Irish Language Act in the North: Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal?

jimd2

Probably not a popular opinion as most I speak to are fully in favour of Sinn Fein's strategy ref the Irish Language Act in the North.

However I think that they have possibly scored a major own goal in insisting on the imposing of the Irish Language Act. I think they have handed the DUP a Get Out Of Jail ard with regards to Devoltion and, allied to not taking their Westminister seats have allowed the sitution develop where the British government will not act to impose their will on the DUP.

So the DUP seem to be getting what they wanted - a return to direct rule from London and, linked in to Brexit this must be against the overall nationalist.

Regarding the Irish Language Act, in my opinion a lot of the stuff s bells and whistles such as signage and will do very little to really increase the use of Irish in the North. I think Sinn Fein thought they were in a stronger position than they were and thought this would be easier to get than it was.

However I hink the price they look to be payin is too much but they have gone too far and cannot back down now especially with a new leader. So major wn goal from Adams and co..

backspin.

The numbers at the min allow the DUP to disregard/disrespect Sinn Fein without any repercussions. I don't think Sinn Fein are willing to be patsy's anymore simply propping up a system that sees nationalists become ever more comfortable in the UK. It doesn't suit their aims.

FrancieBrady

jimd2 wrote: »

Probably not a popular opinion as most I speak to are fully in favour of Sinn Fein's strategy ref the Irish Language Act in the North.

However I think that they have possibly scored a major own goal in insisting on the imposing of the Irish Language Act. I think they have handed the DUP a Get Out Of Jail ard with regards to Devoltion and, allied to not taking their Westminister seats have allowed the sitution develop where the British government will not act to impose their will on the DUP.

So the DUP seem to be getting what they wanted - a return to direct rule from London and, linked in to Brexit this must be against the overall nationalist.

Regarding the Irish Language Act, in my opinion a lot of the stuff s bells and whistles such as signage and will do very little to really increase the use of Irish in the North. I think Sinn Fein thought they were in a stronger position than they were and thought this would be easier to get than it was.

However I hink the price they look to be payin is too much but they have gone too far and cannot back down now especially with a new leader. So major wn goal from Adams and co..

What price are they paying? You are a bit vague on what it is.
Direct Rule is the last thing Arlene would want, she is effectively a figurehead in her own party. No job, just a title. (She tried to get a deal done if most journalists are to be believed and you recognise the real reason Varadkar and May hightailed it to Belfast)

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What price are they paying? You are a bit vague on what it is.
Direct Rule is the last thing Arlene would want, she is effectively a figurehead in her own party. No job, just a title. (She tried to get a deal done if most journalists are to be believed and you recognise the real reason Varadkar and May hightailed it to Belfast)

Surprising that the defence of Sinn Fein took the form of implying that Sinn Fein pulled the plug on the deal that Arlene really wanted.

At the end of the day, Sinn Fein are outside Stormont, outside Westminister and sidelined in Dublin. For the allegedly largest party on this island, that speaks of a certain impotence in gaining power.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Surprising that the defence of Sinn Fein took the form of implying that Sinn Fein pulled the plug on the deal that Arlene really wanted.

At the end of the day, Sinn Fein are outside Stormont, outside Westminister and sidelined in Dublin. For the allegedly largest party on this island, that speaks of a certain impotence in gaining power.

Arlene pulled the plug because she is not in control of the party. Twice it has happened now.
Everyone is outside Stormont btw. It is debatable if the DUP have gotten anything as a result of the bung to keep the Tories in power. All eyes are on their inability to deliver equality. That is not a good image to have.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Arlene pulled the plug because she is not in control of the party. Twice it has happened now.
Everyone is outside Stormont btw. It is debatable if the DUP have gotten anything as a result of the bung to keep the Tories in power. All eyes are on their inability to deliver equality. That is not a good image to have.

I don't think same-sex marriage is as big an issue in the North as you think so the DUP should really have some sense and concede on this. They have already signalled their willingness to consider a Minority Languages Act, and it is Sinn Fein who are dragging their heels on that one.

Sooner or later, the electorate will consider it a plague on all their houses. I am fairly comfortable with the current stalemate as it exposes to all in Northern Ireland the futility of voting for either of the two sectarian parties. Hopefully, this drags on for a few more months and in a new election, the likes of the SDLP, Alliance, UUP, Greens etc. and other more mainstream parties make gains in the election.

Chips Lovell

The current political situation means that it's going to be very hard to get a deal across the line. The DUP has very little interest in forming an executive because direct rule suits them as long as they hold the balance of power in Westminster.

The entire row meanwhile is typical petty Northern Ireland politics. The region is facing into one of the biggest economic upheavals it'll ever experience (Brexit) but what's the core sticking point? A language almost nobody speaks.

I wouldn't expect anything less of them.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't think same-sex marriage is as big an issue in the North as you think so the DUP should really have some sense and concede on this. They have already signalled their willingness to consider a Minority Languages Act, and it is Sinn Fein who are dragging their heels on that one.

Sooner or later, the electorate will consider it a plague on all their houses. I am fairly comfortable with the current stalemate as it exposes to all in Northern Ireland the futility of voting for either of the two sectarian parties. Hopefully, this drags on for a few more months and in a new election, the likes of the SDLP, Alliance, UUP, Greens etc. and other more mainstream parties make gains in the election.

Your ability to ignore that the majority of other parties you mention also want the equal society being fought for here.

It would be wholly irresponsible to go back into an executive that will collapse again without this being sorted.
What you do not realise is that the electorate have lived with this suprematist denial of their rights and foot dragging since the GFA.
Your, 'Appease the Unionists' at all costs stance would therefore find no traction, and rightly so imo.

doolox

This would be a disaster for the North in that a large minority there do not have any Irish and have no intention of learning it in the future. Many public servants would be fired if compulsory Irish was brought into the North. Many teachers would be unable to continue to work if similar requirements were brought in like here in the South.

Given the favourable demographics in that the Nationalists are outpacing the growth in Unionist population it is only a matter of time before a nationalist majority tries to impose Irish on the whole population of NI, lets hope the do not alienate the Anglophone majority as what happened with compulsory Irish in the South, with most people speaking English, some people despising Irish and only doing the bare minimum to get by and others treating it as a National Joke where reality is completely divorced from sentimental aspiration.

What is the situation in Scotland? Wales? Do non Gaelic or Welsh speakers be left at a job seeking disadvantage if they do not have the necessary level of second language competence deemed necessary for certain jobs?? Does it have a big impact on monoglot English speakers in those countries??

FrancieBrady

doolox wrote: »

This would be a disaster for the North in that a large minority there do not have any Irish and have no intention of learning it in the future. Many public servants would be fired if compulsory Irish was brought into the North. Many teachers would be unable to continue to work if similar requirements were brought in like here in the South.

Given the favourable demographics in that the Nationalists are outpacing the growth in Unionist population it is only a matter of time before a nationalist majority tries to impose Irish on the whole population of NI, lets hope the do not alienate the Anglophone majority as what happened with compulsory Irish in the South, with most people speaking English, some people despising Irish and only doing the bare minimum to get by and others treating it as a National Joke where reality is completely divorced from sentimental aspiration.

What is the situation in Scotland? Wales? Do non Gaelic or Welsh speakers be left at a job seeking disadvantage if they do not have the necessary level of second language competence deemed necessary for certain jobs?? Does it have a big impact on monoglot English speakers in those countries??

There is no proposal to have 'compulsory Irish' anywhere in northern Ireland.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your ability to ignore that the majority of other parties you mention also want the equal society being fought for here.

It would be wholly irresponsible to go back into an executive that will collapse again without this being sorted.
What you do not realise is that the electorate have lived with this suprematist denial of their rights and foot dragging since the GFA.
Your, 'Appease the Unionists' at all costs stance would therefore find no traction, and rightly so imo.

I don't believe in "appease the unionists at all costs stance".

I just don't think an Irish Languages Act instead of a Minority Languages Act is so big a deal as to prevent the formation of a government in the North. It is really petty silly politics on the part of Sinn Fein on that issue.

On the issue of same-sex marriage, I believe that it is petty silly politics on the part of the DUP to prevent an open vote on that question.

They are both equally to blame for putting relatively minor issues ahead of the well-being of all the people of Northern Ireland, and I don't think that either of them really hold strong beliefs on either issue, they are just doing it to spite the other or to get one-up. It is really quite sickening to see the behaviour of both sides and I am absolutely fed up listening to one side coming on here all the time and trying to paint itself whiter than white when there are as many bigots and sectarian idiots on both sides.

seamus

Sinn Fein to their credit have realised since the GFA that playing the long game works for them. When you get to enact your own proposals, you get burned.

When you get to put forward proposals that a government will inevitably shoot down, you suffer no consequences and gain some additional power in being able to say, "I told you so".

This is just part of the long game. They know the DUP will resist an Irish Language act. And they know it's really, really petty. But that's the point. The DUP are digging their heels in over something incredibly inconsequential, while Sinn Fein have basically agreed to everything else. The DUP come out of this farce looking ridiculous, so the next time there's a Stormont election, where that's one year or five years from now, SF get to say, "We're ready, we're open, we want to lead", while the DUP are still hand-wringing and saying, "We'll just have to see what comes up in the negotiations".

I'd say if you took a straw poll in NI right now, a massive majority would favour the Irish Language Act over a return to direct rule. If they didn't, SF would drop it, because they know that populism plays better than idealism.

It may not be enough to encourage unionists to vote SF, but it's enough to erode the DUP support - as time goes on, the moderate supporters will see the DUP as the greater of two evils and walk away to another party, or stop voting altogether.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't believe in "appease the unionists at all costs stance".

I just don't think an Irish Languages Act instead of a Minority Languages Act is so big a deal as to prevent the formation of a government in the North. It is really petty silly politics on the part of Sinn Fein on that issue.

On the issue of same-sex marriage, I believe that it is petty silly politics on the part of the DUP to prevent an open vote on that question.

They are both equally to blame for putting relatively minor issues ahead of the well-being of all the people of Northern Ireland, and I don't think that either of them really hold strong beliefs on either issue, they are just doing it to spite the other or to get one-up. It is really quite sickening to see the behaviour of both sides and I am absolutely fed up listening to one side coming on here all the time and trying to paint itself whiter than white when there are as many bigots and sectarian idiots on both sides.

This is a fairly trite view of something the ILA represents only the tip of.

'Bold children' really won't get you the heart of that problem that has ground the operation of the GFA to a halt over the last number of years.

Both governments and those who love to represent the two major parties as 'bold children throwing strops' have wholly ignored the oncoming train despite being warned about it.
They have (the two governments) completely welched on and exacerbated (the bung) the core problems.

tayto lover

Two parties shooting themselves in the foot at the same time and trying to pretend it's not painful.

Chips Lovell

seamus wrote: »

This is just part of the long game. They know the DUP will resist an Irish Language act. And they know it's really, really petty. But that's the point. The DUP are digging their heels in over something incredibly inconsequential, while Sinn Fein have basically agreed to everything else. The DUP come out of this farce looking ridiculous, so the next time there's a Stormont election, where that's one year or five years from now, SF get to say, "We're ready, we're open, we want to lead", while the DUP are still hand-wringing and saying, "We'll just have to see what comes up in the negotiations".

I'm not sure about this. By all accounts, the DUP were finally ready to sign on the dotted line this week but got cold feet and reversed course after rumblings amongst the grassroots. They were afraid about how it would go down with their own voters.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This is a fairly trite view of something the ILA represents only the tip of.

'Bold children' really won't get you the heart of that problem that has ground the operation of the GFA to a halt over the last number of years.

Both governments and those who love to represent the two major parties as 'bold children throwing strops' have wholly ignored the oncoming train despite being warned about it.
They have (the two governments) completely welched on and exacerbated (the bung) the core problems.

It is very hard for people on the inside of something to accept how they are viewed from the outside but for the majority of people in this state and the majority of people in the UK, both SF and DUP are seen as dinosaurs playing petty politics in the North and need to grow up.

That is how it is.

jimmycrackcorm

I'm curious to know why SF didn't agree to a consolidated minorities language act. Granted that Scots Gaelic isn't a real language, but what would have been the downside of recognition of that also?

Seems to me that what's going on is point scoring on both sides instead of compromise.

seamus

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

I'm not sure about this. By all accounts, the DUP were finally ready to sign on the dotted line this week but got cold feet and reversed course after rumblings amongst the grassroots. They were afraid about how it would go down with their own voters.

I guess that's kind of my point.

Like most conservatives, the DUP value their extremists more than their moderates. And they will twist themselves in knots trying to keep their "grassroots" happy rather than do things with a broader appeal.

Sinn Fein know this, and are deliberately poking at it in the hope that the moderate unionists will abandon the DUP.

It does mean that Sinn Fein is playing silly games when they should be trying to lead, but they don't come out of this looking stupid.

jimmycrackcorm

seamus wrote:

It does mean that Sinn Fein is playing silly games when they should be trying to lead, but they don't come out of this looking stupid.

It's going to be an impediment down south given their new found willingness to go into coalition.

Though we could probably resort to direct rule from Berlin (as we already pretty much effectively have that).

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

It is very hard for people on the inside of something to accept how they are viewed from the outside but for the majority of people in this state and the majority of people in the UK, both SF and DUP are seen as dinosaurs playing petty politics in the North and need to grow up.

That is how it is.

Speaking for the 'majorities' again.

Anyone with an independent eye would see that one party has fully lived up to it's commitments under the GFA and subsequent agreements to allow northern Ireland to be governed and one party has dragged it's feet again and again and again until the entire process collapsed.

Of course somebody ill informed is gonna say that the easiest way to progress is to pretend and paper over cracks and to appease.

It's painful to read this bias born commentary and not really interested in debating with someone who willfully ignores what is happening and why it is happening.

FrancieBrady

seamus wrote: »

I guess that's kind of my point.

Like most conservatives, the DUP value their extremists more than their moderates. And they will twist themselves in knots trying to keep their "grassroots" happy rather than do things with a broader appeal.

Sinn Fein know this, and are deliberately poking at it in the hope that the moderate unionists will abandon the DUP.

It does mean that Sinn Fein is playing silly games when they should be trying to lead, but they don't come out of this looking stupid.

I fail to see how delivering what they have already and now pushing to get rid of the last vestiges of belligerent suprematist unionism that they are 'failing' to lead.

Seems to me they have the DUP firmly boxed into a corner here, particularly the leader, who will disappear into insignificance unless she can find a solution.

James Brown

The facts are both the DUP and SF were ready to make concessions on Ulster Scots and Irish recognising both. Grassroots DUP told Foster no way and that was the end of it. She tried to paint it another way but that's simply false spin.
Others either ignorant or bias are trying to make it all about SF. Nonsense. It's about Foster trying to maintain broad support.

tayto lover

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The facts are both the DUP and SF were ready to make concessions on Ulster Scots and Irish recognising both. Grassroots DUP told Foster no way and that was the end of it. She tried to paint it another way but that's simply false spin.
Others either ignorant or bias are trying to make it all about SF. Nonsense. It's about Foster trying to maintain broad support.

Looks more like SF thought they saw a wee chink in the armour of the DUP to me but completely mis-read the situation. Big OG for me.

FrancieBrady

Gregory coming face to face with his own nonsense here. They had 20 years to make progress on simple issues that apply to everyone on these islands, now he wants more time. :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td4dT-AkKbM&sns=fb

I think any body could deduce who is the more reasonable contributor of the two here.

tayto lover

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Gregory coming face to face with his own nonsense here. They had 20 years to make progress on simple issues that apply to everyone on these islands, now he wants more time. :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td4dT-AkKbM&sns=fb

I think any body could deduce who is the more reasonable contributor of the two here.

The DUP are stone-age Francie so you have to expect the unexpected. SF failed to do that imo and tried a wee push too far.

Red_Wake

tayto lover wrote: »

Two parties shooting themselves in the foot at the same time and trying to pretend it's not painful.

Except it's the population of NI who'll take the bullet, with their deteriorating living standards due to Brexit. The politicians will still get paid out of the HM Treasury.

Neither party will pay electorally, both will blame the other, hold themselves up as the sole barrier between their respective electorates and some kind of state genocide, and the their electorate will cling closer to them for this perceived protection.

In a sense, they're each other greatest allies.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Gregory coming face to face with his own nonsense here. They had 20 years to make progress on simple issues that apply to everyone on these islands, now he wants more time. :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td4dT-AkKbM&sns=fb

I think any body could deduce who is the more reasonable contributor of the two here.

Every time I read a SF apologist launching into the whataboutery DUP it brings to mind an imaginary argument between a Stone Age man and an Iron Age man about which fits better in the modern world.

The real answer is neither, but they continue to fight and argue about it while the world around them ignores them.

McMurphy

doolox wrote: »

This would be a disaster for the North in that a large minority there do not have any Irish and have no intention of learning it in the future. Many public servants would be fired if compulsory Irish was brought into the North. Many teachers would be unable to continue to work if similar requirements were brought in like here in the South.

Given the favourable demographics in that the Nationalists are outpacing the growth in Unionist population it is only a matter of time before a nationalist majority tries to impose Irish on the whole population of NI, lets hope the do not alienate the Anglophone majority as what happened with compulsory Irish in the South, with most people speaking English, some people despising Irish and only doing the bare minimum to get by and others treating it as a National Joke where reality is completely divorced from sentimental aspiration.

What is the situation in Scotland? Wales? Do non Gaelic or Welsh speakers be left at a job seeking disadvantage if they do not have the necessary level of second language competence deemed necessary for certain jobs?? Does it have a big impact on monoglot English speakers in those countries??

Where did you read it was cumpolsary

"It did not involve at any stage making Irish compulsory or applying quotas to public services. This was not a consideration.

Some more details of what was proposed.

"For the record the draft record included an Irish Language Act, an Ulster Scots Act and a Respecting Language and Diversity Act.

"The Irish Language Act included provision for official recognition of Irish, the creation of an Irish Language Commissioner. The repeal of the ban on Irish in the courts was also to be legislated for.

"It did not involve at any stage making Irish compulsory or applying quotas to public services. This was not a consideration.

"There has been no meeting of minds on Marriage Equality.

"We anticipate that this issue will be fully considered by the Assembly in the form of a Private Member’s Bill and it is acknowledged that no party alone can table a Petition of Concern.

The DUP scaremongering and lies grew legs I see.

FrancieBrady

tayto lover wrote: »

The DUP are stone-age Francie so you have to expect the unexpected. SF failed to do that imo and tried a wee push too far.

It doesn't matter what 'age' the DUP come from or SF for that matter. You could characterise the headlong rush to Brexit as Stone Age thinking.

What matters here is who wants a normal society in northern Ireland.
You can see how trenchantly some want it to be the fault of republicans/nationalists that that hasn't happened just by reading this thread.

The facts, however speak of a different reality. All you have to do is ask who you have heard 'Never' from, the most.

tayto lover

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It doesn't matter what 'age' the DUP come from or SF for that matter. You could characterise the headlong rush to Brexit as Stone Age thinking.

What matters here is who wants a normal society in northern Ireland.
You can see how trenchantly some want it to be the fault of republicans/nationalists that that hasn't happened just by reading this thread.

The facts, however speak of a different reality. All you have to do is ask who you have heard 'Never' from, the most.

No, Never, We shall overcome, No surrender, Tiocfaidh ar la, Ulster Says No etc etc are all the same Francie. Language of the past that has no place anymore if we are to move on and grow.

McMurphy

tayto lover wrote: »

No, Never, We shall overcome, No surrender, Tiocfaidh ar la, Ulster Says No etc etc are all the same Francie. Language of the past that has no place anymore if we are to move on and grow.

'Tiocfaidh lmeans 'Our day will come' - It is a message of hope & optimism - it is about the future, not the past.

FrancieBrady

tayto lover wrote: »

No, Never, We shall overcome, No surrender, Tiocfaidh ar la, Ulster Says No etc etc are all the same Francie. Language of the past that has no place anymore if we are to move on and grow.

Again, deflect all you want from the question, it just shows you are not willing to be honest here.

There is ONE side that has abjectly failed to deliver on the GFA (and subsequent agreements) commitments.
Probably because they have been appeased again and again>

One side has rightly said 'enough is enough'.

Colonel Claptrap

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

'Tiocfaidh lmeans 'Our day will come' - It is a message of hope & optimism - it is about the future, not the past.

It's a loaded term for many people. Hearing Mary Lou uttering it on the radio was jarring. I didn't feel hope or optimism. Far from it.

FrancieBrady

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

It's a loaded term for many people. Hearing Mary Lou uttering it on the radio was jarring. I didn't feel hope or optimism. Far from it.

Don't get trapped into the mistake of falling for the faux outrage. It is designed to try and keep SF on the back foot.
There is no real problem with this phrase that has been used for decades. Ask Peter Robinson.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/peter-robinsons-parting-words-in-irish-spark-laughs-as-he-exclaims-tiocfaidh-r-l-34279641.html

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It doesn't matter what 'age' the DUP come from or SF for that matter. You could characterise the headlong rush to Brexit as Stone Age thinking.

.

You could characterise Brexit as Stone Age thinking, but that is just more whataboutery. Both SF and the DUP are stuck far in the past, fighting old battles.

tayto lover wrote: »

No, Never, We shall overcome, No surrender, Tiocfaidh ar la, Ulster Says No etc etc are all the same Francie. Language of the past that has no place anymore if we are to move on and grow.

I fully agree. St. Patrick's Day has become a day of fun, not of hostility to others. The same needs to happen to the 12th, but also to the Easter commemorations, particularly the separate and alone commemorations that SF indulge themselves in.

The language of the paramilitary - Tiocfaidh ar La - and the symbolism - badges in the SF online shop - need to be permanently ditched if we are to have true reconciliation.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that either side in the North is currently capable of normal behaviour. Until they learn, the less we have to do with them, the better.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

You could characterise Brexit as Stone Age thinking, but that is just more whataboutery. Both SF and the DUP are stuck far in the past, fighting old battles.






I fully agree. St. Patrick's Day has become a day of fun, not of hostility to others. The same needs to happen to the 12th, but also to the Easter commemorations, particularly the separate and alone commemorations that SF indulge themselves in.

The language of the paramilitary - Tiocfaidh ar La - and the symbolism - badges in the SF online shop - need to be permanently ditched if we are to have true reconciliation.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that either side in the North is currently capable of normal behaviour. Until they learn, the less we have to do with them, the better.

Saint Patrick's day celebrates our patron saint of the island - celebrated internationally by all walks of life.

The twelfth is a day where a group (or groups) from one religion celebrates its triumphalism over another religion, by organisations who actively forbid their members from marrying people from Roman Catholic backgrounds - that is the epitome of sectarianism and bigotry.

Comparing, or trying to place it anywhere near saint Patrick's day celebrations is lunacy on an astronomical level.

Junkyard Tom

An ILA which all the non-unionist parties, and a majority of MLA's, support has become a totemic issue, a test, to see if unionists can accommodate nationalist culture as analogous cultures in Wales and Scotland have been.

Unionism has failed the test and on its current path unionism is doomed.

As former DUP leader Peter Robinson said:

“For unionism to prosper in the decades to come it must be inclusive and not exclusive ... Unionism must reach far beyond its traditional base if it is to maximise its potential. That means forming a pro-Union consensus with people from different religious and community backgrounds.”

I didn't think a UI would happen in my lifetime and didn't really care once the north was at peace and there was equal treatment for everyone. Now I think it's a real possibility thanks to the DUP and Brexit.

blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Saint Patrick's day celebrates our patron saint of the island - celebrated internationally by all walks of life.

The twelfth is a day where a group (or groups) from one religion celebrates its triumphalism over another religion, by organisations who actively forbid their members from marrying people from Roman Catholic backgrounds - that is the epitome of sectarianism and bigotry.

Comparing, or trying to place it anywhere near saint Patrick's day celebrations is lunacy on an astronomical level.

St. Patrick's Day celebrates the triumph of Christianity over paganism, how is it different?

nuac

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I'm curious to know why SF didn't agree to a consolidated minorities language act. Granted that Scots Gaelic isn't a real language, but what would have been the downside of recognition of that also?

Seems to me that what's going on is point scoring on both sides instead of compromise.

IMHO Scots-Gaelic is a real language.

If you were thinking of Ulster-Scots, that imho is at most a subdialect of a dialect, spoken in a broad Ballymena accent

mollygreene

Matt Barrett wrote:

The facts are both the DUP and SF were ready to make concessions on Ulster Scots and Irish recognising both. Grassroots DUP told Foster no way and that was the end of it. She tried to paint it another way but that's simply false spin. Others either ignorant or bias are trying to make it all about SF. Nonsense. It's about Foster trying to maintain broad support.

Exactly.

This whole thread is essentially just slagging Sinn Féin, when in reality 5 other parties in Stormont are also in favour of the ILA.

St Andrew's agreement lads. This isn't Sinn Féin throwing their toys out of their pram - they are (along with other parties) honouring previous agreements.

I feel it's the DUP who have scored the own goal.

nuac

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Speaking for the 'majorities' again.

Anyone with an independent eye would see that one party has fully lived up to it's commitments under the GFA and subsequent agreements to allow northern Ireland to be governed and one party has dragged it's feet again and again and again until the entire process collapsed.

Of course somebody ill informed is gonna say that the easiest way to progress is to pretend and paper over cracks and to appease.

It's painful to read this bias born commentary and not really interested in debating with someone who willfully ignores what is happening and why it is happening.

Have you forgotten the Decommissioning Process, which was drawn out for as long as possible to extract political gains for SF?

riffmongous

Did anyone see the BBC Newsnight interview with Gregory Campbell a few days ago?

The interviewer really puts it up to him, which was a bit surprising. And I'm starting to think, as was said earlier, that the best thing SF can actually do at the moment is play the long game, especially while the DUP hold the balance of power in Westminster. Stay out of power and call the DUP out on as many petty issues as possible.. as the WM deal has really cast a spotlight on the DUP and it's highlighting the ugly nasty side of the party to those in the rest of the UK, who don't seem to have been very aware of the party until now and look at each new 'DUP collapse talks' article with bewilderment and exasperation, like in the interview above

tayto lover

[QUOTE=FrancieBrady;106169439]Again, deflect all you want from the question, it just shows you are not willing to be honest here.

There is ONE side that has abjectly failed to deliver on the GFA (and subsequent agreements) commitments.
Probably because they have been appeased again and again>

One side has rightly said 'enough is enough'.[/QUOTE]
I am not deflecting at all, just saying what I see.
I have no time for politicians of any hue and colour.
I have time for the man on the street who is the loser in all of this.
And again all that language and slogan stuff is language of the past. It has no place in any arrangements or talks for the future.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

St. Patrick's Day celebrates the triumph of Christianity over paganism, how is it different?

Get back to me when the loyal green lodge of saint Patrick's worshippers start banning its members from marrying people from non Christian religious denominations.

As already said, and I have said last night, the common misconception (wilful ignorance imo) from the usual anti anything to do with Sinn Fein or republicanism as a whole, is that this is a Sinn Fein demand alone, it's not this act has the support of no less than 5 other mainstream party's from the north, 50/90 of its members.

The DUP are doing what they always do, but they will end up where they always end up, conceding regardless.

Civil rights.
GFA
RUC disbandment and restructured
North South institutions
Union flag being flown on certain days only.

All of which they foughht tooth and nail, but happened anyway.

Unionism is on a fast track into a cul de sac.

McMurphy

tayto lover wrote: »

I am not deflecting at all, just saying what I see.
I have no time for politicians of any hue and colour.
I have time for the man on the street who is the loser in all of this.
And again all that language and slogan stuff is language of the past. It has no place in any arrangements or talks for the future.

Ultimately it boils down to mutual respect. Something the DUP never wished to do (see my above post)

Something I do think they should look into, perhaps a slight retweaking of the act is needed. Maybe try renaming it the "Gaelic language act"

I dunno how unionists could oppose any act that already exists in another part of Britain tbh without being pointed and laughed at foe the hypocrites they really are.

FrancieBrady

nuac wrote: »

Have you forgotten the Decommissioning Process, which was drawn out for as long as possible to extract political gains for SF?

No I haven't forgotten it.

The IRA were simply not going to decommission until the deal was done and being acted on. The British knew that. They lost that particular battle of wills.

FrancieBrady

tayto lover wrote: »

I am not deflecting at all, just saying what I see.
I have no time for politicians of any hue and colour.
I have time for the man on the street who is the loser in all of this.
And again all that language and slogan stuff is language of the past. It has no place in any arrangements or talks for the future.

How can there be a 'future' if this is what happens when you want 'simple equality'.

This Act will hurt no one.

Donnielighto

Why is the union flag only flown on certain days, isn't it the national flag, seems odd.

Donnielighto

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How can there be a 'future' if this is what happens when you want 'simple equality'.

This Act will hurt no one.

Just regarding this equality aspect of it, presumably it's a historical basis for introduction same as Scottish and Welsh as opposed to pure usage which would open up a while can of worms if any area become ghettoised..

FrancieBrady

riffmongous wrote: »

Did anyone see the BBC Newsnight interview with Gregory Campbell a few days ago?

The interviewer really puts it up to him, which was a bit surprising. And I'm starting to think, as was said earlier, that the best thing SF can actually do at the moment is play the long game, especially while the DUP hold the balance of power in Westminster. Stay out of power and call the DUP out on as many petty issues as possible.. as the WM deal has really cast a spotlight on the DUP and it's highlighting the ugly nasty side of the party to those in the rest of the UK, who don't seem to have been very aware of the party until now and look at each new 'DUP collapse talks' article with bewilderment and exasperation, like in the interview above

Yes, it cannot be lost on the average UKer what a difficult bunch they are to deal with. Remembering the Brexit 1st phase agreement last minute strop too.

McMurphy

Donnielighto wrote: »

Why is the union flag only flown on certain days, isn't it the national flag, seems odd.

It has been brought into line with British Government guidelines, and to be flown no more than 18 days a year.

It was odd beforehand now it's on par with everywhere else.