Off Topic Thread 4.0

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

She did cry sexism. And she claimed that because she just had a daughter she wouldn’t cheat. All while on the court. And at the time she never claimed it was something she’d been thinking about. In fact she went on after the game to say she’d never had a problem with that umpire before and thought he was a good umpire.

Did the other players have a game penalty? Well... did they make three infractions? Because it’s not something the umpire just randomly decides out of thin air. You can’t expect anyone to accuse an official of foul play and not be penalized, that’s ridiculous.

She received coaching, “abused” her racket and then abused the umpire. If you allow for coaching being a correct call (which is absolutely debatable) then the Umpire was entirely correct with the infringements. McEnroe has been ejected from games for the same reason. Even if the coaching call was bizarre and unnecessary (I think it was), that’s sports and there’s not a single athlete who hasn’t been on the end of a bad call regardless of their race or gender. This is not like 2004, she’s absolutely in the wrong this time. The umpire is not entirely without blame either but only for enforcing a stupid rule that exists and that’s Djokovic was also recently penalized for.

Supposedly she thought at the time that he had originally rescinded the decision and that’s why she flipped when she got penalized for racket abuse, she thought it would have been her “first” infraction. That’s unfortunate but it doesn’t excuse acting like an entitled asshole. I’d hope she’ll apologise to the umpire, you can’t threaten someone’s job like that.

Williams:
Gestures between her and her coach - warning
Smashes her racket - point penalty
Flips out at the umpire - game penalty

The cases I cited were all one step down that chain, but they nonetheless highlight the double standard:

Djokavic:
Time penalty - loses a first serve
Flips out at the umpire - no further punishment

Djokavic:
Bounced his racket - Warning
Flips out at the umpire - no further punishment

Murray:
Warning for calling the umpire stupid (claims later he actually said "stupid umpiring").

Kyrgios :
Yells at ball boy - Warning
Flips out at the umpire - no further punishment

There's a fairly strong field of professional athletes acting like arseholes, but the issue here is whether she was treated differently to similar incidents involving male players, and to me it's not an outlandish claim.

Jump_In_Jack

Neil3030 wrote: »

Williams:
Gestures between her and her coach - warning
Smashes her racket - point penalty
Flips out at the umpire - game penalty

The cases I cited were all one step down that chain, but they nonetheless highlight the double standard:

Djokavic:
Time penalty - loses a first serve
Flips out at the umpire - no further punishment

Djokavic:
Bounced his racket - Warning
Flips out at the umpire - no further punishment

Murray:
Warning for calling the umpire stupid (claims later he actually said "stupid umpiring").

Kyrgios :
Yells at ball boy - Warning
Flips out at the umpire - no further punishment

There's a fairly strong field of professional athletes acting like arseholes, but the issue here is whether she was treated differently to similar incidents involving male players, and to me it's not an outlandish claim.

Gestures between her and her coach - warning
Flips out at the umpire - no further penalty
Smashes her racket - point penalty
Flips out and abuses/threatens the umpire - game penalty

She deserved it by the rules, she was way more abusive, and wasted a lot more time, and bordered on bringing the sport into disrepute.
She is lucky she didn’t get a ban, which is what would have happened in a lot of other sports.

Neil3030

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Gestures between her and her coach - warning
Flips out at the umpire - no further penalty
Smashes her racket - point penalty
Flips out and abuses/threatens the umpire - game penalty

She deserved it by the rules, she was way more abusive, and wasted a lot more time, and bordered on bringing the sport into disrepute.
She is lucky she didn’t get a ban, which is what would have happened in a lot of other sports.

Serena Williams wrote:

He’s giving me a thumbs up, he’s telling me to come on. We don’t have any code and I know you don’t know that, and I understand why you may have thought that was coaching, but I’m telling you it’s not, I don’t cheat to win, I’d rather lose, I’m just letting you know.

That's flipping out, to you?

kuang1

Neil3030 wrote: »

... but the issue here is whether she was treated differently to similar incidents involving male players, and to me it's not an outlandish claim.

I'm not familiar with any of the other's tirades, but did they call the umpire a thief? Threaten him with stuff like "You will never, ever, ever be on another court of mine as long as you live. You are the liar."
(BTW surely it's the umpire's Court, not the player's?)

But the main thing that puts me against Williams in this thing is her playing the daughter card.
"I never cheat. I have a daughter and I teach her what's right" (infuriating to me how the gullible American crowd start to cheer at the mention of her daughter, like she is responsible for an unprecedented feat of human endeavour.)
Then you smash a racket in temper?

Sorry luv. This is diva-esque.

Jump_In_Jack

Neil3030 wrote: »

That's flipping out, to you?

You’re forgetting that she didn’t let it go at that, and continued to act the maggot at the next break, going on and on about wanting an apology.

She should have got her head in the game at that point, surprising she allowed it distract her focus with all her experience, but she definitely kept it going way longer than the few comments you quoted.

I’d consider that flipping out.
She thought she could bully the umpire.

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

Williams:
Gestures between her and her coach - warning
Smashes her racket - point penalty
Flips out at the umpire - game penalty

The cases I cited were all one step down that chain, but they nonetheless highlight the double standard:

Djokavic:
Time penalty - loses a first serve
Flips out at the umpire - no further punishment

Djokavic:
Bounced his racket - Warning
Flips out at the umpire - no further punishment

Murray:
Warning for calling the umpire stupid (claims later he actually said "stupid umpiring").

Kyrgios :
Yells at ball boy - Warning
Flips out at the umpire - no further punishment

There's a fairly strong field of professional athletes acting like arseholes, but the issue here is whether she was treated differently to similar incidents involving male players, and to me it's not an outlandish claim.

I’m just going to stop at Djokovic here but he was given a warning. So you’re not really accurately comparing these things whatsoever.

If he had the smashed his racket he’d have lost a point just like Williams. It was the exact same stuff from the same umpire.

And Williams flipped out at the umpire twice, the first time nothing happened. So you missed a “no further punishment” for her. If you accurately compare these situatuons it’d help make things clearer.

And all these people are assholes to the umpires. It’s not good enough from any of them. Williams is one of the few good people involved imo. And it goes all the way down to guys outside the top 100 (who are mostly being coached by ex-pros who were just as bad!). I dunno if it’s just the type of personality that helps people succeed at the sport or what, and I’m sure it’s contagious...

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I’m just going to stop at Djokovic here but he was given a warning. So you’re not really accurately comparing these things whatsoever.

If he had the smashed his racket he’d have lost a point just like Williams. It was the exact same stuff from the same umpire.

And Williams flipped out at the umpire twice, the first time nothing happened. So you missed a “no further punishment” for her. If you accurately compare these situatuons it’d help make things clearer.

And all these people are assholes to the umpires. It’s not good enough from any of them. Williams is one of the few good people involved imo. And it goes all the way down to guys outside the top 100 (who are mostly being coached by ex-pros who were just as bad!). I dunno if it’s just the type of personality that helps people succeed at the sport or what, and I’m sure it’s contagious...

Again to be clear, I'm not claiming she is a saint. I'm claiming she was treated differently. In the cases I provided, with that very umpire, players behaving like arseholes did not result in further punishment - not when his mental health was questioned, not when he was sworn at, and not when his professionalism was questioned. Several male professionals have further backed Williams on social media, saying they have said far worse to umpires without punishment.

Edit - And on what your calling her first "flip out", see the text I quote above and tell me that's anything close to fair.

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

Again to be clear, I'm not claiming she is a saint. I'm claiming she was treated differently. In the cases I provided, with that very umpire, players behaving like arseholes did not result in further punishment - not when his mental health was questioned, not when he was sworn at, and not when his professionalism was questioned. Several male professionals have further backed Williams on social media, saying they have said far worse to umpires without punishment.

Edit - And on what your calling her first "flip out", see the text I quote above and tell me that's anything close to fair.

None of them called him a thief and attacked his character and claimed he would never share a court with them again. The closest is claiming he’s losing his mind which is far, far closer to what she got away with earlier. To be clear, her first tirade was her making out hat the umpire was accusing her of being a cheat which was absolutely an escalation and was her trying to bully him into rescinding his call. On its own it shouldn’t be allowed but that sort of thing flies all the time, very similar to Murray saying the umpire wanted to be the center of attention.

And if those players did do what she did they’d have gotten a warning for it. And if it had been their third they’d have lost a game. Most players, definitely including Williams, are smart enough to rein it in when they’ve already been pulled up so it’s rare to see... it just seems to me she just thought the coaching call had been rescinded so she would get away with letting off some steam smashing the racket and misjudged it. Then she acted angrily and made it personal.

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

None of them called him a thief and attacked his character and claimed he would never share a court with them again. The closest is claiming he’s losing his mind which is far, far closer to what she got away with earlier. To be clear, her first tirade was her making out hat the umpire was accusing her of being a cheat which was absolutely an escalation and was her trying to bully him into rescinding his call. On its own it shouldn’t be allowed but that sort of thing flies all the time, very similar to Murray saying the umpire wanted to be the center of attention.

And if those players did do what she did they’d have gotten a warning for it. And if it had been their third they’d have lost a game. Most players, definitely including Williams, are smart enough to rein it in when they’ve already been pulled up so it’s rare to see... it just seems to me she just thought the coaching call had been rescinded so she would get away with letting off some steam smashing the racket and misjudged it. Then she acted angrily and made it personal.

Wait, are you claiming her first interaction with the umpire, which I quote above, is akin to asking him if he's lost his mind?

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

Wait, are you claiming her first interaction with the umpire, which I quote above, is akin to asking him if he's lost his mind?

What I said was its closer to that than accusing him of being a thief and saying he’ll never work with her again.

Obviously accepting that, as we both very well know, asking someone if they’re ‘out of their mind’ or ‘losing their mind’ is not a genuine expression of concern for their mental health and is a common tennis meme stretching back to McEnroe.

bilston

The real loser in all of this is Naomi Osaka. In fact I'd say some people would read that name and think "who's that?"

Buer

I don't see the point in arguing over the finer details of the situation. She was completely out of order and behaved badly. Her comments to the umpire were ridiculous.

‘You owe me an apology. You will never ever ever be on another court of mine as long as you live. You are a liar. Say it, say you’re sorry. You stole a point from me. You’re a thief, too.’

It's ridiculous. If any man, woman or child speaks to an official like that they should be disqualified entirely. Perhaps men to get more leniency, there does seem to be an ingrained attitude in tennis that requires women to toe the line more than their male counterparts but to me that's all a wider discussion. She behaved disgracefully and should have the decency to hold her hands up and apologise to her opponent. Her behaviour incited a reaction in the crowd that was equally pathetic.

Williams needs to rein it in. She has history of such behaviour including threatening a female line judge in the past (resulting in a massive fine) and having a pop at a female umpire previously with the infamous “You’re a hater, and you’re just unattractive inside" comment.

Tennis in its entirety has a real problem with it. It is seen as part of the sport and was even viewed as somewhat charismatic and entertaining in the past.

thomond2006

Aaron Bleepin Rodgers.

Squidgy Black

bilston wrote: »

The real loser in all of this is Naomi Osaka. In fact I'd say some people would read that name and think "who's that?"

Real shame, completely overshadowed by the rest of the commotion.

OldRio

Neil3030 wrote: »

It's absolutely relevant because right now she stands accused of being a sore loser who had a meltdown and then tried to cry sexism.

Do you instead deal with it by questioning the umpire's mental health, accusing the umpire of double standards, swearing at him, or calling him stupid?

Because in each of the above (where Ramos was umpire) there was no point or game penalty imposed.

She played the Whataboutery card followed by the sexist card. She is a very manipulative woman, but most can see through that.
She's also a mother you know.

mfceiling

OldRio wrote: »

She's also a mother you know.

Is she? She never mentioned that before.

Zzippy

mfceiling wrote: »

Is she? She never mentioned that before.

Heard Ben Betts was the father...

thomond2006

Zzippy wrote: »

Heard Ben Betts was the father...

Nah he's signed for Ealing Trailfinders.

Zzippy

thomond2006 wrote: »

Nah he's signed for Ealing Trailfinders.

No way! Thought he was off to Leicester...

Mookie Blaylock

Just as an aside the, the WTA have come out strongly backing Williams saying that a man would have been treated differently.

Buer

Mookie Blaylock wrote: »

Just as an aside the, the WTA have come out strongly backing Williams saying that a man would have been treated differently.

They'd be utterly nuts to not row in behind Williams.

Buer

So Roy Keane is a complete nut.

sydthebeat

Buer wrote: »

So Roy Keane is a complete nut.

In other news.....

Podge_irl

Phone got stolen last week in london. Work has decided to punish me by giving me a (hopefully short term) replacement of an iPhone 5. How did we ever live like this!?

mfceiling

Buer wrote: »

So Roy Keane is a complete nut.

The whatsapp audio message?

CatFromHue

Mookie Blaylock wrote: »

Just as an aside the, the WTA have come out strongly backing Williams saying that a man would have been treated differently.

Weren't the cycling authorities very very supportive of Lance Armstrong and him never failing a drug test.....

Zzippy

CatFromHue wrote: »

Weren't the cycling authorities very very supportive of Lance Armstrong and him never failing a drug test.....

Funny you should mention that...

https://deadspin.com/an-anti-doping-agent-occupied-serena-williams-s-propert-1826993294

Synode

I laughed at this

Interested Observer

Mookie Blaylock wrote: »

Just as an aside the, the WTA have come out strongly backing Williams saying that a man would have been treated differently.

And the ITF have come out backing the ref.

Podge_irl

Interested Observer wrote: »

And the ITF have come out backing the ref.

Took their time about it.

I don't know how anyone defends an adult acting like that.