Attitude towards Free Travel Card Users

Gael23

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Would it depend on the amount earned? I knew a chap in a wheelchair that wasn't allowed one because of his earnings.

Yes you can still get a reduced payment and work part time. I usd to know what three limit was but I’ve forgotten. I think it’s about €400 a week before tax. I know I was €3 over it when I started work

Mrs OBumble

Gatling wrote: »

It should be a simple case of if your no longer entitled to a welfare payment secondary benefits should be also withdrawn ,
But that would mean someone in government making a real decision ,

Nope that would not be a good thing. The idea is to encourage disadvantaged people into the workforce gently not have a sudden cutoff.

fritzelly

The amount earned is to do with how your payment is reduced over time. Nothing else once working full time
But someone who did this wouldn't surprise me to keep doing what he is doing, regardless the motivation. It's still fraud

Gael23

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Nope that would not be a good thing. The idea is to encourage disadvantaged people into the workforce gently not have a sudden cutoff.

Agree with this, I lost my payment and my FTP straight away, even before I actually got my first pay Cheque. That was hard enough to deal with and if I lost my medical card too I would seriously think twice about working. I like my job and I want to work but it would be impossible to justify without that given my health problems

NinetyTwoTeam

Gatling wrote: »

It should be a simple case of if your no longer entitled to a welfare payment secondary benefits should be also withdrawn ,
But that would mean someone in government making a real decision ,

Spoken like someone who clearly doesn't understand how difficult it can be for people to transition from benefits to the workforce. When you're just scraping by on the minimum, you wont have savings so being cut off suddenly from everything will put up an obstacle for going back to work, especially considering how many places pay monthly now, and the fact that returning to work will incur costs for work clothing, commuting, possibly moving house.

This scheme is actually much better value for money than many others.

fritzelly

You can get help from the SWO til you get paid, not sure of the repayment scheme
People do it every day of the week

bebeman

Purchase a ticket if you dont want people looking down on you using a FTP.
What price does a person put on their dignity, for some not worth the price of a bus ticket., for others its not for sale

Emme

Nomis21 wrote: »

At the moment if you are receiving a disability payment and start work you can keep the pass for three years but this is going up to 5 years later this year.

This encourages people with a disability to join the workforce and I think that is a good thing.

Take into account the value of a free travel pass on top of whatever the person is earning and it could be worth an extra €3K a year depending on the length of the commute. People not receiving disability payments have to EARN the money to pay for their travel passes, even if they do get the benefit of Taxsaver. To add insult to injury, the lower paid on lower rates of tax have to pay more towards their Taxsaver ticket.

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

Spoken like someone who clearly doesn't understand how difficult it can be for people to transition from benefits to the workforce. When you're just scraping by on the minimum, you wont have savings so being cut off suddenly from everything will put up an obstacle for going back to work, especially considering how many places pay monthly now, and the fact that returning to work will incur costs for work clothing, commuting, possibly moving house.

This scheme is actually much better value for money than many others.

There are people who are working but are still scraping by on the minimum. I will be lambasted for this but there are people who work the benefits system in such a way that they are better off not working than working. One of the reasons it is so difficult for some people to transition from benefits to the workforce is that the benefits system is so generous that they need to earn a lot more than is offered in low-paid jobs to have the equivalent of what they can get on benefits.

n!ghtmancometh

5 years is a bit much. If someone transitioned from da to working and is still in that employment after a year (or two max) then I think it's fair enough to assume that they don't need the benefit of free travel anymore.

I pay over a thousand a year for a bus tax saver on my low wages and it does rankle that someone could be in a far higher paying job than me and still be availing of free travel years after returning to the workforce.

As for OP, I think you're overthinking things, but if it is getting under your skin that much just pay for your travel.

Xterminator

Hi Op

i think the majority of the people employed in transport industry are concerned about whether you have a valid card and its your card. IE detecting fraudulent use.I think the majority of passengers are concerned about getting home, how their day is going etc.

IE you are not their primary concern, and most don't even notice and the ones who do dont care much.

You are projecting your concerns onto others. Possibly you have had a couple of bad experiences that colour your thinking.

Nomis21

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I know, that's my point. Some think it's a one card covers all instead of what's stated on the card. You also have the few that insists that they don't need to get a train ticket for that perticular journey when advised by station staff that they do. The line usually mentioned is "I have a pass, i don't need a ticket".

Emme wrote: »

Take into account the value of a free travel pass on top of whatever the person is earning and it could be worth an extra €3K a year depending on the length of the commute. People not receiving disability payments have to EARN the money to pay for their travel passes, even if they do get the benefit of Taxsaver. To add insult to injury, the lower paid on lower rates of tax have to pay more towards their Taxsaver ticket.



There are people who are working but are still scraping by on the minimum. I will be lambasted for this but there are people who work the benefits system in such a way that they are better off not working than working. One of the reasons it is so difficult for some people to transition from benefits to the workforce is that the benefits system is so generous that they need to earn a lot more than is offered in low-paid jobs to have the equivalent of what they can get on benefits.

Well yes, very true, it usually does not pay to come off benefits, especially disability allowance, but that is the whole point of keeping FTP, Medical Card and HAP payments, so as to make it more worthwhile to get back into work. Isn't it?

bebeman

Xterminator wrote: »

Hi Op

I think the majority of passengers are concerned about getting home, how their day is going etc.

.

"i cant get a seat on a bus going home from a hard day work , full of FTP holders, can they not travel outside of peak and let working people get home, im paying top dollar for my ticket and subsidizing these free loaders."
Rough approximation of what paying passengers are thinking based of hundred of them standing beside the drivers cab and voicing their thoughts.
You dont have to like it, but this is the truth.

Emme

Nomis21 wrote: »

Well yes, very true, it usually does not pay to come off benefits, especially disability allowance, but that is the whole point of keeping FTP, Medical Card and HAP payments, so as to make it more worthwhile to get back into work. Isn't it?

If you're genuinely disabled you're not able to work so it shouldn't be an issue.

As for benefits while a person goes back to work, why should the taxpayer subsidise stingy employers paying the minimum wage? Just as we're subsidising multinationals who get away with paying hardly any tax but that's another topic.

bebeman wrote: »

"i cant get a seat on a bus going home from a hard day work , full of FTP holders, can they not travel outside of peak and let working people get home, im paying top dollar for my ticket and subsidizing these free loaders."
Rough approximation of what paying passengers are thinking based of hundred of them standing beside the drivers cab and voicing their thoughts.
You dont have to like it, but this is the truth.

That is exactly what some of them are thinking and they have a right to think it. If you have a long commute and work full time in a pressurised job it's not unreasonable to expect a seat on your journey to and from work. Some FTP holders are pensioners and entitled to it 100% but they do tend to travel at peak times. The problem is capacity, not the pensioners. At least they get up early in the morning and dress themselves properly unlike others who think pyjamas are appropriate daywear.

cython

Emme wrote: »

If you're genuinely disabled you're not able to work so it shouldn't be an issue.

That's a very bold and frankly offensive claim to make! Is someone in a wheelchair not "genuinely disabled"? A good friend of mine was rendered paraplegic in the last couple of years and would by pretty much all measures be considered disabled, unfortunately. However, he is still well capable of working at certain jobs (indeed he is returning to work shortly) - there would be next to nothing physically stopping him from doing my job, for example, given that the majority of my time is spent in front of a computer seated. Now perhaps you mean specifically someone who is on disability allowance, rather than someone who is disabled, but if so it's an important distinction you need to make.

Emme wrote: »

As for benefits while a person goes back to work, why should the taxpayer subsidise stingy employers paying the minimum wage? Just as we're subsidising multinationals who get away with paying hardly any tax but that's another topic.

Would you rather they pay the entirety of the person's cost of living for them to sit idly by, in addition to said benefits?

Emme wrote: »

That is exactly what some of them are thinking and they have a right to think it. If you have a long commute and work full time in a pressurised job it's not unreasonable to expect a seat on your journey to and from work. Some FTP holders are pensioners and entitled to it 100% but they do tend to travel at peak times. The problem is capacity, not the pensioners. At least they get up early in the morning and dress themselves properly unlike others who think pyjamas are appropriate daywear.

If they are thinking that, then they are completely overlooking the realities and logistics of their ticket - how many such ticketholders would be willing to restrict themselves to a single service each way per day, and if you miss that then your ticket is not valid, or at least does not afford you a seat? This is the reality of the online bookings with a seat reservation. The alternative is to reserve each of them a seat on all services on the line, which is obviously completely infeasible. You can't have it every way, I'm afraid.

Not to mention, none of this considers walk up fares which are likely the most expensive ones going, and are guaranteed precisely nothing, so the argument of how much you pay for your ticket falls flat on its face.

PeterParker957

bebeman wrote: »

"i cant get a seat on a bus going home from a hard day work , full of FTP holders, can they not travel outside of peak and let working people get home, im paying top dollar for my ticket and subsidizing these free loaders."
Rough approximation of what paying passengers are thinking based of hundred of them standing beside the drivers cab and voicing their thoughts.
You dont have to like it, but this is the truth.

I do hate to be the bearer of bad news but we can think what we like.

Just like last night when I happily daydreamed of the screaming brat across the aisle being sucked out the window by a T-rex and eaten slowly.

Emme

cython wrote: »

That's a very bold and frankly offensive claim to make! Is someone in a wheelchair not "genuinely disabled"? A good friend of mine was rendered paraplegic in the last couple of years and would by pretty much all measures be considered disabled, unfortunately. However, he is still well capable of working at certain jobs (indeed he is returning to work shortly) - there would be next to nothing physically stopping him from doing my job, for example, given that the majority of my time is spent in front of a computer seated. Now perhaps you mean specifically someone who is on disability allowance, rather than someone who is disabled, but if so it's an important distinction you need to make.

I mean somebody on disability allowance who may not be in a wheelchair or obviously incapacitated in any way. However some people can be incapacitated by chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia and other illnesses which are not immediately apparent.

A wheelchair user or somebody with limited mobility is genuinely disabled and entitled to all they get. However many of these people are very courageous and their determination to live a normal and productive life would put many able bodied people to shame.

magicbastarder

Emme wrote: »

If you have a long commute and work full time in a pressurised job it's not unreasonable to expect a seat on your journey to and from work.

expect? what has being a full time worker or being in a pressurised job got to do with 'expecting' a seat on public transport, in any way, shape or form?

it's called *public* transport for a reason. expecting a hierarchy on it based on perceived importance is beyond absurd.

Emme

PeterParker957 wrote: »

I do hate to be the bearer of bad news but we can think what we like.

Just like last night when I happily daydreamed of the screaming brat across the aisle being sucked out the window by a T-rex and eaten slowly.

Peter, we are only workers, aka serfs. Our purpose is to work ourselves to the bone and give away as much of our salary as possible in tax. We are not allowed to complain about our working or commuting conditions. Indeed we should happily give up our seats to those who don't need to work.

Hilly Bill

Emme wrote: »

Peter, we are only workers, aka serfs. Our purpose is to work ourselves to the bone and give away as much of our salary as possible in tax. We are not allowed to complain about our working or commuting conditions. Indeed we should happily give up our seats to those who don't need to work.

Now that's just strange

Hilly Bill

magicbastarder wrote: »

expect? what has being a full time worker or being in a pressurised job got to do with 'expecting' a seat on public transport, in any way, shape or form?

it's called *public* transport for a reason. expecting a hierarchy on it based on perceived importance is beyond absurd.

They will be looking for segregation from the unemployed next

magicbastarder

btw, to take the london underground as a low hanging example. the total carrying capacity of the trains is typically two to three times their seated capacity. they would need to triple their frequency at busy times to give everyone a seat (without allowing for subsequent increased passenger numbers). many forms of public transport assume a significant number of passengers will be standing.

https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2016/08/05/london-tube-train-capacities/

Emme

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They will be looking for segregation from the unemployed next

Hardly. An unemployed person might be taking the train to a job interview or a regular commuter might board the train with an unemployed friend or relative once in a while.

Emme

magicbastarder wrote: »

btw, to take the london underground as a low hanging example. the total carrying capacity of the trains is typically two to three times their seated capacity. they would need to triple their frequency at busy times to give everyone a seat (without allowing for subsequent increased passenger numbers). many forms of public transport assume a significant number of passengers will be standing.

https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2016/08/05/london-tube-train-capacities/

I don't know how long the average journey is on the London underground but there are people who travel an hour or more each way for work on Irish rail. Irish Rail did seem to operate that model for a while but there were problems - the food cart couldn't get up and down the train without crushing a few commuters and the train had to make frequent stops because so many people were fainting or getting sick.

AlekSmart

Emme wrote: »

I mean somebody on disability allowance who may not be in a wheelchair or obviously incapacitated in any way. However some people can be incapacitated by chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia and other illnesses which are not immediately apparent.

A wheelchair user or somebody with limited mobility is genuinely disabled and entitled to all they get. However many of these people are very courageous and their determination to live a normal and productive life would put many able bodied people to shame.

The entire scope of the Disbability allowance scheme is now to come under review,albeit belatedly.

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/probe-after-unexplained-surge-in-people-claiming-disability-allowance-36618083.html

THE Government is probing an "unexplained" surge in people getting disability allowance in the past decade.

In an exclusive piece in today’s Irish Independent, Charlie Weston writes that in the past 10 years there has been a jump of more than 42,000 getting the payments.

As it stands, there are 126,000 in receipt of the disability allowance - a 50pc rise from 10 years ago.

Meanwhile, the cost of the allowance has leapt to €1.3bn.

It will be an interesting few months,particularly if an election is in the wind.

_Dara_

I'm a free travel card holder as I have terminal cancer. You would not know I have it though as I'm on hormone therapy so I have a full head of hair. I have to admit, I do try to hide my card when from other passengers when I need to produce it as I don't want to receive any judgemental looks. I'm 34 and at the moment, I'm doing pretty well. But work will never be an option for me again because I simply don't have the stamina and strength and my lower spine is damaged and gets sore and tired after only a short while standing. Also, who wants to hire a terminal cancer patient whose health can deteriorate fast at any time? Let's be honest, I'd be bottom of any potential employer's list, understandably enough.

My outward appearance makes me seem completely healthy if a tad overweight and I just know that people will be wondering am I a layabout scammer if they see my card. Maybe that's not the case but I totally understand the OP's predicament. And I have certainly received doubting looks from railway station staff when I present my card. Plenty of once-overs from them too.

magicbastarder

AlekSmart wrote: »

The entire scope of the Disbability allowance scheme is now to come under review,albeit belatedly.

how did they reach the conclusion that it costs €1.3bn? revenue forgone, had all the holders paid for it? colour me sceptical, but i suspect that figure has very little relation with the truth.

strandroad

magicbastarder wrote: »

how did they reach the conclusion that it costs €1.3bn? revenue forgone, had all the holders paid for it? colour me sceptical, but i suspect that figure has very little relation with the truth.

It's the cost of entire disability allowance scheme, not free travel.

magicbastarder

how do they calculate it?

Gatling

magicbastarder wrote: »

how do they calculate it?

Likely the cost of weekly benefits along with the costs of secondary benefits ,ftp , medical cards ,fuel and living alone allowences and winter clothing exceptional needs ,rents

AlekSmart

magicbastarder wrote: »

how did they reach the conclusion that it costs €1.3bn? revenue forgone, had all the holders paid for it? colour me sceptical, but i suspect that figure has very little relation with the truth.

Last figure available for the FTS cost is €77,000,000 (2016).

Mr Varadakar mentioned €80,000,000 in a speech someplace as the 2017 cost.