Stakeknife Arrested.

Red_Wake

brainfreeze wrote: »

piplip87 wrote: »

The Supergrass was lifted today. A lot of skeletons in his closest. He could possibly have information on senior SF members, Senior British Army/RUC members, if he is charged and goes to court his testimony could be great craic

Not in a UK court. In the world of inteligence and spies the details will be sealed due to "not being in the public interest", like they do with anything scandalous relating to the troubles.

For example, stormontgate. As soon as it went to court the judge ruled "the prosecution for the offences in relation to the accused are no longer in the public interest". This was so they didn't have to admit in court that Denis Donaldson was a spy.

Didn't matter how much evidence the police had about politicians being engaged in a spy ring in the event power sharing failed - the UK Gov ordered the Judge to stop because it wasn't in the "public interest". All that evidence? Throw it in the bin, our secrets our more important etc.

Like this, doesn't matter what the Bedfordshire Police think they have uncovered. If it ever makes it to court the Judge will get a phone call from the state, and nothing will be made public.

What's the legal basis for determining if something is not in the public interest? Seems like it could be easily abused.

brainfreeze

Red_Wake wrote: »

What's the legal basis for determining if something is not in the public interest? Seems like it could be easily abused.

I've no idea to be honest. We wouldn't even know why the Denis Donaldson case was dropped if he didn't out himself a year later. The problem with things like that is by design the general public is not in the know of the details.

I've no idea who handles the oversight. I assume the Judge is given all the details, but I don't really know.

edit: With a quick Google I found that in 2011 someone made a freedom of information request asking for this information, the reasons. They said they were exempt from listing the specific cases but could give him statistics. This was what was returned to him.



P19 - Informer or other public interest immunity issues. The second half of that sentence is vague.

Esel

John Joe *and* Scap - you couldn't make it up...

cycle4fun

Aegir wrote: »

aah, the old "we built the bombs, planted them and set them off, but it's the fault of the Brits for letting us get away with it" excuse.

Too true. One thing for sure though, it was great the security services were able to penetrate both sides in N.I. with informers: many terrorists ended up in jail as a result and lives saved. It helped end the troubles. " One in four in IRA members were informers Smithwick Tribunal told"

Franz Von Peppercorn

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I don't feel any moral imperative to take on the seemingly intractable problems up there, nor do I think unification (I don't say reunification because Ireland has never been a unified entity except under British rule - we were made up of independent, mostly warring microentities based around clans who occasionally cooperated with each other prior to this) would necessarily solve any problems for them or us (although it would add a few new ones such as "total economic collapse" and "civil war with the loyalists" to the list).

We have a porous border and despite SF/DUP posturing and the odd limited flashpoint things are fairly settled down up there. The "800 years" romantic nationalism argument isn't a good enough reason to fire the apple cart into the sun.

If the shinnerbots could just go ahead and call me a Shauneen West-Brit now, they may get it over with - it's how they usually respond to facts.

Germany wasn’t united for most of history (arguably it still isn’t fully) but the German people existed. Until the plantations there was one people on the island. Unfortunately there isn’t now.

riffmongous

cycle4fun wrote: »

Too true. One thing for sure though, it was great the security services were able to penetrate both sides in N.I. with informers: many terrorists ended up in jail as a result and lives saved. It helped end the troubles. " One in four in IRA members were informers Smithwick Tribunal told"

Except when they had innocent people killed to protect their informers.

cycle4fun

So that ten times the amount of innocent people could be saved in the future. Peace was worth fighting for.

cycle4fun

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Until the plantations there was one people on the island. Unfortunately there isn’t now.

Until the plantations of America there was just one people there. Unfortunately there isn't now.:rolleyes:

cbreeze

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

riffmongous

cycle4fun wrote: »

So that ten times the amount of innocent people could be saved in the future. Peace was worth fighting for.

That's not how the law works

myshirt

The 'nutting' squad.

Dare I ask what was their modus operandi?

Good god. I've met some serious criminals and violent people in my life, but never came across the idea of a nutting squad.

Junkyard Tom

cycle4fun wrote: »

" One in four in IRA members were informers Smithwick Tribunal told"

Well if that's true, which I very much doubt, you've got to wonder why the PIRA could do anything at all never mind shoot two high-ranking RUC men, kill 14 British Soldiers in the same year, kill 11 the following year, kill four UDR in 1990, bomb the London Stock Exchange and so on.

This was written in the early 1990's when the PIRA started to focus on Britain including mortaring Downing Street, wrecking city centres and financial districts with enormous bombs:



Lessons from the Northern Ireland Peace Process, p135.

Also, shouldn't Unionists be furious with Special Branch and British intelligence for letting the PIRA carry out all these attacks and killings well into the 1990's?

It doesn't add up.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Well if that's true, which I very much doubt, you've got to wonder why the PIRA could do anything at all never mind shoot two high-ranking RUC men, kill 14 British Soldiers in the same year, kill 11 the following year, kill four UDR in 1990, bomb the London Stock Exchange and so on.

This was written in the early 1990's when the PIRA started to focus on Britain including mortaring Downing Street, wrecking city centres and financial districts with enormous bombs:



Lessons from the Northern Ireland Peace Process, p135.

Also, shouldn't Unionists be furious with Special Branch and British intelligence for letting the PIRA carry out all these attacks and killings well into the 1990's?

It doesn't add up.

Like some here, victims didn't matter if Unionists thought they were winning.
But ultimately the British state will be losers as this nefarious meddling comes out.
They are emerging as the major players in destabilizing the statlet for their own selfish motives and ends.

Beechwoodspark

myshirt wrote: »

The 'nutting' squad.

Dare I ask what was their modus operandi?

Good god. I've met some serious criminals and violent people in my life, but never came across the idea of a nutting squad.

Something akin to internal affairs for the Ra.

Junkyard Tom

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They are emerging as the major players in destabilizing the statlet for their own selfish motives and ends.

They wanted to defeat the PIRA comprehensively and Unionists are fooling themselves if they think they too weren't used as pawns in the dirty war between the Provos and the British.

If a quarter of the 25 man PIRA team that planned and carried out the assassination of the two high-ranking RUC officers were informers then it's probable that people high up the British intelligence chain-of-command allowed it to happen.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

They wanted to defeat the PIRA comprehensively and Unionists are fooling themselves if they think they too weren't used as pawns in the dirty war between the Provos and the British.

If a quarter of the 25 man PIRA team that planned and carried out the assassination of the two high-ranking RUC officers were informers then it's probable that people high up the British intelligence chain-of-command allowed it to happen.

Lots of hard questions. Did they even turn a blind eye to the Thatcher attempt.

Rumpy Pumpy

A read of A Secret History of the IRA by Ed Moloney is worthy of anyone’s time. You can form your own narrative as a result, but there’s insights in the book that cannot be ignored.

cycle4fun

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They are emerging as the major players in destabilizing the statlet for their own selfish motives and ends.

Actually I am surprised you did not know it was the Republican goal to destabilize, which they did by the "armed struggle" and associated infamous bombing campaign.
It was not in the British governments interest to have a destabilized N.I. or Britain, it paid a huge financial, human and political cost. It was not in Irelands interest to have the troubles, with attacks on our Gardai, army etc. No country likes to be attacked by terrorists.

cycle4fun

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

If a quarter of the 25 man PIRA team that planned and carried out the assassination of the two high-ranking RUC officers were informers then it's probable that people high up the British intelligence chain-of-command allowed it to happen.

Not all of them would have known what PIRA cells were plotting / doing, or may may reported it in time due to concerns about their own safety.

Junkyard Tom

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did they even turn a blind eye to the Thatcher attempt.

I doubt it personally. The British were in the business of containing the Troubles in Ireland. I've often wondered why the Provos didn't concentrate on Britain much sooner where one bomb was worth 10,000 in the north, literally.

FrancieBrady

cycle4fun wrote: »

Actually I am surprised you did not know it was the Republican goal to destabilize, which they did by the "armed struggle" and associated infamous bombing campaign.
It was not in the British governments interest to have a destabilized N.I. or Britain, it paid a huge financial, human and political cost. It was not in Irelands interest to have the troubles, with attacks on our Gardai, army etc. No country likes to be attacked by terrorists.

If the state was a player then the conflict/war had no chance of ending until they stopped.
We need to know what they did.

What the victims and their families here cycle, are they of lesser importance?

Junkyard Tom

cycle4fun wrote: »

Not all of them would have known what PIRA cells were plotting / doing, or may may reported it in time due to concerns about their own safety.

So they were double-agents? Cool story.

Anything to keep that whacky Cowboys-and-Indians understanding of the conflict in your own head as it is.

As you were.

cycle4fun

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If the state was a player..

It was not a game, not when the armed struggle comprised of thousands of bombs / gun attacks on civilians as well as the government itself and its employees. Hence why they wanted to stop it. It was an embarrassment if nothing else.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What the victims and their families here cycle, are they of lesser importance?

What victims and families? 60% of those killed were killed by Republicans.

FrancieBrady

cycle4fun wrote: »

It was not a game, not when the armed struggle comprised of thousands of bombs / gun attacks on civilians as well as the government itself and its employees. Hence why they wanted to stop it. It was an embarrassment if nothing else.


What victims and families? 60% of those killed were killed by Republicans.

The victims that the British turned a blind eye to and allowed them to be killed.

Do their families deserve to know why?
Are they way down in your pecking order? Because you batted them away earlier as having been justifiably expendable in pursuit of ending a conflict/war.

cycle4fun

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The victims that the British turned a blind eye to and allowed them to be killed.

Do you mean all the Protestants that were killed by subsequent PIRA and INLA attacks when the British allowed so many Republicans to escape from prison in the early eighties?

Or innocent people like Jean McColville?

FrancieBrady

cycle4fun wrote: »

Do you mean all the Protestants that were killed by subsequent PIRA and INLA attacks when the British allowed so many Republicans to escape from prison in the early eighties?

Alright, you are just gonna deflect.

Perhaps one day your conscience might convince you that the only way all victims get equality is when all the players sit around a table and admit what it was they did.

I have been calling for that consistently since beginning to post here. You still cannot bring yourself to look the truth square in the face.

Good night.

Wheres Me Jumper?

we all know the Provos had/have many skeletons in the cupboard, in the attic, under the floorboards, & in a bog, but hey SURPRISE! SURPRISE! the mother of parliaments aka the UK Govt. it now seems has just as many skeletons too!

I guess HM Govt. were hoping, as with so many other sectarian mass-murderers on the payroll, some of his erstwhile comrades would have caught up with Scapatticci by now and "tidied-up" matters.

how embarrassing Jeeves?

cycle4fun

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Perhaps one day your conscience might convince you that the only way all victims get equality is when all the players sit around a table and admit what it was they did.

"all victims"? Many victims are in graves, or in wheelchairs as a result of bomb attacks.

"all players"? When you know who will not even admit he was in the IRA?

"My conscience" is fine thanks, I never supported or condoned either of the paramilitaries in N. Ireland.

Junkyard Tom

cycle4fun wrote: »

"My conscience" is fine thanks, I never supported or condoned either of the paramilitaries in N. Ireland.

But you support he actions of the so-called security forces unreservedly despite the fact that there was systemic collusion with unionist murder gangs who killed many hundreds of innocent Catholic people.

As you were.

cycle4fun

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

But you support he actions of the so-called security forces unreservedly

Not unreservedly, no. Some of the actions by a small minority of the hundreds of thousands who served there are condemned.

And far more Catholics were killed by Republicans than by the security forces.

the_syco

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The British/RUC will never admit that they were up to their necks in blood, along with their informers, most of which happened to be that of innocent Catholic people.

I think the IRA apologized for killing innocents back in 2002, but the brits have no strategic reason to admit to it now. If anything, it'd drive more young people into against them.

TBH, I'm of the opinion that Steaknife was captured a while back, info was given, watchers put in place near suspected arms caches, and they're releasing this info to see if anyone is still alive that knows the exact locations will scurry to said caches with an intention of moving them.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/unionist-anger-as-mcdonald-commemorates-ira-bomber-36540187.html

The Sinn Féin president-elect was present at a wreath-laying ceremony in Castlewellan, Co Down, for IRA member Peter McNulty, who died when the device he was planting at the town's police station exploded prematurely.

SF newest leader lays a wreath that celebrates a terrorist who bombs police stations. This was a very clear "fcuk you" to the brits, so releasing the capture of Steaknife could be someones idea of subtly saying "careful now".

=-=

I don't see the cat and mouse game between SF and the brits ending anytime soon.

Junkyard Tom

cycle4fun wrote: »

Not unreservedly, no. Some of the actions by a small minority of the hundreds of thousands who served there are condemned.

Small minority my hole. The dogs in the street knew so people who joined and served in the RUC/UDR didn't? You must think people are very stupid.

And far more Catholics were killed by Republicans than by the security forces.

Only if you fool yourself into believing the 'security' forces weren't up to their necks in collusion that there's plenty of evidence for.

Consider this fraternity of serial murderers, known as the Glenanne Gang.

John Oliver Weir - RUC.

William "Billy" McCaughey- RUC.

Billy Hanna - UDR.

Robin "The Jackal" Jackson - UDR member and an alleged RUC Special Branch agent

Robert McConnell - UVF and 2nd Battalion UDR corporal.

Laurence McClure - UVF volunteer and RUC SPG

James Mitchell - an RUC Reserve.

Robert John "R.J". Kerr - UDA commander.

Harris Boyle - UDR soldier and UVF volunteer.

Wesley Somerville - UDR soldier and a UVF lieutenant.

Gary Armstrong - RUC sergeant.

Captain John Irwin - UDR intelligence officer

Thomas Raymond Crozier - UDR, and UVF.

James Roderick McDowell - UDR, and UVF

John James Somerville - UDR

Norman Greenlee - UDR soldier and UVF volunteer.

Gordon Liggett - (UDA).

William Ashton Wright - UDR soldier.

Joey Lutton - UDR.

Laurence Tate - UDR

William Thomas Leonard - UDR

Ian Mitchell - RUC

David Wilson - RUC

The Glenanne Gang murdered 119 innocent Catholics and one Republican. Sectarian mass murder via collusion with, and participation of, the 'security' forces.

Run along now.

cycle4fun

And the above list which you copy and paste so often is debatable, but the fact that well over 100,000 security forces served in N. Ireland and yet there were relatively few murders out of the total tells us that the vast majority of people were law abiding. Same as our own security services too ( Gardai etc), although the Smithwick tribunal did find collusion in the Gardai with republicans too.

Junkyard Tom

the_syco wrote: »

the brits have no strategic reason to admit to it now.

They'll never admit the role they played in the dirty war, ever. Too many reputations to protect and the Great Britain 'good guy' James Bond-esque bullshit branding of their state.

I don't see the cat and mouse game between SF and the brits ending anytime soon.

Yeah, I'd say you're probably onto something there, the conflict is over but there's still a information war. Arlene Foster is being brought before the courts to explain herself for cutting funding into investigating 'legacy issues' (a euphemism for truth recovery), funding which would also have included investigating what was known about the Kingsmill massacre of Protestant people she claims to represent.

This shit goes deep.

cycle4fun

the_syco wrote: »

TBH, I'm of the opinion that Steaknife was captured a while back, info was given, watchers put in place near suspected arms caches, .

Thought they were all decommissioned?

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

They'll never admit the role they played in the dirty war, ever. Too many reputations to protect

And indeed some of them high up Republican,it has been speculated.
More important to protect the peace now, I suppose.

Junkyard Tom

cycle4fun wrote: »

And the above list which you copy and paste so often is debatable, but the fact that well over 100,000 security forces served in N. Ireland

All the people in that list are RUC/UDR.

I deliberately didn't mention the British Army grunts sent here from Britain who made up the vast majority of security forces in that 100k. I actually feel sorry for most of them who were themselves used as pawns.

A lot of the British soldiers knew exactly what the RUC were like and hated going out on patrols with them.



PETER - CHESHIRE REGIMENT (Brits Speak Out)

cain.ulst.ac.uk

You're losing the information war. Get used to it.

cycle4fun

And "Peter" was one of the well over 100k (some would say 300,000 ) British troops who served at one time or another in N. Ireland during Operation Banner. Do not both trying to find quotes from the other 299,999. You missed the point, most security services were law abiding. Otherwise the statistics would have been a lot worse.

Junkyard Tom

cycle4fun wrote: »

And "Peter" was one of the well over 100k (some would say 300,000 ) British troops who served at one time or another in N. Ireland during Operation Banner. Do not both trying to find quotes from the other 299,999. You missed the point, most security services were law abiding. Otherwise the statistics would have been a lot worse.

nacho libre

I doubt Freddie is that bothered about being arrested.
I don't think his pal Gordon Kerr will have any trouble sleeping tonight either.
It will be a whitewash.
Any findings that are made will be kept in house for reasons of national security. There won't be any prosecutions arising out of this.
The real question we should be asking is who within the IRA and Sinn Fein was aiding the deputy head of the nutting squad to get away with his deception for so long.

It would not surprise me if 2 or 3 members of the IRA'S army council were informers. A tell tale sign, someone is an informer, is charges suddenly being dropped because they are not in the public interest...

the_syco

cycle4fun wrote: »

Thought they were all decommissioned?

Look at those who joined splinter groups and gangs; not everyone played ball, and walked away. And thus some may have decided to play the long game, and hid a nice cache "just in case".

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Do not both trying to find quotes from the other 299,999. You missed the point, most security services were law abiding. Otherwise the statistics would have been a lot worse.

'Most' IRA soldiers obeyed the law too and engaged with the British Army, only a few bad apples did stuff they shouldn't have. i.e. Kingsmill, Jerry McCabe etc.


We can all play the 'bad apple' game.

It is patently clear why the British do not want a Truth Commission. They want to continue to hide behind the charade that so many Irish sycophants and hat doffers want to believe.

cycle4fun

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Most' IRA soldiers obeyed the law too and engaged with the British Army,

Well, apart from the approx 650 civilians they murdered and thousands injured...

The important thing was at the end of the Troubles, IRA members were afraid to go out on operations, because they didn't trust those they were sent out with not to be informers, or spies. According to reports in the media "Some former members of the IRA now wonder if there were more informers inside the Provos than actual committed members."

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is patently clear why the British do not want a Truth Commission.

Because the paramilitaries on both sides will never tell the truth? The leader of a major party for decades claims he was not in the IRA and most people do not believe him, for example.

FrancieBrady

cycle4fun wrote: »

Because the paramilitaries on both sides will never tell the truth? The leader of a major party for decades claims he was not in the IRA and most people do not believe him, for example.

If you believe the reason that they won't do a Truth process is because they think somebody else wont tell the truth, you are delusional and in a minority of hundreds rather than hundreds of thousands.
It is clear from what we know now that the British were up to their oxters in it.
And more and more is to come.

Polish up that deflection keyboard, you are going to need it

Wheres Me Jumper?

cycle4fun wrote: »

Well, apart from the approx 650 civilians they murdered and thousands injured...

The important thing was at the end of the Troubles, IRA members were afraid to go out on operations, because they didn't trust those they were sent out with not to be informers, or spies. According to reports in the media "Some former members of the IRA now wonder if there were more informers inside the Provos than actual committed members."

it certainly looks like they were totally compromised toward the end, and didn't know who to trust. in effect they had no option but to surrender. the Brits allowed them a way-out in order to "retire" with some modicum of self-respect intact.
from a military point of view, i think great credit must go to the SAS for their role in this.

cycle4fun wrote: »

Because the paramilitaries on both sides will never tell the truth? The leader of a major party for decades claims he was not in the IRA and most people do not believe him, for example.

i agree, but i wouldn't be expecting total transparency and honesty from the Brits either. leopard spots etc. but i'm sure they will argue that the end justified the means. try telling it to the families of innocent people who were murdered by their friendly informants? it would require a moral contortionist to go along with such a line of reasoning imo.

user2011

bonzodog2 wrote: »

I'd always assumed it was Steak-knife until I saw it in print for the first time only a few months ago

"Efforts by the British Ministry of Defence to silence Hirst led to a court injunction forbidding him to use or promulgate Scappaticci’s code name, ‘Steak Knife’. So instead he called ‘Scap’ ‘Stakeknife’ and the media followed suit. ‘Scap’s’ real code name though was ‘Steak Knife’."

Dyr

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/blaze-at-palace-barracks-in-co-down-36553873.html

Wonder if M15 bods were spotted running towards the blaze with boxes of documents?

Odhinn

cycle4fun wrote: »

Until the plantations of America there was just one people there.

Nope. Various tribes often with mutually unintelligible langauges, very different cultures and so on.

Odhinn

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is patently clear why the British do not want a Truth Commission. They want to continue to hide behind the charade that so many Irish sycophants and hat doffers want to believe.

They were ruthless imperialist bastards everywhere, but when they came here they were very nice and stayed for tea.

markodaly

It is amazing who the PIRA and Sinn Fein were so compromised at the end. No wonder they sued for peace.

Since then, the 'war' has been about image. Sinn Fein have done well in pullin the wool over peoples eyes but history will not be kind to them.

Fann Linn

markodaly wrote: »

It is amazing who the PIRA and Sinn Fein were so compromised at the end. No wonder they sued for peace.

Since then, the 'war' has been about image. Sinn Fein have done well in pullin the wool over peoples eyes but history will not be kind to them.

So the provos sued for peace and the UK govt even though they allegedly had them on the run said,'ok'.