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Irish Grand National 2018

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,966 ✭✭✭✭Gavin "shels"


    Down to 6 which meet the trends...

    Mall Dini
    Jetstream Jack
    Call It Magic
    Sutton Manor
    Westerner Point
    Killaro Boy

    Out of the 6 trend horses just one finished - Call it Magic in 7th.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,473 ✭✭✭longshotvalue


    I love National Hunt Racing, but there is just no way that race should have run yesterday. It was a tough watch all the way. Id hazard a guess that most of the courses that had racing put off in the uk yesterday would have had better ground. The finish that they were all saying was great was actually a shameful watch and fodder for all the nutters that want to ban racing.

    I mean for feck sake just run it next Saturday or something.

    I'm usually a willie apologist, but id have to question running cheltenham horses on that ground so soon after the festival just because of a stupid trainers championship that means nothing. Same goes for the likes of Maldini who had a hard race at cheltenham as well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,006 ✭✭✭EICVD


    Some ****e posted on this thread the last few pages.


  • Registered Users Posts: 265 ✭✭antietam


    I backed Bellshill with a few Euro as I firmly believed he was the class act.Mullins is not happy that a "bright light"caught his eye[Bellshill] at the last where the jockey said"he still had a ton in hand and I could not see from this light".Mullins has now put a team of investigators in place to investigate this incident.


  • Registered Users Posts: 265 ✭✭antietam


    Nulty wrote: »
    Don't think I've seen a horse stop as fast as Forge Meadow there

    Maybe Kate broke off the relationship with Joseph that was so strong last year to Jessies detriment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 976 ✭✭✭supremenovice


    antietam wrote: »
    Maybe Kate broke off the relationship with Joseph that was so strong last year to Jessies detriment.

    Care to elaborate?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭ziggy


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 265 ✭✭antietam


    ziggy wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    That is the trainers prerogative I would Imagine but you with superior knowledge might tell Willie Mullins that he is clueless.As I recently posted there some very brilliant posters with serious knowledge on this site and then again there are you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭ziggy


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭finglashoop


    antietam wrote: »
    That is the trainers prerogative I would Imagine but you with superior knowledge might tell Willie Mullins that he is clueless.As I recently posted there some very brilliant posters with serious knowledge on this site and then again there are you.

    Where is this investigator quote?

    I did see mullins said he would review the tape as the horse may have been distracted by someone in a high vis vest, jockey said he felt he had plenty left in engine.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,681 ✭✭✭BumperD


    Interesting article by Blake on this debate about domination of the big two owners and trainers

    http://www.attheraces.com/blogs/kevin-blake


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭selectamatic


    I find the bright light story a tad convenient especially since it was David riding.

    That said I'm a sour punter who had arkwrisht backed e/w so perhaps that's colouring my opinion.

    Anyone know how many places Ladbrokes were paying on?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,835 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett


    BumperD wrote: »
    Interesting article by Blake on this debate about domination of the big two owners and trainers

    http://www.attheraces.com/blogs/kevin-blake
    Have you ever read as much fawning, self-servicing rubbish in your life. Of course Kevin Blake won't criticise the status quo, he is dependent on access to these big hitters in order to have a career. His suggestion that all trainers need to do to get horses into their yards is have a Facebook page is just beyond contempt.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 605 ✭✭✭famagusta


    That's exactly right. He's too afraid to call it like it is. Races like the Ryanair at the weekend are not good for racing. The normal punters will get turned off with a gang of giggy horses in every race


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭maximo31


    Have you ever read as much fawning, self-servicing rubbish in your life. Of course Kevin Blake won't criticise the status quo, he is dependent on access to these big hitters in order to have a career. His suggestion that all trainers need to do to get horses into their yards is have a Facebook page is just beyond contempt.

    Tony Mullins not too impressed with it either. Having it out with him on Twitter!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,681 ✭✭✭BumperD


    Elliott has become very popular due to success on the track just like Mullins before. I’m a little shocked reading the responses here, what do you want communist style leveling to reward mediocrity in terms of trainers and their results?

    I acknowledge it’s far from ideal in fact a little disastrous in terms of two trainers dominating but let the others up their game rather than punishing success, seems completely ludicrous to suggest we start that and alien to everything any straight thinking person should be aiming for imo


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭Motivator


    BumperD wrote: »
    Elliott has become very popular due to success on the track just like Mullins before. I’m a little shocked reading the responses here, what do you want communist style leveling to reward mediocrity in terms of trainers and their results?

    I acknowledge it’s far from ideal in fact a little disastrous in terms of two trainers dominating but let the others up their game rather than punishing success, seems completely ludicrous to suggest we start that and alien to everything any straight thinking person should be aiming for imo

    In fairness it’s very difficult to expect other trainers to “up their game” when the likes of Gigginstown and JP are buying horses for €400,000. The powerful owners are going to send the horses to the powerful yards and while I get that, it’s very frustrating as a racing fan to see that.

    The average owner can no longer compete because even average animals are now fetching €100k+ at the sales and for those able to source the odd decent horse for small money they’ll end up getting an offer they can’t refuse off the big operations. A local lad to me here in Cork had a pointer that he bred himself. It won a ptp and he ended up having to sell it when an offer came in. He wanted to keep the horse but had to sell it on as he just isn’t wealthy enough to pass up a potentially one in a lifetime deal. I haven’t met him since to get the full details off him but I’m interested to see what happened and how the deal was done. He’s happy it’s gone to a big yard and they’ll hopefully get the best out of it but all he wanted was to keep it himself and have it in training locally.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,681 ✭✭✭BumperD


    Well I’d say he’s very happy to trouser the cash, buy a new one with some of the profits and see can he keep a new one in training for fun.

    Regrading the prices, I agree 100%, the prices are getting a little out of control and beyond the reach of most bar a small few. I don’t know the solution but certainly punishing successful trainers is one I would be totally against. If Elliott was able start 10 yrs ago from nothing and I see olly Murphy off to a flyer already in the uk, there is surely an opportunity for others? That I’m certain of. Sure you can look at the results of some top trainers in the uk with the firepower they have it’s shocking (don’t name names here as it’s not necessary), equally, some big owners are paying through the nose for bloodstock who are also mentioned here and I’ve no idea how they’re results are so poor, again surely an opportunity.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,277 ✭✭✭danganabu


    BumperD wrote: »
    Well I’d say he’s very happy to trouser the cash, buy a new one with some of the profits and see can he keep a new one in training for fun.

    Yeah I would see the massive increase in prices as the silver lining to be perfectly honest, surely when a few are willing to pay above and beyond the real value for an asset it is a benefit to the small man at the end of the supply chain i.e. the breeders and the point to point handlers and owners.

    I agree with your over riding sentiment Bumper and that of Kevin Blake that punishing those that are successful is not the answer (mind you I would agree with some sort of a cap on number of entries from one owner in a race) and I do think a lot of the discontent, not all of it mind but a lot, is owing to the fact that the two owners dominating the Irish scene (Gigginstown primarily and Ricci to a lesser extent) are both shall we say not very likeable!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Read some of that twitter exchange before it started to get silly and have to agree with Tony Mullins. Author is living on another planet with regards to that article. Mullins has been in the business all his life so, with the greatest respect, I'm inclined to hear his view before the authors. Also like to know what the likes of Charlie Swan, Joanna Morgan, David Wachman etc would make of that piece? If only they'd tried harder, set up a twitter account etc

    Reality is, and he gets to it towards the end, you can make it to the top if you are focussed, single minded and just incredibly driven enough to make it your life. Henry de Bromhead and Ger Lyons on the flat are examples of that. But where would Henry be now if it hadnt been for the Potts patronage? And as hard and driven and admirable as Ger Lyons is, the reality is the best he can hope for is for a few leftover crumbs from the top table. How many want to strive so hard in their lives for that much limited success? Not many I would say.

    It seems also that people are equating genuine concern for the competitiveness of Irish racing with disdain for both Mullins and Elliott and what they have achieved. Which is abject nonsense. It's both possible to admire what they have done and still feel concern at the way racing is going. I attended nearly every Cheltenham festival in the 90s and still feel chills when I think of Danoli and Dorans Pride and the heroic efforts of the Bowes to win a Stayers with the great Istabraq conqueror Limestone Lad. My abiding memory of this year (Gold Cup apart that is!) is the RUK interviewer catching Elliott with "well Gordon here we are again, you must be happy with that?" and signing off the same interview with "well done Gordon, I'm sure we'll be talking again." No slight at all on a great trainer, but I cant help but be ever so slightly weary of it all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,775 ✭✭✭✭Slattsy


    The like of Blake knows what side his bread is buttered and rarely goes against the grain. He's a yes man, a nodder.
    I never understood the fawning over him tbh.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    In fairness i'm trying to think of one racing journalist who goes against the grain and am struggling....either side of the pond. Recall Alastair Down calling a few people cheats a couple of decades ago, getting spanked for his troubles and becoming the biggest fawner in the business. Does write well Mr Down to be fair to him.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,277 ✭✭✭danganabu


    Read some of that twitter exchange before it started to get silly and have to agree with Tony Mullins. Author is living on another planet with regards to that article. Mullins has been in the business all his life so, with the greatest respect, I'm inclined to hear his view before the authors. Also like to know what the likes of Charlie Swan, Joanna Morgan, David Wachman etc would make of that piece? If only they'd tried harder, set up a twitter account etc

    Reality is, and he gets to it towards the end, you can make it to the top if you are focussed, single minded and just incredibly driven enough to make it your life. Henry de Bromhead and Ger Lyons on the flat are examples of that. But where would Henry be now if it hadnt been for the Potts patronage? And as hard and driven and admirable as Ger Lyons is, the reality is the best he can hope for is for a few leftover crumbs from the top table. How many want to strive so hard in their lives for that much limited success? Not many I would say.

    It seems also that people are equating genuine concern for the competitiveness of Irish racing with disdain for both Mullins and Elliott and what they have achieved. Which is abject nonsense. It's both possible to admire what they have done and still feel concern at the way racing is going. I attended nearly every Cheltenham festival in the 90s and still feel chills when I think of Danoli and Dorans Pride and the heroic efforts of the Bowes to win a Stayers with the great Istabraq conqueror Limestone Lad. My abiding memory of this year (Gold Cup apart that is!) is the RUK interviewer catching Elliott with "well Gordon here we are again, you must be happy with that?" and signing off the same interview with "well done Gordon, I'm sure we'll be talking again." No slight at all on a great trainer, but I cant help but be ever so slightly weary of it all.

    You nearly had me until I got to Charlie Swan - the words ivy and a wall come to mind!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    danganabu wrote: »
    You nearly had me until I got to Charlie Swan - the words ivy and a wall come to mind!

    Maybe but Charlie proves the point, didnt really want it that badly, training seemed more like a hobby to him as it had been to his father before him. Good jockey, balls of steel as Eddie O'Grady dubbed him, but didn't he stop riding fences well before his retirement? Has his money made, doesnt need all that hassle in his life.

    But sure take out Charlie Swan and replace him with Colm Murphy or Sandra Hughes or the others that will be joining them soon. It's great when your a trainer going to the sales with an owners money to splurge, a different thing when you're forking out your own money and then having to find buyers afterwards which is where most of them are at. As any trainer will tell you, owning even a leg of their own horses is the quickest way to the poorhouse.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,277 ✭✭✭danganabu


    Maybe but Charlie proves the point, didnt really want it that badly, training seemed more like a hobby to him as it had been to his father before him. Good jockey, balls of steel as Eddie O'Grady dubbed him, but didn't he stop riding fences well before his retirement? Has his money made, doesnt need all that hassle in his life.

    But sure take out Charlie Swan and replace him with Colm Murphy or Sandra Hughes or the others that will be joining them soon. It's great when your a trainer going to the sales with an owners money to splurge, a different thing when you're forking out your own money and then having to find buyers afterwards which is where most of them are at. As any trainer will tell you, owning even a leg of their own horses is the quickest way to the poorhouse.

    Ah I know exactly what you are saying but Swan doesnt fit into that bracket, he was getting good horses sent to him by JP and Gigginstown as well, and only because of what he did as a jockey ( one of the best of his era) but his demise as a trainer had absolutely zero to do with the current landscape and the dominance of the select few, Murphy is a far better example.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    danganabu wrote: »
    Ah I know exactly what you are saying but Swan doesnt fit into that bracket, he was getting good horses sent to him by JP and Gigginstown as well, and only because of what he did as a jockey ( one of the best of his era) but his demise as a trainer had absolutely zero to do with the current landscape and the dominance of the select few, Murphy is a far better example.

    Thats true, I reckon Charlie fit into the bracket of a guy hanging up his riding boots and just going down the path that seemed handiest. He had the land there, the stables all ready and the friendship with JP so must've seemed the natural thing to take out the license. Same way a lot of ex footballers drift into management but are just not suited to it. Dont think the desire was ever really there with Charlie, maybe if it was might have been a different story.

    Dinny Hogan on the other hand....now there's a good example of a fella making his way with what little he has. Dont think he learned it while working at Charlie's anyway ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,277 ✭✭✭danganabu


    Thats true, I reckon Charlie fit into the bracket of a guy hanging up his riding boots and just going down the path that seemed handiest. He had the land there, the stables all ready and the friendship with JP so must've seemed the natural thing to take out the license. Same way a lot of ex footballers drift into management but are just not suited to it. Dont think the desire was ever really there with Charlie, maybe if it was might have been a different story.

    Dinny Hogan on the other hand....now there's a good example of a fella making his way with what little he has. Dont think he learned it while working at Charlie's anyway ;)

    Had a leg of a horse with Denis one time and know a good few lads that have worked there, good lad and doing very well for himself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    danganabu wrote: »
    Had a leg of a horse with Denis one time and know a good few lads that have worked there, good lad and doing very well for himself.

    Dont know him but comes across well and is undoubtedly shrewd. Am i right in thinking he's the non-drinking, non-smokign type? Not sure why i think that, but he seems the driven, no nonsense type needed for success in that brutal game. Knows his way round a well drilled and executed gamble too which helps.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,277 ✭✭✭danganabu


    Dont know him but comes across well and is undoubtedly shrewd. Am i right in thinking he's the non-drinking, non-smokign type? Not sure why i think that, but he seems the driven, no nonsense type needed for success in that brutal game. Knows his way round a well drilled and executed gamble too which helps.

    Never seen him take a drink and never thought to ask really beause anytime I have been in his comapny he was racing the next day, its a 24/7 gig really especially when you are doing as much as he is, he's training and riding and not afraid to muck out a few stables either, has even on ocassion driven the horse box to the races.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    danganabu wrote: »
    Never seen him take a drink and never thought to ask really beause anytime I have been in his comapny he was racing the next day, its a 24/7 gig really especially when you are doing as much as he is, he's training and riding and not afraid to muck out a few stables either, has even on ocassion driven the horse box to the races.

    Absolutely, its all consuming if you want to make a proper go of it in todays climate. The common denominator if you check the top of the trainers lists both codes is non socialisers, you just love the life and live it. I think the difference between now and the old days is you cant do it half hearted or with a safety net and still expect to compete with Mullins & co. Tom Dreaper may be one of the all time great Irish trainers but he was actually a far bigger farmer than he was a trainer.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,299 ✭✭✭djPSB


    Is the Gordon Elliott business model sustainable though with such a high volume of horses.

    Granted all going well now, but running such an operation must involve massive overheads etc.

    Should be fine as long as Gigginstown are there and don't move again.

    Mullins lower numbers higher quality should be more viable in the long term.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,277 ✭✭✭danganabu


    djPSB wrote: »
    Is the Gordon Elliott business model sustainable though with such a high volume of horses.

    Granted all going well now, but running such an operation must involve massive overheads etc.

    Should be fine as long as Gigginstown are there and don't move again.

    Mullins lower numbers higher quality should be more viable in the long term.

    They're both kind of tied to each other, Elliot couldnt possibly fill his boxes (a large number of which were specifically built for Giggi) and the O'Leary's dont really have anyone else to go to, certainly no one that could take them all or even a large % of them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,835 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett


    Gordon first and third in the National.
    Willie second in the National.

    If someone had told Total Recall that it was supposed to jump fences today, it would probably have been a 1, 2, 3, 4 for the pair.

    Can anyone explain why these two trainers are so far ahead of everyone else? I haven't an iota.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Gordon first and third in the National.
    Willie second in the National.

    If someone had told Total Recall that it was supposed to jump fences today, it would probably have been a 1, 2, 3, 4 for the pair.

    Can anyone explain why these two trainers are so far ahead of everyone else? I haven't an iota.

    Well, Willie Mullins from a young age was assistant to one of the shrewdest and most innovative trainers in the business. Attention to detail second to none, he built that stable up bit by bit for 20 years before being acknowledged as the best in the business. Was not an overnight success by any means.

    Elliott, on the other hand, was pretty much an overnight success, literally came from nowhere. Really hard to explain frankly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Single biggest factor for Mullins I think was the French angle. Had a long standing connection with the best buyer there and increased the quality in his stable 10 fold. Guy is just a genius, simple as that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,645 ✭✭✭paddy no 11


    If I was a brit I'd be pretty cynical about Ireland but think the French angle has been huge as said. If Henderson has a bad Cheltenham it will be a massacre next year


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