a good few lads that have worked there, good lad and doing very well for himself.

Dont know him but comes across well and is undoubtedly shrewd. Am i right in thinking he's the non-drinking, non-smokign type? Not sure why i think that, but he seems the driven, no nonsense type needed for success in that brutal game. Knows his way round a well drilled and executed gamble too which helps.

danganabu

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Dont know him but comes across well and is undoubtedly shrewd. Am i right in thinking he's the non-drinking, non-smokign type? Not sure why i think that, but he seems the driven, no nonsense type needed for success in that brutal game. Knows his way round a well drilled and executed gamble too which helps.

Never seen him take a drink and never thought to ask really beause anytime I have been in his comapny he was racing the next day, its a 24/7 gig really especially when you are doing as much as he is, he's training and riding and not afraid to muck out a few stables either, has even on ocassion driven the horse box to the races.

Joe_ Public

danganabu wrote: »

Never seen him take a drink and never thought to ask really beause anytime I have been in his comapny he was racing the next day, its a 24/7 gig really especially when you are doing as much as he is, he's training and riding and not afraid to muck out a few stables either, has even on ocassion driven the horse box to the races.

Absolutely, its all consuming if you want to make a proper go of it in todays climate. The common denominator if you check the top of the trainers lists both codes is non socialisers, you just love the life and live it. I think the difference between now and the old days is you cant do it half hearted or with a safety net and still expect to compete with Mullins & co. Tom Dreaper may be one of the all time great Irish trainers but he was actually a far bigger farmer than he was a trainer.

djPSB

Is the Gordon Elliott business model sustainable though with such a high volume of horses.

Granted all going well now, but running such an operation must involve massive overheads etc.

Should be fine as long as Gigginstown are there and don't move again.

Mullins lower numbers higher quality should be more viable in the long term.

danganabu

djPSB wrote: »

Is the Gordon Elliott business model sustainable though with such a high volume of horses.

Granted all going well now, but running such an operation must involve massive overheads etc.

Should be fine as long as Gigginstown are there and don't move again.

Mullins lower numbers higher quality should be more viable in the long term.

They're both kind of tied to each other, Elliot couldnt possibly fill his boxes (a large number of which were specifically built for Giggi) and the O'Leary's dont really have anyone else to go to, certainly no one that could take them all or even a large % of them.

Francie Barrett

Gordon first and third in the National.
Willie second in the National.

If someone had told Total Recall that it was supposed to jump fences today, it would probably have been a 1, 2, 3, 4 for the pair.

Can anyone explain why these two trainers are so far ahead of everyone else? I haven't an iota.

Joe_ Public

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Gordon first and third in the National.
Willie second in the National.

If someone had told Total Recall that it was supposed to jump fences today, it would probably have been a 1, 2, 3, 4 for the pair.

Can anyone explain why these two trainers are so far ahead of everyone else? I haven't an iota.

Well, Willie Mullins from a young age was assistant to one of the shrewdest and most innovative trainers in the business. Attention to detail second to none, he built that stable up bit by bit for 20 years before being acknowledged as the best in the business. Was not an overnight success by any means.

Elliott, on the other hand, was pretty much an overnight success, literally came from nowhere. Really hard to explain frankly.

Joe_ Public

Single biggest factor for Mullins I think was the French angle. Had a long standing connection with the best buyer there and increased the quality in his stable 10 fold. Guy is just a genius, simple as that.

paddy no 11

If I was a brit I'd be pretty cynical about Ireland but think the French angle has been huge as said. If Henderson has a bad Cheltenham it will be a massacre next year