Irish Language Act in the North: Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal?

The numbers at the min allow the DUP to disregard/disrespect Sinn Fein without any repercussions. I don't think Sinn Fein are willing to be patsy's anymore simply propping up a system that sees nationalists become ever more comfortable in the UK. It doesn't suit their aims.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What price are they paying? You are a bit vague on what it is.
Direct Rule is the last thing Arlene would want, she is effectively a figurehead in her own party. No job, just a title. (She tried to get a deal done if most journalists are to be believed and you recognise the real reason Varadkar and May hightailed it to Belfast)

Surprising that the defence of Sinn Fein took the form of implying that Sinn Fein pulled the plug on the deal that Arlene really wanted.

At the end of the day, Sinn Fein are outside Stormont, outside Westminister and sidelined in Dublin. For the allegedly largest party on this island, that speaks of a certain impotence in gaining power.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Arlene pulled the plug because she is not in control of the party. Twice it has happened now.
Everyone is outside Stormont btw. It is debatable if the DUP have gotten anything as a result of the bung to keep the Tories in power. All eyes are on their inability to deliver equality. That is not a good image to have.

I don't think same-sex marriage is as big an issue in the North as you think so the DUP should really have some sense and concede on this. They have already signalled their willingness to consider a Minority Languages Act, and it is Sinn Fein who are dragging their heels on that one.

Sooner or later, the electorate will consider it a plague on all their houses. I am fairly comfortable with the current stalemate as it exposes to all in Northern Ireland the futility of voting for either of the two sectarian parties. Hopefully, this drags on for a few more months and in a new election, the likes of the SDLP, Alliance, UUP, Greens etc. and other more mainstream parties make gains in the election.

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't think same-sex marriage is as big an issue in the North as you think so the DUP should really have some sense and concede on this. They have already signalled their willingness to consider a Minority Languages Act, and it is Sinn Fein who are dragging their heels on that one.

Sooner or later, the electorate will consider it a plague on all their houses. I am fairly comfortable with the current stalemate as it exposes to all in Northern Ireland the futility of voting for either of the two sectarian parties. Hopefully, this drags on for a few more months and in a new election, the likes of the SDLP, Alliance, UUP, Greens etc. and other more mainstream parties make gains in the election.

Your ability to ignore that the majority of other parties you mention also want the equal society being fought for here.

It would be wholly irresponsible to go back into an executive that will collapse again without this being sorted.
What you do not realise is that the electorate have lived with this suprematist denial of their rights and foot dragging since the GFA.
Your, 'Appease the Unionists' at all costs stance would therefore find no traction, and rightly so imo.

doolox wrote: »

This would be a disaster for the North in that a large minority there do not have any Irish and have no intention of learning it in the future. Many public servants would be fired if compulsory Irish was brought into the North. Many teachers would be unable to continue to work if similar requirements were brought in like here in the South.

Given the favourable demographics in that the Nationalists are outpacing the growth in Unionist population it is only a matter of time before a nationalist majority tries to impose Irish on the whole population of NI, lets hope the do not alienate the Anglophone majority as what happened with compulsory Irish in the South, with most people speaking English, some people despising Irish and only doing the bare minimum to get by and others treating it as a National Joke where reality is completely divorced from sentimental aspiration.

What is the situation in Scotland? Wales? Do non Gaelic or Welsh speakers be left at a job seeking disadvantage if they do not have the necessary level of second language competence deemed necessary for certain jobs?? Does it have a big impact on monoglot English speakers in those countries??

There is no proposal to have 'compulsory Irish' anywhere in northern Ireland.

Sinn Fein to their credit have realised since the GFA that playing the long game works for them. When you get to enact your own proposals, you get burned.

When you get to put forward proposals that a government will inevitably shoot down, you suffer no consequences and gain some additional power in being able to say, "I told you so".

This is just part of the long game. They know the DUP will resist an Irish Language act. And they know it's really, really petty. But that's the point. The DUP are digging their heels in over something incredibly inconsequential, while Sinn Fein have basically agreed to everything else. The DUP come out of this farce looking ridiculous, so the next time there's a Stormont election, where that's one year or five years from now, SF get to say, "We're ready, we're open, we want to lead", while the DUP are still hand-wringing and saying, "We'll just have to see what comes up in the negotiations".

I'd say if you took a straw poll in NI right now, a massive majority would favour the Irish Language Act over a return to direct rule. If they didn't, SF would drop it, because they know that populism plays better than idealism.

It may not be enough to encourage unionists to vote SF, but it's enough to erode the DUP support - as time goes on, the moderate supporters will see the DUP as the greater of two evils and walk away to another party, or stop voting altogether.

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't believe in "appease the unionists at all costs stance".

I just don't think an Irish Languages Act instead of a Minority Languages Act is so big a deal as to prevent the formation of a government in the North. It is really petty silly politics on the part of Sinn Fein on that issue.

On the issue of same-sex marriage, I believe that it is petty silly politics on the part of the DUP to prevent an open vote on that question.

They are both equally to blame for putting relatively minor issues ahead of the well-being of all the people of Northern Ireland, and I don't think that either of them really hold strong beliefs on either issue, they are just doing it to spite the other or to get one-up. It is really quite sickening to see the behaviour of both sides and I am absolutely fed up listening to one side coming on here all the time and trying to paint itself whiter than white when there are as many bigots and sectarian idiots on both sides.

This is a fairly trite view of something the ILA represents only the tip of.

'Bold children' really won't get you the heart of that problem that has ground the operation of the GFA to a halt over the last number of years.

Both governments and those who love to represent the two major parties as 'bold children throwing strops' have wholly ignored the oncoming train despite being warned about it.
They have (the two governments) completely welched on and exacerbated (the bung) the core problems.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This is a fairly trite view of something the ILA represents only the tip of.

'Bold children' really won't get you the heart of that problem that has ground the operation of the GFA to a halt over the last number of years.

Both governments and those who love to represent the two major parties as 'bold children throwing strops' have wholly ignored the oncoming train despite being warned about it.
They have (the two governments) completely welched on and exacerbated (the bung) the core problems.

It is very hard for people on the inside of something to accept how they are viewed from the outside but for the majority of people in this state and the majority of people in the UK, both SF and DUP are seen as dinosaurs playing petty politics in the North and need to grow up.

That is how it is.

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

I'm not sure about this. By all accounts, the DUP were finally ready to sign on the dotted line this week but got cold feet and reversed course after rumblings amongst the grassroots. They were afraid about how it would go down with their own voters.

I guess that's kind of my point.

Like most conservatives, the DUP value their extremists more than their moderates. And they will twist themselves in knots trying to keep their "grassroots" happy rather than do things with a broader appeal.

Sinn Fein know this, and are deliberately poking at it in the hope that the moderate unionists will abandon the DUP.

It does mean that Sinn Fein is playing silly games when they should be trying to lead, but they don't come out of this looking stupid.

blanch152 wrote: »

It is very hard for people on the inside of something to accept how they are viewed from the outside but for the majority of people in this state and the majority of people in the UK, both SF and DUP are seen as dinosaurs playing petty politics in the North and need to grow up.

That is how it is.

Speaking for the 'majorities' again.

Anyone with an independent eye would see that one party has fully lived up to it's commitments under the GFA and subsequent agreements to allow northern Ireland to be governed and one party has dragged it's feet again and again and again until the entire process collapsed.

Of course somebody ill informed is gonna say that the easiest way to progress is to pretend and paper over cracks and to appease.

It's painful to read this bias born commentary and not really interested in debating with someone who willfully ignores what is happening and why it is happening.

Gregory coming face to face with his own nonsense here. They had 20 years to make progress on simple issues that apply to everyone on these islands, now he wants more time. :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td4dT-AkKbM&sns=fb

I think any body could deduce who is the more reasonable contributor of the two here.

tayto lover wrote: »

Two parties shooting themselves in the foot at the same time and trying to pretend it's not painful.

Except it's the population of NI who'll take the bullet, with their deteriorating living standards due to Brexit. The politicians will still get paid out of the HM Treasury.

Neither party will pay electorally, both will blame the other, hold themselves up as the sole barrier between their respective electorates and some kind of state genocide, and the their electorate will cling closer to them for this perceived protection.

In a sense, they're each other greatest allies.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It doesn't matter what 'age' the DUP come from or SF for that matter. You could characterise the headlong rush to Brexit as Stone Age thinking.

What matters here is who wants a normal society in northern Ireland.
You can see how trenchantly some want it to be the fault of republicans/nationalists that that hasn't happened just by reading this thread.

The facts, however speak of a different reality. All you have to do is ask who you have heard 'Never' from, the most.

No, Never, We shall overcome, No surrender, Tiocfaidh ar la, Ulster Says No etc etc are all the same Francie. Language of the past that has no place anymore if we are to move on and grow.