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Home charge points (purchase/problems/questions) (See mod note post#1)

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    TheChizler wrote: »
    I was under the impression that getting a night rate meter in was free, at least if its the first time the installation is modified, a colleague just did it. Had you previously got one removed?
    KCross wrote: »
    I presume you mean the import/export meter for SolarPV because switching to a day/night meter is free.... just in case you scare everyone off switching to day/night metering.

    I have a normal meter.
    Called supplier and been quoted a charge for "upgrading " from 24 hours MCC01 to day and night tariff (MCC02) dual tariff.
    So not sure how some of you guys are getting the same fcukign meter free of charge while i have to pay for... ?

    KCross wrote: »
    What exactly do you want/need to know?
    There isnt any rocket science in them.

    How much you get out of the Solar integration will be very much dependent on you and your circumstances so not sure what graphs you need to see. Your question isnt very clear.

    Hi,
    We been here before and i promissed i will not end up in polemics.
    I will love to see numbers and / or graphs and results.

    What's the recommended panel array size,whats the charging rate and time based on the normal 3.3KW EV charger for that array or power.
    I have PVs and i posted my results for today: 0.5KWh.
    Can you show someone having PVs and Zappi live installed and using the diversion ...or ...are we chasing the mouse around the panels and charging cables. I do not sell Zappi or Panels...just looking at a second charger.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    rolion wrote: »
    I have a normal meter.
    Called supplier and been quoted a charge for "upgrading " from 24 hours MCC01 to day and night tariff (MCC02) dual tariff.
    So not sure how some of you guys are getting the same fcukign meter free of charge while i have to pay for... ?

    It is definitely free to switch from 24hr to a day/night meter. It is set by the regulator.
    However, if you ask for an import/export meter it is €350 for that AFAIK so maybe you asked for the wrong thing or maybe you need an import/export meter?

    rolion wrote: »
    Hi,
    We been here before and i promissed i will not end up in polemics.
    I will love to see numbers and / or graphs and results.

    Right, but numbers/graphs of what?
    It charges the car like every other EVSE? Why do you want a graph of that?
    Whether you use the Solar integration or not is entirely up to whether your car is at home during the day or not and what use is a graph of that.... as I said your question is a bit unclear... to me anyway.

    rolion wrote: »
    What's the recommended panel array size,whats the charging rate and time based on the normal 3.3KW EV charger for that array or power.
    I have PVs and i posted my results for today: 0.5KWh.
    Can you show someone having PVs and Zappi live installed and using the diversion ...or ...are we chasing the mouse around the panels and charging cables. I do not sell Zappi or Panels...just looking at a second charger.

    You can use any array size you wish. Any excess is diverted to the car if the car is plugged in. The bigger the array the more excess.

    Excess... send it to the car.
    No excess... charge from the grid.

    What use is a graph for that?

    As already explained the minimum a car will take is 6A. If the panels do not have 6A to spare it will either not charge at all or it will pull from the grid to make up the shortfall. This is configurable in the Zappi.

    Clearly on a winters day there will be no excess from the panels and so all the charging will be from the grid.


    You are over complicating it by looking for graphs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,833 ✭✭✭daheff


    daheff wrote: »
    I need to double check the documentation at home, but they are definitely PV panels. I'll look later tonight and see what i can find.

    So I have the docs in front of me now and its not exactly giving me a lot of information :(

    From what I can see, the panels are Joule PS260AC modules (x5).

    Googling this doesnt give me much...keeps directing me to a dead link on the Joule page....and suggests a Joule Pulsa PV. gonna email joule to see if they can shed anymore light on this.

    Pulsa PV looks to be 260W so ~1.3kW for the 5 panels. hmm


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,752 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    rolion wrote: »
    but night time and PVs kind of cancels the benefits of the well known integration of Zappi,isnt ?

    Not at all. It means charging your EV with your Zappi from your solar panels during the day has a benefit of 8c/kWh

    That's many times what the benefit is of heating your water with the excess from your solar panels via a diverter

    In fact, I would be delighted if we would ever get a feed in tariff as high as 8c/kWh
    daheff wrote: »
    looks to be 260W so ~1.3kW for the 5 panels. hmm

    That's fairly typical for a modern house. In fact most brand new builds around me don't even get 5 panels by the looks of it. It will take a bit of your electricity bill and you kindly donate your excess to your utility provider :p

    Forget about a diverter though. It will cost you far more than giving your electricity away for free


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    I believe the first change is free. The house had night rate when we moved in. I did the sums to see if it was worth changing back to a 24hr rate if anyone is interested:

    The numbers below are based on my bill for Sept/Oct - i.e. before I got my Outlander. We run Dishwasher/Washing Machine at night, and I work from home so I use a fair bit during the day.

    Day/Night Rate
    Standing Charge 31.51
    Day Rate 1135 kWh * 14.7c 166.84
    Night Rate 741kWh * 7.04c 52.16
    PSO 11.24
    Total ex-VAT 261.76
    Total inc-VAT 297.10

    24hr rate
    Standing Charge 25.15
    24h Rate 1135 kWh * 13.41c 152.20
    24h Rate 741 kWh * 13.41c 99.36
    PSO 11.24
    ex-VAT 287.96
    inc-VAT 326.84

    So Night rate is a saving of ~10% before you account for charging. If we assume 6kWh each night for 60 nights the numbers look like this:

    Day/Night Rate
    Standing Charge 31.51
    Day Rate 1135 kWh * 14.7c 166.84
    Night Rate 1101kWh * 7.04c 77.51
    PSO 11.24
    ex-VAT 287.11
    inc-VAT 325.87

    24hr rate
    Standing Charge 25.15
    24h Rate 1135 kWh * 13.41c 152.20
    24h Rate 1101 kWh * 13.41c 147.64
    PSO 11.24

    ex-VAT 336.24
    inc-VAT 381.63

    So a 17% saving for a full charge every other night. For those with a BEV it should be a no brainer.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,356 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    It's a no brainer even with no BEV. You can time everything to come on at 11 or12pm and run overnight, we run dishwasher, washing machine, tumbledryer, immersion and occasionally the car too. Before getting the bev my usage was approx 1:1.4 in weighting towards night, now it's closer to 1:1.6, and if I did more charging at home (averaging about 2 full charges per week at home with rest on work charging) it could be 1:2 or higher.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,676 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    +1, was always in nightrate, dishwasher/washing machine X 2/dryer/immersion all on night rate, ratio of close to 2:1.
    You also get the electric shower at night rate at certain times of the year e.g. summer hours go to 9am

    When the L30 came along it was a nobrainer to use that at night too with the on board timers

    My stuff for sale on Adverts inc. outdoor furniture, roof box and EDDI

    My Active Ads (adverts.ie)



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    daheff wrote: »
    You make good points. But wouldnt there be an issue with wet 'points' on a tethered (exposed) cable?

    No, they are designed and IP rated for outdoor use.

    There are caps to put on the end but as long as its not lying on the ground it will be fine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    I'm curious about the payback time for Solar PV. Does anyone have a ballpark cost for a PV system sufficient to output 6-8 kWh a day for most of the year?

    I have a large south facing roof.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    stimpson wrote: »
    I'm curious about the payback time for Solar PV. Does anyone have a ballpark cost for a PV system sufficient to output 6-8 kWh a day for most of the year?

    I have a large south facing roof.

    Wrong thread! :)

    But to give you a short answer.... no domestic system will give you 6-8kWh for "most of the year".

    Take a look at the Renewable Energies forum... plenty threads there showing quotes and payback times etc.
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057898473


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    KCross wrote: »
    Wrong thread! :)

    But to give you a short answer.... no domestic system will give you 6-8kWh for "most of the year".

    Take a look at the Renewable Energies forum... plenty threads there showing quotes and payback times etc.
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057898473

    I was looking for threads recently, but couldn't find any hard numbers. I may open a thread there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    stimpson wrote: »
    I was looking for threads recently, but couldn't find any hard numbers. I may open a thread there.

    The link I've given you is recent. Loads of quotes in there with the grant included etc, even as lately as yesterday.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    KCross wrote: »
    The link I've given you is recent. Loads of quotes in there with the grant included etc, even as lately as yesterday.

    Yeah, Just having a look there it's not looking great. unkel saying payback on a 4kw system to be 10-15 years if you already have gas. I assume it's twice as long against night rate @ 9c/kWh.


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,752 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    stimpson wrote: »
    Yeah, Just having a look there it's not looking great. unkel saying payback on a 4kw system to be 10-15 years if you already have gas. I assume it's twice as long against night rate @ 9c/kWh.

    Rough figure. It does however take into account night rate (which makes your savings smaller) and the fact that you work from home makes the payback period a good bit better

    The figure does not take into account that electricity / energy prices might well rise sharply in future, which will also make the figure better

    And of course, after your pay back time, you will have massive wins. Solar panels last many decades and degrade very little over time. And you will be doing your bit to leave this planet in a bit less of a brutal state for the generations that come after us...


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    unkel wrote: »
    Rough figure. It does however take into account night rate (which makes your savings smaller) and the fact that you work from home makes the payback period a good bit better

    The figure does not take into account that electricity / energy prices might well rise sharply in future, which will also make the figure better

    And of course, after your pay back time, you will have massive wins. Solar panels last many decades and degrade very little over time. And you will be doing your bit to leave this planet in a bit less of a brutal state for the generations that come after us...

    I totally agree, but there is a tradeoff against things like insulation, LED lighting (I've already replaced over 2Kw of incandescent with LED), modern boiler and heating controls. I plan to hold off for a bit, with the expectation that panel prices will drop in the near future. 5-7 year break even is what makes it realistic for me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,752 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    You can get 5-7 years but only if you buy very cheap second hand parts and do the install completely DIY. Also depends to a large extent on how much of the peak production you use. If you're at home most of the time, stuff like "ha the sun's coming out, I'll go cut the grass" could become a pattern. Charging your EV with excess solar PV also has a good payback

    You're right though about your priorities. All the stuff you mention has a shorter pay back than solar PV.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,450 ✭✭✭Batesy


    Is it always best to switch to a night rate electricity tariff if charging overnight?

    Am I right in saying the day rate goes up on this tariff so it could potentially balance out?

    It’s the only thing running overnight apart from a lamp in the hall.

    Had my charger installed last week and not sure what way to go.


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,752 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Yes if you go for night rate, then your day rate will go up by about 1c and your standing charge will go up by 50 per year (and your night rate will be about half your day rate). Your lamp is not the only thing running overnight though. Your fridge / freezer has quite a draw and all the stuff plugged in on stand bye and chargers all add up too. Also night rate kicks in at 11PM in the summer. Most people would still be up watching TV, boiling a kettle. And people would have electric showers etc in the morning before the day rate kicks in

    If you don't have an EV, you will probably already break even without doing anything differently from what you do now. With an EV, it's a no brainer. You will save a small fortune with the night rate. Particularly if you get in the habit of running things at night. Like dish washer, washing machine, etc.

    And last but not least, running stuff at night is far better for the environment as the percentage renewables is much, much higher. A lot of the time, EVs in Ireland are charged at night mainly by wind energy. Zero emissions and 100% renewable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭bonoman66


    unkel wrote: »
    Yes if you go for night rate, then your day rate will go up by about 1c and your standing charge will go up by 50 per year (and your night rate will be about half your day rate). Your lamp is not the only thing running overnight though. Your fridge / freezer has quite a draw and all the stuff plugged in on stand bye and chargers all add up too. Also night rate kicks in at 11PM in the summer. Most people would still be up watching TV, boiling a kettle. And people would have electric showers etc in the morning before the day rate kicks in

    If you don't have an EV, you will probably already break even without doing anything differently from what you do now. With an EV, it's a no brainer. You will save a small fortune with the night rate. Particularly if you get in the habit of running things at night. Like dish washer, washing machine, etc.

    And last but not least, running stuff at night is far better for the environment as the percentage renewables is much, much higher. A lot of the time, EVs in Ireland are charged at night mainly by wind energy. Zero emissions and 100% renewable.

    Thanks for the detailed insights with this topic - always value your feedback. Cheers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    Funnily enough, my Electricity Bill just arrived, and it makes interesting reading. My estimated usage is about 3 times my actual and I'm not 100% sure why. I've read my meter now so I have actual usage (or very close to it)

    My estimated bill is much cheaper on night rate, but my actual is about the same, but still cheaper on night rate.

    Estimated:
    470019.PNG

    Actual:
    470020.PNG


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  • Registered Users Posts: 64,752 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Spotted a mistake, so small correction on my previous post just for the record and if someone searches for night rate meter, I don't want them to get the wrong info:

    Night rate winter (kicks in with winter time): 23:00-08:00
    Night rate summer (kicks in with summer time): 00:00-09:00

    Linky


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭KAGY


    I also think that the standing charges double, so for rural dwellers that's about 260 extra a year!


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,975 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    KAGY wrote: »
    I also think that the standing charges double, so for rural dwellers that's about 260 extra a year!

    Standing charge definitely increases but don't think its that much.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,194 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    KAGY wrote: »
    I also think that the standing charges double, so for rural dwellers that's about 260 extra a year!

    Sorry but that's miles out.

    According to Energia's website the standing charges on a 24hr meters are:

    Urban - €181
    Rural - €230

    And for a night rate customer:

    Urban - €227
    Rural - €288

    So an increase of €46 a year for urban, €58 for rural.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    KAGY wrote: »
    I also think that the standing charges double, so for rural dwellers that's about 260 extra a year!

    As Phil said, you're miles out!

    General rule of thumb is that when you switch to day/night metering -
    - Standing charge goes up ~€50 per year
    - Day rate goes up ~1c/kWh
    - Night rate is half the day rate so ~ 8c/kWh cheaper.

    If you use ~3kWh per night you break even.

    Your background load of fridge, standby lights, alarm, modem etc will contribute to that as well, which people often forget. They think they dont use any electricity because they are asleep! :)


    If you have an EV you will be using many multiples of 3kWh per night so you will save loads. Add in delay timers to your dishwasher, dryer etc and the savings are more again.

    My split is 60% night, 40% day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    KCross wrote: »

    If you use ~3kWh per night you break even.

    Your background load of fridge, standby lights, alarm, modem etc will contribute to that as well, which people often forget. They think they dont use any electricity because they are asleep! :)


    If you have an EV you will be using many multiples of 3kWh per night so you will save loads. Add in delay timers to your dishwasher, dryer etc and the savings are more again.

    My split is 60% night, 40% day.

    Looking at my numbers above, I would concur with your 3Kw estimate. At 3.9kW at night it's slightly cheaper over the 24hr rate.

    One thing that has shocked me is how expensive older appliances are to run. My estimated bill is similar to my previous bills - around 1200 kWh per month.

    We are now using 350kW per month, and we only got the Outlander in mid November, so that is including the additional car charging. The difference has to be the appliances that came with the new kitchen (A++ rated dishwasher and A+ rated fridge, freezer, Oven and microwave)

    For all this talk of payback times, the payback time to replace your kitchen appliances with shiny new ones may be much shorter than a PV install!


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    stimpson wrote: »
    One thing that has shocked me is how expensive older appliances are to run. My estimated bill is similar to my previous bills - around 1200 kWh per month.

    Very hard to tell anything when you have estimated bills. An estimated bill is just an educated guess from your provider. If you have changed your usage by changing all appliances and adding an EV it could be wildly wrong.

    If you want to track it properly you should submit meter readings yourself. It also means you dont get any nasty surprise bills.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    KCross wrote: »
    Very hard to tell anything when you have estimated bills. An estimated bill is just an educated guess from your provider. If you have changed your usage by changing all appliances and adding an EV it could be wildly wrong.

    If you want to track it properly you should submit meter readings yourself. It also means you dont get any nasty surprise bills.

    The "Actual" figures above are calculated based on yesterdays reading, so are slightly over if anything.

    Looking back at my usage since we moved in, my average up to October is "only" 735 kWh/month (Sep/Oct bill was "actual to customer reading" and is 938kWh/month), so not quite as drastic a change, but it's still drop of over 50% in overall usage. And that's not counting higher usage in winter and the added load of the PHEV.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭denismc


    I use an excel spreadsheet downloaded from the net to track my electricity usuage, it does both electricity and gas.
    The prices are in pounds as its from a guy in the UK but still works the same, just ignore the pound signs.

    Very useful for anyone wanting to track their energy usage.
    Your energy supplier will have your meter read history so you can create graphs of past and current consumption.
    http://thnet.co.uk/power/


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭KAGY


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    KAGY wrote: »
    I also think that the standing charges double, so for rural dwellers that's about 260 extra a year!

    Sorry but that's miles out.
    Yes, just looked at my bill, and yes 0.626 p/d ~= 228; +VAT ~= 259.  :ermm:
    Must have picked this up years ago then when I checked Bord Gais and saw this, it looked like there was 2 standing charges confirming my misconceptions. Never thought to check to see what I was actually paying!
        
    Annual Standing Charge (€)     Unit Rate (Cent per kWh)     Unit Rate    
    Day Rate     259.21 Inc VAT     21.49 Inc VAT     21.49 Inc VAT
    Night Rate     259.21 Inc VAT     10.62 Inc VAT  9.36  Inc VAT


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