Star Trek Discovery 1x13 – "What's Past Is Prologue" [** SPOILERS **]

fxotoole

fxotoole wrote: »

Because the plot required it.

Yeah felt a bit weak. This all powerful nameless Emperor gets undone by a small coup on her own ship. I'm gonna have to watch it again because it didn't really add up for me. I don't get how Michael's plan to turn them both in was genius either.

pah

I reckon the Klingons got their hands on ISS Discovery which turned the odds in their favour. On top of never receiving the cloaking data from USS discovery

corkie

Johnny Storm wrote: »

I dont see anyway to get back to "normal" Trek continuity without some kind of time travel? It will have to be very well handled to make it not be a cop out.

Hoping it is not a reset of the events of the season, so that we have watched a whole season (or more) of a show and the events never happened. (e.g. Bobby Ewing Dream)

fxotoole

pah wrote: »

I reckon the Klingons got their hands on ISS Discovery which turned the odds in their favour. On top of never receiving the cloaking data from USS discovery

I like that angle - but it would mess with canon somewhat. If the whole reason the Klingons won the war came down to them acquiring technology from the Mirror Universe, then it would be well known that a Mirror Universe exists by the time the TOS crew go out on their 5 year mission.

The writers could always go down this route, and then subsequently pull a deus ex machine out of the hat - e.g. reverse all the changes to the timeline using time travel or some such.

ezra_

Nah - Harry Mudd will save the day.

Evade

noodler wrote: »

So he was feigning some sort of Comraderie with the aliens he rebels with?

Was he aligned with aliens? I read it as he was organising a coup with other Terrans.

Goodshape

Evade wrote: »

Was he aligned with aliens? I read it as he was organising a coup with other Terrans.

Yeah, petty Terran in-fighting. That's how I read the situation.

It wasn't looking for any sort of reform or revolution – he just wanted to be emperor.

TheIrishGrover

Overall I thought that was the poorest episode. I know, I know, it's 'cos I never like the mirror universe.

• Thought them bringing the emperor into our universe was silly. It's all going to be about humanising her for however long she's in the show "That's not how we do it here".
• Sad to see Lorca go. Not as much as if he was like that but from our universe. I lost a bit of interest in him when it was confirmed he was from MU. But still a loss. I suppose they'll probably bring in "our" Lorca at some stage when ratings begin to drop.
• What was with Michelle Yeoh's CGI leg? It was like a puppet. Was everywhere Sure, I know she was in some martial arts movies previously but c'mon.
• Burnham just isn't as inteesting as Lorca was. Nothing against the actor or the fact she's a woman or black or whatever, before anyone objects. Her character's just....... meh

noodler

Agreed.

Show, such as it is, loses half its appeal without Lorca.

Franz Von Peppercorn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah felt a bit weak. This all powerful nameless Emperor gets undone by a small coup on her own ship. I'm gonna have to watch it again because it didn't really add up for me. I don't get how Michael's plan to turn them both in was genius either.

There’s plenty of human histories where once powerful people lose power in an instant because people don’t fear them anymore. Watch ceausescu’s last speech.

The emperor had lost power because Lorca killed all her loyal followers. The Terran empire seems to do succession by violence, not relationship, and she lost, even if Lorca didn’t eventually win. The woman who was with Lorca will probably become emperor.

Franz Von Peppercorn

fxotoole wrote: »

I like that angle - but it would mess with canon somewhat. If the whole reason the Klingons won the war came down to them acquiring technology from the Mirror Universe, then it would be well known that a Mirror Universe exists by the time the TOS crew go out on their 5 year mission.

The writers could always go down this route, and then subsequently pull a deus ex machine out of the hat - e.g. reverse all the changes to the timeline using time travel or some such.

I think they will reverse the timeline (something Star Trek has done before but only in a episode or two). Who’s to say that this reversal happens this season though.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Yesterday’s Discovery.

The_Valeyard

The Klingons only control 20% of Federation space. Starfleet with the help of Discovery will use the cloak detection weapon with Starfleet to retake lost ground, resulting in the final battle at Axanar with Captain Garth. Then a stalemate will occur and a neutral zone created with the armistice.

Franz Von Peppercorn

The_Valeyard wrote: »

The Klingons only control 20% of Federation space. Starfleet with the help of Discovery will use the cloak detection weapon with Starfleet to retake lost ground, resulting in the final battle at Axanar with Captain Garth. Then a stalemate will occur and a neutral zone created with the armistice.

The map at the end indicated that most of federation space was Klingon dominated.

Goodshape

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

• What was with Michelle Yeoh's CGI leg? It was like a puppet. Was everywhere Sure, I know she was in some martial arts movies previously but c'mon.

You sure about that? Michelle Yeoh is a pretty incredible martial artists. Not saying there wasn't a bit of movie-magic going on but I wouldn't discount her moves as CGI without evidence.

http://kungfukingdom.com/top-10-michelle-yeoh-movie-fight-scenes/


Interesting that some people took against this episode. Differing expectations, I suppose. What really sold it for me were the action scenes – and I'm usually against too much action in Star Trek!

But in this episode, the action was fantastic. The hallway fight looked like I'd dream a Star Trek hallway fight would look like – with phasers, shields, personal transporters. All the technology was there and they made it actually work. It reminded me of a Star Trek novel I read recently (as much of this series does – remind me of a novel rather than a traditional Trek series) and was leaps and bounds better than any Star Trek phaser fight we've ever seen on screen.

Similarly with the thrown-room fight. Partially because Michelle Yeoh kicking ass is just a kick-ass thing to see! But I loved how they managed to do it all so well and still include a few Star Trek tropes with double-fisted punches and the like. Maybe it's just fan service but... I'm a fan.. I was happy.

And Saru commanding the attack on the palace ship (forget the name!), and the bridge crew working together – quickly! – was exactly how you'd want that to look.


Honestly, taking all that into account, I was more than willing to excuse a few shortcomings. And while the story might not be going 100% the way I'd have chosen it to go, if they keep up this level of quality then I'm fine with not getting my way entirely.

The_Valeyard

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The map at the end indicated that most of federation space was Klingon dominated.

Thought i read it was 20%?

Could be wrong.

noodler

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

There’s plenty of human histories where once powerful people lose power in an instant because people don’t fear them anymore. Watch ceausescu’s last speech.

The emperor had lost power because Lorca killed all her loyal followers. The Terran empire seems to do succession by violence, not relationship, and she lost, even if Lorca didn’t eventually win. The woman who was with Lorca will probably become emperor.

Tbh this just seems like a retrospective defence for a plot device.

Liamalone

The throne room fight scenes were laughable I thought, the choreographer should feel bad.

Their plan was to get caught then fight off 20 of them unarmed?

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Franz Von Peppercorn

noodler wrote: »

Tbh this just seems like a retrospective defence for a plot device.

It’s an explanation of how power works.

pixelburp

Yeah, any authoritarian rule is only as strong as the image of its rulers perceived infallibility; the moment that crumbles, and cracks appear, then the vultures inevitably circle. Dozens of emperors, kings, and autocrats down the centuries fell because of a failed coup, as well as a successful one.

coffee_cake

yeah i didnt have an issue with the power bit - once they got the smell of blood, she was done for

noodler

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

It’s an explanation of how power works.

Jesus, you are reaching.

pixelburp

noodler wrote: »

Jesus, you are reaching.

It's not wrong though; power, particularly authoritarian power, relies on its leader to appear invincible, or undefeatable at least. Lorca's coup clearly showed Georghiu could be got at, and in a hierarchy that emphasises sizing power by violence, it'd only certainly open the floodgates for other pretenders.

Hell even in democracies a weak leader is vulnerable; Margaret Thatcher famously undermined by a public comment that "doesn't she look tired?", setting the wheels in motion for her losing her power iirc.

corkie

pixelburp wrote: »

Hell even in democracies a weak leader is vulnerable; Margaret Thatcher famously undermined by a public comment that "doesn't she look tired?", setting the wheels in motion for her losing her power iirc.

Was that not used in Doctor Who as well to undermine a leader?

AtomicHorror

noodler wrote: »

Jesus, you are reaching.

Franz's explanation is completely consistent with how power and succession were depicted in the previous few episodes.

pixelburp

corkie wrote: »

Was that not used in Doctor Who as well to undermine a leader?
]

Haha, I guess mixing my real Thatchers with fictitious ones but iirc that scene took inspiration from the time (real) Thatcher was under threat of being deposed. Fewer space lasers were likely to be involved

Point stands though: the more absolute the power, the more brittle it ultimately becomes.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

There’s plenty of human histories where once powerful people lose power in an instant because people don’t fear them anymore. Watch ceausescu’s last speech.

The emperor had lost power because Lorca killed all her loyal followers. The Terran empire seems to do succession by violence, not relationship, and she lost, even if Lorca didn’t eventually win. The woman who was with Lorca will probably become emperor.

Except she seemed fairly worried that the containment was down. The palace has fallen and I though that you saw the ship gone, during the blast. Unless she could transport further than the Disco was warping?

As for Prime Lorca, no body or events at all to show that he did NOT survive. They are definitely leaving that door open for themselves

noodler

noodler wrote: »

Tbh this just seems like a retrospective defence for a plot device.

Would you stop. The Mirror is based on violent take overs and she had lost her entire support base. The crew was sworn to Lorca (did not know he was dead yet) and it was his original troops coming in the door.

She had no fecking chance of making it out of the room, never mind reasserting power