Irish Language Act in the North: Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal?

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

I am a constitutional nationalist

A 'constitutional nationalist' who wants to disregard the tenets of GFA and insists that a super-majority (basically 2 unionist votes = 1 nationalist) be attained in the north before we get a United Ireland?

Dear oh dear, words can mean what you want them to these days.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A constitutional nationalist who has never taken the side of nationalists on any issue on here. Colour me skeptical.

You couldn't resist a biased swipe while proclaiming it.

Look, you are only interested in the auld personal swipe in an attempt to discredit my views.

I take that as a personal compliment in that you cannot refute any of my arguments without resorting to personal name-calling.

If you could stop labelling people for a few minutes, and put aside your prejudices to actually debate the issues, this could actually be a good forum.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A 'constitutional nationalist' who wants to disregard the tenets of GFA and insists that a super-majority (basically 2 unionist votes = 1 nationalist) be attained in the north before we get a United Ireland?

Dear oh dear, words can mean what you want them to these days.

I cannot set aside the GFA. However, like most people in the South, we will not vote for a united Ireland if it is based on a 50% plus 1 majority in the North. Unless there has been a significant winning of hearts and minds of unionists, a united Ireland is doomed to failure.

uck51js9zml2yt

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

'Tiocfaidh lmeans 'Our day will come' - It is a message of hope & optimism - it is about the future, not the past.

I was going to ask were you watching ML on the late late but your posting earlier in the day.
No one believes that line except SF rebels as the dear leader called them!

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Look, you are only interested in the auld personal swipe in an attempt to discredit my views.

I take that as a personal compliment in that you cannot refute any of my arguments without resorting to personal name-calling.

If you could stop labelling people for a few minutes, and put aside your prejudices to actually debate the issues, this could actually be a good forum.

Are you saying you have supported a nationalist position on here? I would be delighted to see where you did.

It wasn't a personal swipe, a statement of fact isn't one of those.
BTW you don't have a view on the ILA, you only know why you will not countenance one which has everything to do with your aformentioned constant support by default (conveniently) of unionist positions.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are you saying you have supported a nationalist position on here? I would be delighted to see where you did.

It wasn't a personal swipe, a statement of fact isn't one of those.
BTW you don't have a view on the ILA, you only know why you will not countenance one which has everything to do with your aformentioned constant support by default (conveniently) of unionist positions.

Keep creating a bogeyman to avoid debating the issues.

Keep dismissing the views of those who disagree with you, especially when they are conveniently difficult to debate.

I support a united Ireland - that is sufficient as a nationalist position.

I oppose the ILA, north and south, that is a legitimate view, believe it or not. Irish is more or less a dead language, little different to Ulster-Scots.

Modern Irish culture has grown far beyond the Irish language, only those clinging on to old traditions fail to realise this.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Keep creating a bogeyman to avoid debating the issues.

Keep dismissing the views of those who disagree with you, especially when they are conveniently difficult to debate.

I support a united Ireland - that is sufficient as a nationalist position.

I oppose the ILA, north and south, that is a legitimate view, believe it or not. Irish is more or less a dead language, little different to Ulster-Scots.

Modern Irish culture has grown far beyond the Irish language, only those clinging on to old traditions fail to realise this.

I counter that by saying that Irish is far from dead. It may not be performing for a person who puts economics first but it is alive and functioning and needs support.

In the south there is a lazy attitude to it as there are enough active speakers and conservationists to keep it ticking over.

As an Irish person I believe we have to do everything to keep it alive and successive powerswaps between FG and FF and their failures in regard to it are not an excuse.

You of course keep claiming I have no arguments. Silly really.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I counter that by saying that Irish is far from dead. It may not be performing for a person who puts economics first but it is alive and functioning and needs support.

In the south there is a lazy attitude to it as there are enough active speakers and conservationists to keep it ticking over.

As an Irish person I believe we have to do everything to keep it alive and successive powerswaps between FG and FF and their failures in regard to it are not an excuse.

You of course keep claiming I have no arguments. Silly really.

Irish is a dead language, yes it should be preserved as a part of our heritage, but heritage is dead culture, not living culture.

The numbers of people claiming to speak Irish decrease with every census, the number of people actually speaking Irish decline even quicker.

I doubt that you could string more than a sentence or two together.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Irish is a dead language, yes it should be preserved as a part of our heritage, but heritage is dead culture, not living culture.

The numbers of people claiming to speak Irish decrease with every census, the number of people actually speaking Irish decline even quicker.

I doubt that you could string more than a sentence or two together.

Complete nonsense. I know more Irish speakers (considerably more) than I did ten years ago.

Head firmly in the sand stuff blanch. And even if right, all the more reason to protect and enshrine it with a functioning Act.
Dead language mo thóin.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

However, like most people in the South, we will not vote for a united Ireland if it is based on a 50% plus 1 majority in the North.

You most certainly do not speak for more than half the people of the south. Oh and support for a united Ireland is on the rise with young people so the number in favour will go higher.

Stop presenting your prejudices as truths.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

Irish is a dead language

I'll tell you where it's going to be very much alive.. in the north. I'd say within a generation the northeast will have the highest density of Irish speakers in Ireland, all thanks to the pettiness of the DUP and attitudes like yours.

Colonel Claptrap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And even if right, all the more reason to protect and enshrine it with a functioning Act.
Dead language mo thóin.

That's like saying more and more people are identifying as non-religious in the census so the obvious course of action is to protect and enshrine more religious laws in our schools and hospitals.

I'm genuinely struggling to grasp your reasoning.

The Irish language is not under attack in the south. People are just apathetic.

FrancieBrady

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

That's like saying more and more people are identifying as non-religious in the census so the obvious course of action is to protect and enshrine more religious laws in our schools and hospitals.

I'm genuinely struggling to grasp your reasoning.

The Irish language is not under attack in the south. People are just apathetic.

Equating a language and the cultural depth of it with a religious sect doesn't really work for me tbh.

Colonel Claptrap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Equating a language and the cultural depth of it with a religious sect doesn't really work for me tbh.

Well that clears that up then.

Junkyard Tom

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

I'm genuinely struggling to grasp your reasoning.

The Irish language was essentially beaten to within an inch of its life. Take a look at all the anti-Irish legislation that was used to suppress it in the north by Unionists.

An ILA offers protection from what happened in the past repeating itself and recognises the language as an important cultural aspect of the Irish nation.

This is fairly simple stuff.

jimmycrackcorm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I'm curious to know why SF didn't agree to a consolidated minorities language act. Granted that Scots Gaelic isn't a real language, but what would have been the downside of recognition of that also?

Seems to me that what's going on is point scoring on both sides instead of compromise.

Scots Gaelic is a dialect of Irish. Arlene only wants it because of the Scot part. She'd hate it otherwise.

Ulster Scots is the makey uppy one

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

In that, I am fairly typical of people down here, with probably around 50% of normal people in agreement with me. Another 30%-40% don't care about a united Ireland and the rest are SF voters.

Ummm bollocks

McMurphy

Tinsley Tinkling Sunset wrote: »

I was going to ask were you watching ML on the late late but your posting earlier in the day.
No one believes that line except SF rebels as the dear leader called them!

There's nothing to "believe" - it's a literal translation of a phrase that has been used for decades, has its meaning changed?

rockatansky

blanch152 wrote: »

.I doubt that you could string more than a sentence or two together.

Christ, your bitterness really knows no boundaries.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

I am a constitutional nationalist from Dublin who believes that unionists should be persuaded of the merits of a united Ireland, but that said united Ireland never deserved the spilling of a drop of blood and that those who spilled that blood (SF/IRA) should properly atone for what they did.

In that, I am fairly typical of people down here, with probably around 50% of normal people in agreement with me. Another 30%-40% don't care about a united Ireland and the rest are SF voters.

I bet you cowered under the bed with the curtains drawn during the centenary celebrations.


Thank God they only played with spud guns and water pistols back then.

jm08

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I'll tell you where it's going to be very much alive.. in the north. I'd say within a generation the northeast will have the highest density of Irish speakers in Ireland, all thanks to the pettiness of the DUP and attitudes like yours.

I agree. I see that the top 11 performing schools in NI (based on A level results) are all catholic schools that have Irish in their curriculum. Learning Irish doesn't seem to hold them back.

nuac

blanch152 wrote: »

Keep creating a bogeyman to avoid debating the issues.

Keep dismissing the views of those who disagree with you, especially when they are conveniently difficult to debate.

I support a united Ireland - that is sufficient as a nationalist position.

I oppose the ILA, north and south, that is a legitimate view, believe it or not. Irish is more or less a dead language, little different to Ulster-Scots.

Modern Irish culture has grown far beyond the Irish language, only those clinging on to old traditions fail to realise this.

Disagree with you there.

I have been at school and university with native Irish speakers. I speak Irish frequently in various situations.

It is an old language with a rich history.

Yes, modern Irish culture, especially music, has grown far and wide. So?

Ulster-Scots? You cannot be serious

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

Keep creating a bogeyman to avoid debating the issues.

Keep dismissing the views of those who disagree with you, especially when they are conveniently difficult to debate.

I support a united Ireland - that is sufficient as a nationalist position.

I oppose the ILA, north and south, that is a legitimate view, believe it or not. Irish is more or less a dead language, little different to Ulster-Scots.

Modern Irish culture has grown far beyond the Irish language, only those clinging on to old traditions fail to realise this.

Ulster Scots isn't a language at all though - so there's a bit of a flaw in your argument there.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The Irish language was essentially beaten to within an inch of its life. Take a look at all the anti-Irish legislation that was used to suppress it in the north by Unionists.

An ILA offers protection from what happened in the past repeating itself and recognises the language as an important cultural aspect of the Irish nation.

This is fairly simple stuff.

The Irish language was dropped and forgotten by the people of the North. They didn't care for decades about it and it died out.

flutered

blanch152 wrote: »

The Irish language was dropped and forgotten by the people of the North. They didn't care for decades about it and it died out.

if it is dead how com the to ten performence schools in ni have it in their curriculum

Fionn1952

blanch152 wrote: »

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The Irish language was essentially beaten to within an inch of its life. Take a look at all the anti-Irish legislation that was used to suppress it in the north by Unionists.

An ILA offers protection from what happened in the past repeating itself and recognises the language as an important cultural aspect of the Irish nation.

This is fairly simple stuff.

The Irish language was dropped and forgotten by the people of the North. They didn't care for decades about it and it died out.

New poster here myself, so I don't know much of anyone's history....but out of curiosity, how much time did you spend living in the North, and when, to build such a deep understanding of the personal feelings and motivations of the entire population there?

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

The Irish language was dropped and forgotten by the people of the North. They didn't care for decades about it and it died out.

This is completely false.

Irish has been taught as a lesson from the curriculum for decades, many clubs and societies provide Irish lessons on after school or evening sessions.

You are posting stuff with no substance or source to bolster it.

You've already been shown the results for the top 10 schools in the region, all of them have Irish as a subject.

This is purely a case of because SF (and 4 others, but you will have stopped reading at SF) want something - you feel obliged to oppose it, and invent spurious reasons for doing so.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

The Irish language was dropped and forgotten by the people of the North. They didn't care for decades about it and it died out.

This is either lies, ignorance or some combination of the two. The Irish language was suppressed in the north by the unionist/Protestant statelet.

You'll be all too familiar with these sentiments and supportive of these measures:

an assault on funding for teaching Gaelic was launched in 1921. Concurrent with the launch of this assault was the removal of the language question from the Northern Ireland census of 1926 ... Unionist politicians denounced support for “the so-called Irish language” as a waste of time and money. Gaelic was associated with political disloyalty, and dismissed as dead, dying, and as a “foreign language” ... A 1949 Northern Ireland law prohibiting the erection of street signs in Gaelic was not repealed until the 1990s

as.nyu.edu/PoliticsOfTheIrishLanguage.pdf

NIMAN

We had compulsory Irish when we got to 1st year in grammar school in Derry in 1980.
It was compulsory for 1st and 2nd year, optional after that.

Only a handful out of each class kept it on to 'O' Level, most couldn't wait to drop it.

Junkyard Tom

Fionn1952 wrote: »

New poster here myself ... how much time did you spend living in the North

You're a 'new poster' yet you're asking me how much time I spent in the north? How do you know I spent any time there at all?