Dublin Bus Changes to Improve City Center Journeys

strandroad

AlekSmart wrote: »

One of the first observations made by Jarrett Walker on his visits to Dublin,focused on the amount of Buses obstructing each other,as they attempted to access Bustops,often for a single passenger to utilise it.

But it really is a Dublin thing, these bus stop traffic jams. It's down to the unique dwell time. In the likes of Lisbon, Rome etc. buses pull up, open all doors, people get in or out and the bus moves off in a matter of seconds. None of the pushing past other passengers through the single door/corridor, or paying the driver stuff. It's very rare to see more than two buses at a stop, they leave too quickly. It's not the short hop passengers fault that it takes so incredibly long to process them at the bus stop that other buses are held up.

n!ghtmancometh

Green party TD from Rathdown is calling for bus replacements because luas is overcrowded and unreliable. I wonder if us, the great unwashed, completely ignored bus commuters of West Dublin can have more busses to make up for the awful impact cross city luas has had on our already shoddy bus service too? Think I already know the answer to that.

prinzeugen

The mask slips again..

http://www.dublinpeople.com/news/roundup/articles/2018/03/19/4153582-comment-its-time-to-reclaim-college-green/

He claims that DCC does not have anti motor vehicle and a pro cycling agenda?

Bollox

This proves otherwise.


"For far too long, College Green has been dominated by traffic and noise and pollution from cars, trucks and buses. Of course, this plan should happen for environmental reasons and also so that we can hear ourselves speak over the sound of trucks and buses."

The hatred is there

Zebra3

What’s wrong with having an anti motor vehicle agenda?

They cause noise pollution.

They cause air pollution.

They cause congestion.

They kill people through accidents as well as through air pollution.

prinzeugen

Zebra3 wrote: »

They kill people through accidents as well as through air pollution.

Unless you have attended every inquest into every road death, please do not use motorists as a scapegoat.

IE 222

Its purely an anti motor innovation which provides no alternative means of people getting from A to B.

Whats their obsession with wanting College Green? It wont offer any additional benefit to the city. It will be to small to hold any type of event, purpose, use and will have a Luas line and cycle track running through the centre of it.

Why not pedestrian O'Connell Street instead which would have a less effect on surrounding traffic flows. With all the major predestination street around the city none are actually connected to each other so whats the point.

n!ghtmancometh

Zebra3 wrote: »

What’s wrong with having an anti motor vehicle agenda?

They cause noise pollution.

They cause air pollution.

They cause congestion.

They kill people through accidents as well as through air pollution.

Nothing wrong with an anti motor agenda. But it's completely wrong to have an anti bus agenda, which is clearly the case, as busses are the biggest public transport provider in the city. Zero consideration is being given to people who have no luas or dart, and who's only option is the bus. I bet if Keegan had to spend 80 minutes each way on a jam packed bus from western suburbs he'd change his opinion fairly quickly.

Banning buses from college green with no suitable alternative provided is completely wrong, and verging on discriminatory in my opinion.

trellheim

correct and right. The Plaza - on its own - sounds nice . So do the dedicated Cycle lanes ; but keeping the majority of the people moving efficiently though - on buses - keeps the city moving !

Hurrache

prinzeugen wrote: »

"For far too long, College Green has been dominated by traffic and noise and pollution from cars, trucks and buses. Of course, this plan should happen for environmental reasons and also so that we can hear ourselves speak over the sound of trucks and buses."

There's not a thing wrong with that statement, regardless if your mind is clouded towards one form of transport or another.

IE 222 wrote: »

Its purely an anti motor innovation which provides no alternative means of people getting from A to B.

What's stopping people getting from A to B?

cgcsb

prinzeugen wrote: »

The mask slips again..

http://www.dublinpeople.com/news/roundup/articles/2018/03/19/4153582-comment-its-time-to-reclaim-college-green/

He claims that DCC does not have anti motor vehicle and a pro cycling agenda?

Bollox

This proves otherwise.


"For far too long, College Green has been dominated by traffic and noise and pollution from cars, trucks and buses. Of course, this plan should happen for environmental reasons and also so that we can hear ourselves speak over the sound of trucks and buses."

The hatred is there

An anti-motor vehicle and pro cycling agenda you say? he has my vote. The current number of cars entering Dublin City Centre can be halved easily.

cgcsb

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

Nothing wrong with an anti motor agenda. But it's completely wrong to have an anti bus agenda, which is clearly the case, as busses are the biggest public transport provider in the city. Zero consideration is being given to people who have no luas or dart, and who's only option is the bus. I bet if Keegan had to spend 80 minutes each way on a jam packed bus from western suburbs he'd change his opinion fairly quickly.

Banning buses from college green with no suitable alternative provided is completely wrong, and verging on discriminatory in my opinion.

DCC and Dublin Bus should have used the 5 years of luas construction to put together a mobility plan that'd distrubute cross city buses to Gratten, Butt, Hacket, O'Connell and Father Mathew bridges providing drastically improved bus priority at each location and then proceed with the plaza which should have been completed by November 2017. Like everything in Ireland we have to wait for a perfectly predictable crisis to strike before anyone will do anything.

dfx-

thomasj wrote: »

Just to point out I'm on a 39 on a VT just now at 9pm where there's over 20 people standing downstairs. The 39a that didn't stop for us 5 minutes earlier was the same

Imagine when the NTA get their way and the VTs are replaced by GTs or GT-copies.

Plus as this service is (a) outside of the morning peak hours and (b) outside of office hours, then there is no chance it will be improved, noticed or looked at.

The 39A shouldn't go further south than Merrion Sq at a stretch.

trellheim

39 and 39a fill really rapidly in the core outbound , in addition a lot of tourists and cross-city users board at Bachelors walk inbound. Might there be a scope for a 39S .. ie one that stops short and turns round at Grattan Bridge, back out to Blanch but run it every 5 minutes with a full service 39 then every 15 ? many many commuters and users get off at Ormonde Quay

ignorance is strength

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

Nothing wrong with an anti motor agenda. But it's completely wrong to have an anti bus agenda, which is clearly the case, as busses are the biggest public transport provider in the city. Zero consideration is being given to people who have no luas or dart, and who's only option is the bus. I bet if Keegan had to spend 80 minutes each way on a jam packed bus from western suburbs he'd change his opinion fairly quickly.

Banning buses from college green with no suitable alternative provided is completely wrong, and verging on discriminatory in my opinion.

Fintan O'Toole has made a similar argument in the IT. But the Dart only skirts the city centre; I don't know why users of adaptable buses should feel entitled to be dropped in the very centre of the city.

It seems to me that the principal problem is that poor town planning has allowed Dame Street/College Green to become the central bus artery in the city, when it never should have been. The current problems, then, are a necessary part of rectifying that.

Stephen15

trellheim wrote: »

correct and right. The Plaza - on its own - sounds nice . So do the dedicated Cycle lanes ; but keeping the majority of the people moving efficiently though - on buses - keeps the city moving !

The thing is though buses do not move efficently through College Green as buses are obstructing one another it's a bus bottleneck not because of cars or any other vehicles but because of buses themselves.

It seems Dublin is just not suited to high quality public transport operations and it's all because of poor planning roads are too narrow outside the CC and railways and tramways are too space restricted. Other cities which have a historic centre like Dublin have it pedestrianised and have large bus stations near the city centre where buses terminate and go back out into the suburbs. There is not enough space in Dublin to allow this.

IE 222

Hurrache wrote: »

There's not a thing wrong with that statement, regardless if your mind is clouded towards one form of transport or another.




What's stopping people getting from A to B?

A pile of pavement stones and ballards been dumped in the middle of the city.

KD345

Stephen15 wrote: »

The thing is though buses do not move efficently through College Green as buses are obstructing one another it's a bus bottleneck not because of cars or any other vehicles but because of buses themselves.

Actually, with the College Green bus gate, buses moved very well through the area. The bus gate was praised by all bodies and was mostly respected by private motorists. Buses are not the reason buses can no longer pass freely through College Green.

dashcamdanny

KD345 wrote: »

Actually, with the College Green bus gate, buses moved very well through the area. The bus gate was praised by all bodies and was mostly respected by private motorists. Buses are not the reason buses can no longer pass freely through College Green.

Lets be clear.
Its respected by private motorist because only a fool would blatantly break the law in front of a massive Garda station.

The bus gate is a horrendous mess. Taking 25mins to go 100 meters is not the direction we should be going.

fritzelly

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Lets be clear.
Its respected by private motorist because only a fool would blatantly break the law in front of a massive Garda station.

The bus gate is a horrendous mess. Taking 25mins to go 100 meters is not the direction we should be going.

Doesn't stop taxis in the morning still breaking the law when there is no garda around, actually saw a few cars go that way the other evening as well.

From my travels in the morning and evening traffic is moving a lot faster - still a bit slow northbound but not as bad. Now if they only got rid of all taxis morning and evening then buses would be flying through in both directions

Hurrache

IE 222 wrote: »

A pile of pavement stones and ballards been dumped in the middle of the city.

And presumably legs cut off too?

IE 222

Hurrache wrote: »

And presumably legs cut off too?

Yeah good point, some people would be missing legs or lost the use them. Sure the numerous amounts of people sitting around the plaza could help escort them through if their not to busy enjoying the new found fresh air.

n!ghtmancometh

ignorance is strength wrote: »

Fintan O'Toole has made a similar argument in the IT. But the Dart only skirts the city centre; I don't know why users of adaptable buses should feel entitled to be dropped in the very centre of the city.

It seems to me that the principal problem is that poor town planning has allowed Dame Street/College Green to become the central bus artery in the city, when it never should have been. The current problems, then, are a necessary part of rectifying that.

Come off it. Dart stops in Pearse, Tara and Connolly. Don't know how you could argue they are not in or close to the city centre.

And as an aside, why shouldn't people from areas with no easy access to DART, Luas and who now have also been ignored by the NTA again with the new metro plan, who pay the same fares and taxes as everyone else ,not be entitled to public transportation transporting them to the main employment centre in the city?

Busses aren't adaptable at all in this city, as DCC refuses to give them any sort of decent priority to make them so. The only rectifying DCC have in mind is turfing busses away from College Gree and sending them down the quays, people from the suburbs be damned.

KD345

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Lets be clear.
Its respected by private motorist because only a fool would blatantly break the law in front of a massive Garda station.

The bus gate is a horrendous mess. Taking 25mins to go 100 meters is not the direction we should be going.

The bus gate may be a mess now, but up until last December it was extremely effective in keeping buses moving through the heart of the city. When introduced, Dublin City Council praised it, and bus journey times were reduced. Now, we have the council wanting to remove these same buses from the area and have not provided adequate re-routing plans. Until they do that, the buses which they recognised back in 2009 as being so important to commuters, should stay in place.

ignorance is strength

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

Come off it. Dart stops in Pearse, Tara and Connolly. Don't know how you could argue they are not in or close to the city centre.

And as an aside, why shouldn't people from areas with no easy access to DART, Luas and who now have also been ignored by the NTA again with the new metro plan, who pay the same fares and taxes as everyone else ,not be entitled to public transportation transporting them to the main employment centre in the city?

Busses aren't adaptable at all in this city, as DCC refuses to give them any sort of decent priority to make them so. The only rectifying DCC have in mind is turfing busses away from College Gree and sending them down the quays, people from the suburbs be damned.

I said they skirt the city centre. Each is a ten minute walk from anything that could be described as the city centre.

Of course people not on the Dart and Luas lines should have access to transport to the city, and the current offering should be substantially improved. What I said was that such people shouldn't expect to be dropped to the foot of Grafton Street. Incidentally, the centre of Dublin is not the main employment area in the city.

Buses, by not having rails and permanent stations, are patently adaptable. You say that they aren't adaptable because DCC won't give them priority, but don't you realise it's precisely their adaptability that allows them to continue to provide a service despite that absence of that prioritisation?!

KD345

ignorance is strength wrote: »

Buses, by not having rails and permanent stations, are patently adaptable. You say that they aren't adaptable because DCC won't give them priority, but don't you realise it's precisely their adaptability that allows them to continue to provide a service despite that absence of that prioritisation?!

That depends on how you define ‘providing a service’. Sure, you can re-route a bus onto an already congested street and call that adapting, but it certainly isn’t good service. Buses can only operate efficiently if they have priority in the city. This is especially the case for cross city routes.
Absolutely none of the plans shown so far have detailed how bus priority will be retained and how key city centre locations can be reached.

ignorance is strength

I fully accept that unless Dublin City Council puts in place an adequate alternative plan, the service will be compromised; my point was simply that buses are best in a position to adapt to such plans, where rail transports aren't.

KD345 wrote: »

Absolutely none of the plans shown so far have detailed how bus priority will be retained and how key city centre locations can be reached.

That simply isn't true. A DCC transport study from 2016 proposes converting Parliament Street to a two-way bus-only road and designating D'Olier street as the central bus terminus, involving building a median.

punisher5112

It's ridiculous what's gone on for years and still no change.

Enforce bus stops and bus lanes and yellow box junctions.

Put in systems which are around since 90's to change lights to give bus priority.

Get rid of 90's tech ticket machines and get people moving.

Get people away from the idea it's ok to wait till they're on to then look for card or money or pass or just stroll on and completely ignore the driver.

Put up boards which give passengers more info so to leave the driver alone as they aren't there to hold ones hand or baby-sit.

Have proper inspector ticket checking and get on top of anti social behavior.

If a passenger, pedestrian other road user etc holds a bus up or obstructs they should be prosecuted for loss of bus journey etc.

So much holds a service up it's actually unbelievable to most.

Get transportation priority and get people moving much quicker and get them out of their cars.

KD345

ignorance is strength wrote: »

That simply isn't true. A DCC transport study from 2016 proposes converting Parliament Street to a two-way bus-only road and designating D'Olier street as the central bus terminus, involving building a median.

A lot has changed since then, the proposal to use Parliament Street is currently the subject of a major hearing with An Bord Pleanana with many objections. Those plans you mention from 2016 also included making part of Eden Quay car free and bus/taxi only, but these plans were also quickly dropped.

The most recent set of plans from DCC sees routes like the 16 taken away from the Camden Street and George’s Street corridor and instead run down Patrick Street and Winetavern Street onto the quays. Southbound buses ‘may’ be able to turn right off O’Connell Bridge onto Aston Quay, but ‘may’ have to loop around D’Olier Street and Westmoreland Street.

I can see no bus priority comparable with what DCC felt was needed with the College Green bus gate.

ignorance is strength

KD345 wrote: »

A lot has changed since then, the proposal to use Parliament Street is currently the subject of a major hearing with An Bord Pleanana with many objections. Those plans you mention from 2016 also included making part of Eden Quay car free and bus/taxi only, but these plans were also quickly dropped.

The most recent set of plans from DCC sees routes like the 16 taken away from the Camden Street and George’s Street corridor and instead run down Patrick Street and Winetavern Street onto the quays. Southbound buses ‘may’ be able to turn right off O’Connell Bridge onto Aston Quay, but ‘may’ have to loop around D’Olier Street and Westmoreland Street.

I can see no bus priority comparable with what DCC felt was needed with the College Green bus gate.

I don’t doubt your familiarity with the plans. But I was responding to your claim that “absolutely none” of the plans dealt with prioritising buses, which I understood to mean proposed alternates were inadequate from the start, and which I don’t think is true.

KD345

ignorance is strength wrote: »

I don’t doubt your familiarity with the plans. But I was responding to your claim that “absolutely none” of the plans dealt with prioritising buses, which I understood to mean proposed alternates were inadequate from the start, and which I don’t think is true.

I guess it comes down to how you define adequate. You can put anything on a plan, make any amount of claims and throw in some fancy graphics, but if it’s not carried through then it’s meaningless. The minute DCC gave into the private car and reversed its Eden Quay decision it undid all of their bus priority measures on the north quays.