Saturday 17/2

NaiveMelodies

RivetingRoger wrote: »

How will cue card eventually be remembered? Is he up there with the Big Bucks Denman level ie just under Kauto Sprinter etc

For me, Cue Cards story is one that will be a remembered as 'Cue Card & connections'. They could have stuck to the Ryanair route and won at least another couple, but they convinced themselves their horse could become a top class 3 miler. Mullins and Elliott would never forego a Cheltenham winner in the manner Tizzard and the Bishops did. That's not a slight on the lads but it was an admirable stance to take for a smaller yard.
There were plenty of doubters, myself included, but they stuck at it and got their just rewards with a brilliant King George win. A shame he never stayed up in a GC as a second behind Don Cossack would have looked great on the CV.
In terms of ability I don't think Cue Card had the consistency to be compared to Denman or Big Bucks but on his best days he could be.

Gringo180

handsfree2 wrote: »

All the horses name checked achieved greatness in their own way.

Cue Card is a good horse and he'll be remembered in the same breath as Nichols caynon and UDS.

I dont think he was as good as the horses named above (Best Mate 3 Gold Cups insanely never mentioned) but you done the horse a massive disservice saying he only won a Ryanair and a bumper @Cheltenham. He was a top class chaser on his day, And if he wasnt such a keen runner he probably would of won more of the prestigious races. A horse of a lifetime I hope they retire him because he is past his best even tho it was a joy to watch him enjoying it again yesterday.

dk6dk6

RivetingRoger wrote: »

How will cue card eventually be remembered? Is he up there with the Big Bucks Denman level ie just under Kauto Sprinter etc

Why is Denman below Kauto level when they met 4 times and Denman finished ahead of him 3 out of the 4 and the time Kauto beat him Denman was struggling with injuries throughout the season.

And Cue Card was nowhere near as good as the above mentioned

Gringo180

dk6dk6 wrote: »

Why is Denman below Kauto level when they met 4 times and Denman finished ahead of him 3 out of the 4 and the time Kauto beat him Denman was struggling with injuries throughout the season.

And Cue Card was nowhere near as good as the above mentioned

I think Cue Cards King George win and performance puts him right up there with Kauto. He had a future Gold Cup winner beaten in Don Cossack and beat the great Vautour. Denman was on another level altogether. He was just relentless.

Panrich

Gringo180 wrote: »

I think Cue Cards King George win and performance puts him right up there with Kauto.

Just another 4 King George’s to be right up there with Kauto. He could add a Tingle Creek over 2 miles and a couple of Gold Cups over 3m 2f to reinforce the comparison.

Lloyderz

posturingpat wrote: »

Red hot filly peppers be a decent animal whenever a real jockey rides.

Absolutely. Needs to go! Redhotfillypeppers cost 200k. Made for chasing. Hopefully next year when she jumps a fence the cowboy will be off!


Ifyoucatchmenow was bought for 100k also. He is buying alot of P2P mares to breed from them down the line. Makes no sense if they keep loosing with himself on board and their value goes down....

madmoose

On Cue Card the longvevity with him in itself with his achievements is special. Won the C Bumper as a 4 year old and yesterday showed aged 12 can still put up with the younger legs even though past his best. If he had won a GC then he would have been spoken up there properly with Denman and co.

Gringo180

Panrich wrote: »

Just another 4 King George’s to be right up there with Kauto. He could add a Tingle Creek over 2 miles and a couple of Gold Cups over 3m 2f to reinforce the comparison.

Im talking about the performance on that day is up there with the very best.

handsfree2

Gringo180 wrote: »

Im talking about the performance on that day is up there with the very best.

I'm probably talking about of my pocket but I reckon Don Cossack would have won that KG had he not tripped over the second last.

I like Cue Card but he's a good horse but he's not a great or nearly a great. He averaged just over one grade 1 per year during his career.

akelly02

dk6dk6 wrote: »

Why is Denman below Kauto level when they met 4 times and Denman finished ahead of him 3 out of the 4 and the time Kauto beat him Denman was struggling with injuries throughout the season.

And Cue Card was nowhere near as good as the above mentioned

Sorry to but in ,but denman was a better operator than kauto at cheltenham.

however kauto star was the better racehorse end of story.
Denman has a grand total of 3 grade 1s over fences .
Kauto just has the 16.

Kauto done it on any track, any trip , any ground

Denman couldn’t even run around right handed courses, anytime he did he was lapped.

Not saying denman wasn’t a great chaser as he was, but beating handicappers around Newbury isn’t the same as breaking records in King George’s, betfair chases and gold cups

dk6dk6

akelly02 wrote: »

Sorry to but in ,but denman was a better operator than kauto at cheltenham.

however kauto star was the better racehorse end of story.
Denman has a grand total of 3 grade 1s over fences .
Kauto just has the 16.

Kauto done it on any track, any trip , any ground

Denman couldn’t even run around right handed courses, anytime he did he was lapped.

Not saying denman wasn’t a great chaser as he was, but beating handicappers around Newbury isn’t the same as breaking records in King George’s, betfair chases and gold cups

Without injuries I'm convinced Denman would have won more gold cups, he wasn't the same horse after suffering his irregular heartbeat.

And it wasn't Denmans fault how Paul Nichols campaigned him, actually there was a serious bias towards Kauto from both Nicholls and Ruby which made it all the sweeter when Denman destroyed Kauto in the big match up.

And your seriously underestimating Denmans weight carrying Hennessy performances, they where an absolute joy to watch.

Dress it up how you want but Denman still beat Kauto 3 times in 4 clashes.

akelly02

dk6dk6 wrote: »

Without injuries I'm convinced Denman would have won more gold cups, he wasn't the same horse after suffering his irregular heartbeat.

And it wasn't Denmans fault how Paul Nichols campaigned him, actually there was a serious bias towards Kauto from both Nicholls and Ruby which made it all the sweeter when Denman destroyed Kauto in the big match up.

And your seriously underestimating Denmans weight carrying Hennessy performances, they where an absolute joy to watch.

Dress it up how you want but Denman still beat Kauto 3 times in 4 clashes.

Dress up the ratings aswell shall we 192 kauto hit after his 4th king George

Denman got to 184 if I remember correctly.

Grade 1 form beats handicap form everyday of the week .

Again denman beaten by the likes Madison du Berlais around aintree, kauto beat him at kempton every year by the length of the straight

WickIow Brave

handsfree2 wrote: »

I'm probably talking about of my pocket but I reckon Don Cossack would have won that KG had he not tripped over the second last.

He almost certainly would have won.

yaboya1

akelly02 wrote: »

Dress up the ratings aswell shall we 192 kauto hit after his 4th king George

Denman got to 184 if I remember correctly.

Grade 1 form beats handicap form everyday of the week .

Again denman beaten by the likes Madison du Berlais around aintree, kauto beat him at kempton every year by the length of the straight

Kauto definitely achieved more, but as has been mentioned, Denman was not given the same opportunities to pick up as many Grade, 1's due to the stable's bias towards the Smith horse.

Denman never ran in the Betfair Chase for example, a race he'd have taken a huge amount of beating in. That race was responsible for four of Kauto's Grade 1's.

Using his Aintree defeats as a barometer is a poor argument. Both times he came into the Aintree race off the back of a huge Gold Cup run. Kauto himself was beaten in the same race by Our Vic when doing the same, as were many others who won/placed in Gold Cups.

He beat Madison Du Berlais the length of the straight in his first Hennessy win conceding him a stone. That's a more accurate comparison of his real ability.

On the form book and ratings Kauto is the better racehorse no doubt, but Denman was a lot closer (if not better) than those ratings suggest.

dk6dk6

akelly02 wrote: »

Dress up the ratings aswell shall we 192 kauto hit after his 4th king George

Denman got to 184 if I remember correctly.

Grade 1 form beats handicap form everyday of the week .

Again denman beaten by the likes Madison du Berlais around aintree, kauto beat him at kempton every year by the length of the straight

I understand and respect your points and after all all we can do is offer our opinions on the matter and for me personally I thought at their peaks Denman was the better horse.

And in my opinion both where at their peak in that 2008 Gold Cup and Denman destroyed him.

Gringo180

dk6dk6 wrote: »

I understand and respect your points and after all all we can do is offer our opinions on the matter and for me personally I thought at their peaks Denman was the better horse.

And in my opinion both where at their peak in that 2008 Gold Cup and Denman destroyed him.

Denmans Hennessy win carrying 11stone12lbs was one of the greatest performances ive ever seen.

dk6dk6

Gringo180 wrote: »

Denmans Hennessy win carrying 11stone12lbs was one of the greatest performances ive ever seen.

Totally agree.

yaboya1

Gringo180 wrote: »

Denmans Hennessy win carrying 11stone12lbs was one of the greatest performances ive ever seen.

x2

posturingpat

I'm in the Kauto camp. Far better animal as far as i'm concerned, Denman was very good but a bit of a bully against inferiors and needed a specific set of circumstances whereas Kauto had a variety of trips, tracks, styles of running and kept producing year after year. I adored him

WickIow Brave

Loved them both. Two heroes. We need horses like them in the game. And I think we might see some next month. Here's hoping.

akelly02

WickIow Brave wrote: »

Loved them both. Two heroes. We need horses like them in the game. And I think we might see some next month. Here's hoping.

id love to see douvan come back to his best and blow altior away

BumperD

posturingpat wrote: »

Red hot filly peppers be a decent animal whenever a real jockey rides.

Won today with same jockey on board ......just saying.

posturingpat

BumperD wrote: »

Won today with same jockey on board ......just saying.

Was going to post earlier. Gave it a clever ride too. Still a dreadful jockey and if he's ever involved in a finish it'd want to be a hell of a gutsy horse.

BumperD

I guess it’s just a hobby for him but all the same a great thrill like I Connell did. Rare in a sport you can do that , it’s like me lining out for a premiership team just never going to happen with all the money in the world. Sheik does the same on the flat.

Shemale

akelly02 wrote: »

Dress up the ratings aswell shall we 192 kauto hit after his 4th king George

Denman got to 184 if I remember correctly.

Grade 1 form beats handicap form everyday of the week .

Again denman beaten by the likes Madison du Berlais around aintree, kauto beat him at kempton every year by the length of the straight

Dress up the results shall we, you mean the race where Denman fell and MDB won it?

Kauto always had the much easier campaign, he ran in two handicaps and was beaten in both.

Much and all as Denman wasn't as good going right, Kauto wasn't as good going left.

If the King George was still a handicap Kauto would not have got near 192, in the same way if Denman put in some of his Hennessy performances off levels he would have been rated much higher.

Shemale

posturingpat wrote: »

I'm in the Kauto camp. Far better animal as far as i'm concerned, Denman was very good but a bit of a bully against inferiors and needed a specific set of circumstances whereas Kauto had a variety of trips, tracks, styles of running and kept producing year after year. I adored him

A bully who gave inferiors a chance, Kauto raced them off levels

Denman would have mullered the fields in the Lexus but always got lashed into the Hennessy. Kauto ran two handicaps and lost both.

posturingpat

Shemale wrote: »

A bully who gave inferiors a chance, Kauto raced them off levels

Denman would have mullered the fields in the Lexus but always got lashed into the Hennessy. Kauto ran two handicaps and lost both.

Track and trip's that didn't show him at his optimum yet it was 1-1 regarding winning the Gold cup, Denman might have finished better placed in the other uns but he didn't win under his ideal conditions. If Denman tried race Kauto in a King George poor Denman would've been embarassed no doubt.
Kauto different class.
I really can't get my head around the beating handicappers form being somehow more impressive than beating grade 1 horses off levels. I'll go back to the bullying of inferior caliber of animal that Denman did on numerous occasions and the consistent year after year beating of Grade 1 animals off levels in a variety of conditions of the great Kauto star. There really is no competition as far as i'm concerned.
I can only guess people somehow warmed to the fact an inferior animal put all on the line and his guts, heart and balls got him so far, which whilst admirable doesn't change the fact Kauto was the superior animal.

akelly02

Shemale wrote: »

Dress up the results shall we, you mean the race where Denman fell and MDB won it?

Kauto always had the much easier campaign, he ran in two handicaps and was beaten in both.

Much and all as Denman wasn't as good going right, Kauto wasn't as good going left.

If the King George was still a handicap Kauto would not have got near 192, in the same way if Denman put in some of his Hennessy performances off levels he would have been rated much higher.

Nicholls and Walsh are on record stating he was better going left handed as he jumped slightly left at times

And just the 4 betfairs and 2 gold cups going left handed so don’t think it bothered him

If denman ran in a king George he would have been lapped

akelly02

Shemale wrote: »

A bully who gave inferiors a chance, Kauto raced them off levels

Denman would have mullered the fields in the Lexus but always got lashed into the Hennessy. Kauto ran two handicaps and lost both.

And on the handicap point, you are wrong .

Gringo180

When Madison Du Berlais beat Denman it was after been out for over a year and he was coming back after that heart problem. He was never the same horse. He won 1 chase in 10 starts after coming back, that says it all. But when both Denman and Kauto were at there peak it was the Tank who came out on top in the most prestigous race of the year.