New Worldwide Handicap System

prawnsambo

Russman wrote: »

That's been me exactly this year :eek: ! Missed the buffer by 1 shot about 8 times in a row, yet was averaging having to chip out sideways from trees 6 times per round. Can't tell you the number of times I've turned with 20+ points but then you've to hit it straight on our back nine ! If I could find a way onto the short grass (or even just "grass" !) I'd be several shots lower. As it is, I'm looking at going from 8.7 out to 10.4 under the WHS and I (perhaps misguidedly) feel that next season I'll shoot some mad scores if I straighten out the tees shots even a little bit.

Would dropping down a club not help? Like a three wood or a four iron? I know you will lose a bit of distance, but would it not be better in the long run?

Please ignore if you're already doing this.

charlieIRL

Russman wrote: »

That's been me exactly this year :eek: ! Missed the buffer by 1 shot about 8 times in a row,

Exact same here. if I could get 1 point from scratches I'd be delighted and get me handicap back down.

GreeBo

blue note wrote: »

I wonder how different the guy having pars and birdies but coming in with scores of +22 is from someone punching the ball up the fairways to get to the same score.

If someone is having a few scratches every round, that's not something that is easily fixed. There's probably swing problems there that make affect their control. They might get away with it for the front 9 and have birdies and pars, but then scratch a couple of holes on the back which will offset them. If they sort out their problems they will shoot better scores and their handicap will come down. Similarly if the guy punching the ball up the fairway can work on his rotation and add distance, he can also start putting in better scores.

The two types of golfer are indeed different, but I don't think a handicap system needs to distinguish between them.

Well the guy punching the ball about the place isn't likely to suddenly have 45 points, but the guy who has 8's and birdies/pars could by avoiding the 8's.

If a system is looking at your potential (which both are since they are weighted to your better scores) then there is (at least for me) a big difference between the potential of both players.

Russman

prawnsambo wrote: »

Would dropping down a club not help? Like a three wood or a four iron? I know you will lose a bit of distance, but would it not be better in the long run?

Please ignore if you're already doing this.

Ohh it probably would, but between forgetting to do it and the 4 or 5 good ones giving a false sense of hope, it just never happens !:)

Actually "never" is not quite true, we've a few par 4s where driver can be too much and its often these ones I mess up with the 3W.

blue note

GreeBo wrote: »

Well the guy punching the ball about the place isn't likely to suddenly have 45 points, but the guy who has 8's and birdies/pars could by avoiding the 8's.

If a system is looking at your potential (which both are since they are weighted to your better scores) then there is (at least for me) a big difference between the potential of both players.

I don't know if you're right. You might be and getting rid of the bad scores feels like it should be easier than hitting more pars, but I'm not sure if it actually is.

If someone is playing off 18, but putting in half a dozen pars every round and regular birdies, they must be having several disaster holes per round. I looked at my last round (my best round) before my break from the game and I had 10 pars and two birdies. But even on a day when I was playing that well I still had 2 scratches and a double. Recently I was level par on the front 9 and +11 on the back. Just because you are able to hit the good shots does not mean that you can stop hitting the bad ones.

And regardless, your handicap should reflect what you are actually scoring as opposed to what you could score if you played better. The exceptions where you look at potential should be more rare and hopefully will under the new system.

blue note

blue note wrote: »

I don't know if you're right. You might be and getting rid of the bad scores feels like it should be easier than hitting more pars, but I'm not sure if it actually is.

If someone is playing off 18, but putting in half a dozen pars every round and regular birdies, they must be having several disaster holes per round. I looked at my last round (my best round) before my break from the game and I had 10 pars and two birdies. But even on a day when I was playing that well I still had 2 scratches and a double. Recently I was level par on the front 9 and +11 on the back. Just because you are able to hit the good shots does not mean that you can stop hitting the bad ones.

And regardless, your handicap should reflect what you are actually scoring as opposed to what you could score if you played better. The exceptions where you look at potential should be more rare and hopefully will under the new system.

From using the handicap calculator links, if i shot that round under the new system I think I'd be coming in with 50 points. That's just due to the differences in ratings between tramore and corballis though. I can't see myself putting in that round too soon, but a round within a few shots of it would not be too hard to imagine.

That's a perfect example of my concern with the ratings in the new system though.

redzerdrog

As there is no golf between now and the implementation date I wonder will we get our new hcaps sooner

Seve OB

redzerdrog wrote: »

As there is no golf between now and the implementation date I wonder will we get our new hcaps sooner

from what we have seen recently from the GUI I think it is more likely we will get sight of them now at about 9pm on the 30th November

Kingswood Rover

Jeez i looked at the lockdown thread and we are back thread very scary anyway just noticed that on Masterscoreboard this week it had a line "handicap progression 20 most recent qualifying scores" its on its way . That word "handicap" we need to think about that the word is has such historically negative connotations.

GreeBo

blue note wrote: »

I don't know if you're right. You might be and getting rid of the bad scores feels like it should be easier than hitting more pars, but I'm not sure if it actually is.

If someone is playing off 18, but putting in half a dozen pars every round and regular birdies, they must be having several disaster holes per round. I looked at my last round (my best round) before my break from the game and I had 10 pars and two birdies. But even on a day when I was playing that well I still had 2 scratches and a double. Recently I was level par on the front 9 and +11 on the back. Just because you are able to hit the good shots does not mean that you can stop hitting the bad ones.

And regardless, your handicap should reflect what you are actually scoring as opposed to what you could score if you played better. The exceptions where you look at potential should be more rare and hopefully will under the new system.

If your handicap reflects how your are scoring but your scores on individual holes have huge variance then your results will too.
You'll be shooting 25 points one week and 45 the next. That's not going to be enjoyable for anyone imo.

Why should you have 36 points if you are throwing in 8s and birdies?
Having 8s and birdies is not someone playing to their ability, it's more likely someone with terrible course management in my experience.

prawnsambo

Seve OB wrote: »

from what we have seen recently from the GUI I think it is more likely we will get sight of them now at about 9pm on the 30th November

I predicted that they'd have that email out this evening at one minute to five. But the crazy bunch that they are, went and sent it out at three minutes to five. Living dangerously.

CalamariFritti

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

Jeez i looked at the lockdown thread and we are back thread very scary anyway just noticed that on Masterscoreboard this week it had a line "handicap progression 20 most recent qualifying scores" its on its way . That word "handicap" we need to think about that the word is has such historically negative connotations.

:pac:

prawnsambo

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

Jeez i looked at the lockdown thread and we are back thread very scary anyway just noticed that on Masterscoreboard this week it had a line "handicap progression 20 most recent qualifying scores" its on its way . That word "handicap" we need to think about that the word is has such historically negative connotations.

I'm afraid that's just a coincidence. The graph of your handicap has always been the 20 most recent qualifying scores. The list below that is whatever the admin sets as the number of months to display.

thewobbler

GreeBo wrote: »

If your handicap reflects how your are scoring but your scores on individual holes have huge variance then your results will too.
You'll be shooting 25 points one week and 45 the next. That's not going to be enjoyable for anyone imo.

Why should you have 36 points if you are throwing in 8s and birdies?
Having 8s and birdies is not someone playing to their ability, it's more likely someone with terrible course management in my experience.

I’m not so sure there. A normal enough golf course layout with 5 x par 3s and a couple of short par 4s provides anyone of decent length but an inconsistent swing, with 7 opportunities to set up a birdie putt, for not a tremendous amount of effort. Over the course of 3-4 rounds, a couple of those putts will drain.

That same player though on the other 11 holes - 4 x par 5s, 4 x long par 4s, 3 x medium par 4s - is looking at a bogey being a good score, for it takes two consistent strikes in a row at something approaching a full swing to get into 2-putt island.

The problem is that these holes present him with with 22-26 opportunities to send one into the next postcode. On courses with heavy forests or heavy gorses, a lost ball turns a good 5 immediately into a good 7 immediately. The 8 is never far away.

—-

You can call that poor course management. Same man could of course take a 4 iron off the tee. Then lay up with a 7 iron, and take a wedge onto the green.

But if he has inconsistent swing, that approach still doesn’t stop him from pushing it into deep trouble.

And at the end of the day if he’s playing for bogey at best on every home over 370 yards, he will end up on roughly the same handicap anyway.

macslash

GreeBo wrote: »

That would make you a severe TIDNAB!

Haha no! As PabloAndRoy said I was a little unlucky with the handicap I got originally. But I was a bit out with my calculations however. It looks like I'll be getting 2, maybe 3 shots back.

Seve OB

thewobbler wrote: »

You can call that poor course management. Same man could of course take a 4 iron off the tee. Then lay up with a 7 iron, and take a wedge onto the green.

Some say you should lay up on par 3’s

blue note

A bogey is my average score. And I sometimes play the index 1 third as a par 5 in my course and get my bogey. Ie a 6.

I think the lower handicap guys looking at the fellas who scratch a lot of holes and think that if they could tell them what shots to hit they'd eliminate most of their scratches are not actually looking and thinking. They're just assuming that if he has a few scratches in a round he must be hitting stupid shots. And that's really not the case the majority of the time.

I had 7 scratches at the weekend. That's even high by my standards. But looking at the shot that put me into trouble, on each hole it was

A wedge on the second - too long, bounced on a downslope into thick rough
Wedge pushed right on 4th and 6th, came up short and fell into a bunker. In both cases the distance was right for where I was aiming, the fatter part of the green with less danger.
Wedge on 8 - hit it thin and it went over the green. Lost ball.
8i on 15. Pulled it long and left and lost
Driver on 15. Had two fairways of landing zone and I managed to hit it ob.
Wedge on 18. Caught it fat and it dropped into a bunker.

There's no course management issues there, but it was 7 zero pointers.

I'm also not convinced that someone who has a lot of scratches is more likely to shoot 45 points. They're not easy to get off your card. If you have a swing that's leading to you hitting shots fat or thin or slicing them madly, you don't need to be taking on anything difficult to end up scratching a hole.

blue note

GreeBo wrote: »

If your handicap reflects how your are scoring but your scores on individual holes have huge variance then your results will too.
You'll be shooting 25 points one week and 45 the next. That's not going to be enjoyable for anyone imo.

Why should you have 36 points if you are throwing in 8s and birdies?
Having 8s and birdies is not someone playing to their ability, it's more likely someone with terrible course management in my experience.

You should have 36 points if that's what you scored regardless of what it's made up of. It doesn't matter if you're scrambling for bogies or three putting for them, or whether you're hitting 18 bogies or 9 doubles and 9 pars.

newport2

blue note wrote: »

I had 7 scratches at the weekend. That's even high by my standards. But looking at the shot that put me into trouble, on each hole it was

A wedge on the second - too long, bounced on a downslope into thick rough
Wedge pushed right on 4th and 6th, came up short and fell into a bunker. In both cases the distance was right for where I was aiming, the fatter part of the green with less danger.
Wedge on 8 - hit it thin and it went over the green. Lost ball.
8i on 15. Pulled it long and left and lost
Driver on 15. Had two fairways of landing zone and I managed to hit it ob.
Wedge on 18. Caught it fat and it dropped into a bunker.

There's no course management issues there, but it was 7 zero pointers.

Every hole except the 15th was down to a wedge shot. Course management might have you lay back a bit further

Joking aside, wedges are going to my focus for the lockdown, last couple of months I've been hitting 8 and 9 irons better than wedges. Need to get that sorted

blue note

newport2 wrote: »

Every hole except the 15th was down to a wedge shot. Course management might have you lay back a bit further

Joking aside, wedges are going to my focus for the lockdown, last couple of months I've been hitting 8 and 9 irons better than wedges. Need to get that sorted

It's not a fact that eluded me!

But alas on 2, had I laid up further back I'd have been landing on an uphill lie on a narrow part of the fairway with thick rough either side. 4 and 6 were from the tee, hard to avoid the wedge there. 8 was the only full wedge that caused a problem, they're usually fine. I hit a 3w from the tee to avoid needing a 3/4 wedge, but just executed the shot badly. 15 and 16 weren't wedges.

You might have a point on 18 though! The wind picked up slightly and I thought an iron could leave me too far back, but that probably wasn't the case.

The three quarter wedges are absolute killers for me. I've had a lesson on them, if I go to the range I dedicate a good portion of my practice to them. And I keep trying to hit them because they're unavoidable on the course. But they're by far the weakest part of my game.

In between all those scratches I went par, par, par, birdie, par. And that run could have been better - all 4 of those pars had a chance of dropping. And there wasn't a 3 quarter wedge on any of those holes!

blue note

Seve OB wrote: »

Some say you should lay up on par 3’s

There are times when you should! 4th hole on the Newtown 9 in tramore from the back tees is about 190m and typically into the wind. There's a tiny bit of green on the right that you don't have to carry water to get onto and some fairway before that. If you go for the heart of the green there's water short, left and bunker or terrible lie long.

I'd hit a 4i right on that hole. Some days you'll sneak onto the front of the green and have two putts for a par. Other days you'll have a decent up and down chance. And some days you'll still end up in the water, or duff a chip or something. But it's the better option when compared to a 5w with no margin for error short, left or long. I'm not sure your chances of a par are any less, but you're chances of scoring are much better.

GreeBo

thewobbler wrote: »

I’m not so sure there. A normal enough golf course layout with 5 x par 3s and a couple of short par 4s provides anyone of decent length but an inconsistent swing, with 7 opportunities to set up a birdie putt, for not a tremendous amount of effort. Over the course of 3-4 rounds, a couple of those putts will drain.

That same player though on the other 11 holes - 4 x par 5s, 4 x long par 4s, 3 x medium par 4s - is looking at a bogey being a good score, for it takes two consistent strikes in a row at something approaching a full swing to get into 2-putt island.

The problem is that these holes present him with with 22-26 opportunities to send one into the next postcode. On courses with heavy forests or heavy gorses, a lost ball turns a good 5 immediately into a good 7 immediately. The 8 is never far away.

—-

You can call that poor course management. Same man could of course take a 4 iron off the tee. Then lay up with a 7 iron, and take a wedge onto the green.

But if he has inconsistent swing, that approach still doesn’t stop him from pushing it into deep trouble.

And at the end of the day if he’s playing for bogey at best on every home over 370 yards, he will end up on roughly the same handicap anyway.

I could almost guarantee that anyone off 18 who plays for bogey on every hole will score better than the golfer off 18 who tries to par every hole. I see it everytime I play, guys who strike the ball as well if not better than I do yet are 3 times my handicap because they are trying to play scratch golf. Sure, his lowest score will probably come from the day he plays for pars, but 99% of his lower scores will come from the bogey approach.

The fundamental difference between your opinion and mine is that I don't believe the inconsistent strike guy should be hitting shots that sometimes give him a birdie putt but other times take him out of the hole.

blue note wrote: »

A bogey is my average score. And I sometimes play the index 1 third as a par 5 in my course and get my bogey. Ie a 6.

I think the lower handicap guys looking at the fellas who scratch a lot of holes and think that if they could tell them what shots to hit they'd eliminate most of their scratches are not actually looking and thinking. They're just assuming that if he has a few scratches in a round he must be hitting stupid shots. And that's really not the case the majority of the time.

I think to be honest you might be the exception and it sounds like you were unlucky a lot of the time.

I had 7 scratches at the weekend. That's even high by my standards. But looking at the shot that put me into trouble, on each hole it was

A wedge on the second - too long, bounced on a downslope into thick rough
Wedge pushed right on 4th and 6th, came up short and fell into a bunker. In both cases the distance was right for where I was aiming, the fatter part of the green with less danger.
Wedge on 8 - hit it thin and it went over the green. Lost ball.
8i on 15. Pulled it long and left and lost
Driver on 15. Had two fairways of landing zone and I managed to hit it ob.
Wedge on 18. Caught it fat and it dropped into a bunker.

There's no course management issues there, but it was 7 zero pointers.

I'm also not convinced that someone who has a lot of scratches is more likely to shoot 45 points. They're not easy to get off your card. If you have a swing that's leading to you hitting shots fat or thin or slicing them madly, you don't need to be taking on anything difficult to end up scratching a hole.

Slightly off topic, but it seems strange that missing a green (other than a lost ball) leads to a scratch?

GreeBo

blue note wrote: »

You should have 36 points if that's what you scored regardless of what it's made up of. It doesn't matter if you're scrambling for bogies or three putting for them, or whether you're hitting 18 bogies or 9 doubles and 9 pars.

Which guy would you rather play in a match?

Seve OB wrote: »

Some say you should lay up on par 3’s

Well if you keep going for it and walking off with a 5 or worse then you can keep banging your head off that wall or you can try something different.

blue note

GreeBo wrote: »

I think to be honest you might be the exception and it sounds like you were unlucky a lot of the time.



Slightly off topic, but it seems strange that missing a green (other than a lost ball) leads to a scratch?

The bad scores are too consistent to be unlucky. I think my game doesn't suit my course, but it's not luck.

2 were lost balls. 1 I found in the thick rough, but it took me two shots to get it out. I then made a solid up and down for nada. And three were bunker balls. I got a new lob wedge so decided to try it out of bunkers - I'm wondering if the bounce isn't suitable for them as I took 8 shots out of those three bunkers. And didn't even get out of one of them. So there's obviously a bunker problem too, but that's factored into my handicap. Not getting out of them is uncharacteristic of me, but they are a problem for me. For example, I'd consider not dropping a shot after going into a bunker to be getting out and taking two putts. Getting up and down from a bunker is extremely rare.

PabloAndRoy

just a side question ...

Two of my lowest 8 are not on golfnet but are on masterscoreboard...

Who should I contact?

Seve OB

blue note wrote: »

A wedge on the second - too long, bounced on a downslope into thick rough
Wedge pushed right on 4th and 6th, came up short and fell into a bunker. In both cases the distance was right for where I was aiming, the fatter part of the green with less danger.
Wedge on 8 - hit it thin and it went over the green. Lost ball.
8i on 15. Pulled it long and left and lost
Driver on 15. Had two fairways of landing zone and I managed to hit it ob.
Wedge on 18. Caught it fat and it dropped into a bunker.

There's no course management issues there, but it was 7 zero pointers.

I'm off 10 and well able to play and pull off the shots. However I feel your pain, so while I know I can hit the shots, they don't always come off. But I can tell you that the more you hit them, get lessons and practice, the repetition pays off. It's like anything, if you do it often enough it becomes second nature. But you have to make sure you are doing it right, hence my point about the lessons.

I've had LOTS of lessons over the last few years, some on course ones which focused less on the strike, but managing your way around. I'm guilty though of not doing it often enough, but I do pay more attention.

Course management is not always laying up. It's picking your miss, knowing should you play down the left or right side of the fairway. Knowing where the miss is, ie left is dead so make sure you are right etc. so many fellas think their course management is fine, but in reality it is not

From your above points, you claim to have no course management issues, but your second hole, playing a wedge that goes to long, bounces on a downslope.... downslope..... makes sure you are short not long... thats course management. wedge coming up short and going in sand, course management again, where is thr trouble, short, ok, take an extra club,

thats just a snap shot. how many other bogeys or doubles do you have that playing a little more clever could you improve on, plenty im sure

i wouldnt worry about thins and slices or whatever bad shots you are hitting, the only way you will fix that is repeating and repeating the right shot

Seve OB

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

just a side question ...

Two of my lowest 8 are not on golfnet but are on masterscoreboard...

Who should I contact?

club handicap secretary

blue note

Seve OB wrote: »

I'm off 10 and well able to play and pull off the shots. However I feel your pain, so while I know I can hit the shots, they don't always come off. But I can tell you that the more you hit them, get lessons and practice, the repetition pays off. It's like anything, if you do it often enough it becomes second nature. But you have to make sure you are doing it right, hence my point about the lessons.

I've had LOTS of lessons over the last few years, some on course ones which focused less on the strike, but managing your way around. I'm guilty though of not doing it often enough, but I do pay more attention.

Course management is not always laying up. It's picking your miss, knowing should you play down the left or right side of the fairway. Knowing where the miss is, ie left is dead so make sure you are right etc. so many fellas think their course management is fine, but in reality it is not

From your above points, you claim to have no course management issues, but your second hole, playing a wedge that goes to long, bounces on a downslope.... downslope..... makes sure you are short not long... thats course management. wedge coming up short and going in sand, course management again, where is thr trouble, short, ok, take an extra club,

thats just a snap shot. how many other bogeys or doubles do you have that playing a little more clever could you improve on, plenty im sure

i wouldnt worry about thins and slices or whatever bad shots you are hitting, the only way you will fix that is repeating and repeating the right shot

The wedge being long on 2nd was down to my difficulty controlling distance with non full wedge shots. The two that went in the bunker were pushed 10 yards to the right. Distance was good on those two.

The shot selection was right on those three shots. Execution was the problem.

Anyway, we've gone off topic so let's move on from my game!

willabur

Avoiding scratch is about course management for me. Typically when I scratch a hole at corballis which is a short, tight course with penal rough where you can easily lose a ball, scratches come about when I lose a ball in that stuff. Where you put the ball is critical to make a score, aim for the fat part of the fairway and the fat part of the green and take whatever club gives you the best chance of landing plump in the middle of that. Scratches come about when you try to get greedy or you plain just hit a bad shot and do not / can not take your medicine

Seve OB

blue note wrote: »

The wedge being long on 2nd was down to my difficulty controlling distance with non full wedge shots. The two that went in the bunker were pushed 10 yards to the right. Distance was good on those two.

The shot selection was right on those three shots. Execution was the problem.

Anyway, we've gone off topic so let's move on from my game!

agree we gone off topic, so last point. course management is also about playing the shot you can execute and control. if you have problems executing the shot, play the ones you have a better chance of executing/controlling.