Teacher shortage - how are schools coping?

rainbowtrout

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Again. People are not going to sit at home waiting for a call . I would think people who become teachers want full time employment, not to be some type of stand by teacher. Isn't it the principles responsibility to coordinate this.

I don't know why people here are blaming the Government.

If you have FTE roles then recruitment is needed to fill the roles.

If you have activities to cover them the Principle should coordinate cover

You've clearly never worked in a school. There has always been casual subbing. Most of it is now covered in house, but there is work there for a sub, particular a newly qualified teacher who is trying to get experience and get their foot in the door. Many subs over the years in schools were the regular go-to for a school and would cover classes on a daily basis in the school for a large part of the year.

In a lot of cases that is how new teachers got their faces known and if there was a job going in their subject, they would have a good chance of getting it.

You can coordinate activities, we have a limit on how many activities can take place on a particular day, but you cannot coordinate sick cover on top of that. The flu that is going around at the moment has hit staff as well as students, and if even two teachers ring in sick that's potentially up to 18 extra classes that need to be covered that day on top of anything else that is going on. Notice for that might only be 15 minutes before school starts.

Recruitment: there are only a few places where jobs are advertised, graduates know where to find the jobs. There are simply not enough teachers out there. Graduates are not willing to fork out 12k in college fees and whatever their living expenses are for two years in college to qualify as a teacher on top of their degree. It has decimated the numbers applying to be teachers. This is having a knock on effect on the availability of subs and full time teachers.

My principal told me only this week that at a meeting the other day they were told that only four students are graduating in home economics this year. I don't have any evidence for that, but I'm going to assume that this is due to four year teacher training degrees moving from four to five years and having a year with no graduates. There is already severe shortages in home economics.

TheDriver

There's a few elephants in the room such as Sec under pressure because teachers won't get released or rare subject teachers getting denied career breaks because no one to replace them.
Forget about home ec or Irish, it's near impossible to get English or art(who would have thought this day would come) etc etc

mirrorwall14

Large schools generally have one or two NQTs on sub work, most of them will get full hours subbing across the week. It’s brilliant experience as an NQT and in the vast majority of cases those teachers become full time teachers or move onto full time positions after it

rainbowtrout

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

5 teachers out on Maternity leave?

Why do you think that is unusual. Newsflash: women have babies. And if you have a demographic in a school staff where a lot are in their 30s then a lot of maternity leaves coincide.

mirrorwall14

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You've clearly never worked in a school. There has always been casual subbing. Most of it is now covered in house, but there is work there for a sub, particular a newly qualified teacher who is trying to get experience and get their foot in the door. Many subs over the years in schools were the regular go-to for a school and would cover classes on a daily basis in the school for a large part of the year.

In a lot of cases that is how new teachers got their faces known and if there was a job going in their subject, they would have a good chance of getting it.

You can coordinate activities, we have a limit on how many activities can take place on a particular day, but you cannot coordinate sick cover on top of that. The flu that is going around at the moment has hit staff as well as students, and if even two teachers ring in sick that's potentially up to 18 extra classes that need to be covered that day on top of anything else that is going on. Notice for that might only be 15 minutes before school starts.

Recruitment: there are only a few places where jobs are advertised, graduates know where to find the jobs. There are simply not enough teachers out there. Graduates are not willing to fork out 12k in college fees and whatever their living expenses are for two years in college to qualify as a teacher on top of their degree. It has decimated the numbers applying to be teachers. This is having a knock on effect on the availability of subs and full time teachers.

My principal told me only this week that at a meeting the other day they were told that only four students are graduating in home economics this year. I don't have any evidence for that, but I'm going to assume that this is due to four year teacher training degrees moving from four to five years and having a year with no graduates. There is already severe shortages in home economics.

I know of massive discrepancies between the numbers going to graduate in different areas. Almost no maths, not a lot of science

Timistry

It appears things have changed drastically in a relatively short space of time! My bad

rainbowtrout

TheDriver wrote: »

There's a few elephants in the room such as Sec under pressure because teachers won't get released or rare subject teachers getting denied career breaks because no one to replace them.
Forget about home ec or Irish, it's near impossible to get English or art(who would have thought this day would come) etc etc

I actually never thought I'd see this day. Ever.

happywithlife

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Again. People are not going to sit at home waiting for a call . I would think people who become teachers want full time employment, not to be some type of stand by teacher. Isn't it the principles responsibility to coordinate this.

I don't know why people here are blaming the Government.

If you have FTE roles then recruitment is needed to fill the roles.

If you have activities to cover them the Principle should coordinate cover

Agree on first point - course teachers want as close to full hours as possible

Re blaming the gov - they have a role to play. Reduced pay inferior terms and conditions etc are a result of their policies how can they justify 'recovery' on one hand yet insist on retention of fempi on the other?

Some principals are better than others at coordination and some prefer to play teachers on less hours off against each other to encourage them to do extra ex posts etc in a school

HONKEY TONK

Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »

I don't think you understand how schools are run or what's involved with managing a school day to day. As for subbing, well, it's a requirement the world over and I can guarantee you we all did plenty of it to gain experience before getting a contract. As for recruitment and coordinating cover - have you any advice on how to successfully sort this within the remit of school budgets and allocations? Because principals and management bodies countrywide are all out of ideas.

Well it seems that Maternity leave and Sick day's are playing a major role with FTE teachers.

This should be reviewed because most people who get into careers are not stupid enough to hang around waiting for some short tram work when they can go off and get full time employment somewhere else.

rainbowtrout

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

There really needs to be a drive to get more men into teaching, if humanly possible. It won't be easy.

Less requirement for maternity leave. More stability on the roster.

If the boot was on the other foot (like STEM), there would be a definite State campaign to boost female participation.

Arguably. But it still doesn't sort out the problem that a couple of years ago there were over 2800 applicants to the PME and this year there are just over 1000 (from the link above). Women aren't applying for teaching either.

Graduates are looking for better opportunities in other sectors, aren't willing to pay 12k for the PME and those that do are heading abroad to make money.

TL17

rainbowtrout wrote:

You've clearly never worked in a school. There has always been casual subbing. Most of it is now covered in house, but there is work there for a sub, particular a newly qualified teacher who is trying to get experience and get their foot in the door. Many subs over the years in schools were the regular go-to for a school and would cover classes on a daily basis in the school for a large part of the year.

Not a great system. Abusing young graduates. Same as pay cuts to same group. Easy knowing they not waiting on end of phone for short term work. Need supply panels. And treat newbies with some respect. What other job would your ambition be few days at time

HONKEY TONK

happywithlife wrote: »

Agree on first point - course teachers want as close to full hours as possible

Re blaming the gov - they have a role to play. Reduced pay inferior terms and conditions etc are a result of their policies how can they justify 'recovery' on one hand yet insist on retention of fempi on the other?

Some principals are better than others at coordination and some prefer to play teachers on less hours off against each other to encourage them to do extra ex posts etc in a school

Can I ask. How long is maternity leave for teachers ?

rainbowtrout

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Well it seems that Maternity leave and Sick day's are playing a major role with FTE teachers.

This should be reviewed because most people who get into careers are not stupid enough to hang around waiting for some short tram work when they can go off and get full time employment somewhere else.

Nope. And you seem to be determined to find fault with teachers on this thread no matter what factual information is presented to you.

Most of those teachers in my staffroom are on their 2nd or 3rd baby. We've had one or two other years prior to this where we've had 5 maternity leaves at the same time and had no problem filling the positions, plenty of applicants, no problem getting short term or long term subs. There simply aren't enough graduating teachers, the ones that are graduating aren't hanging around ireland, and there aren't enough teachers to fill the vacancies that exist in schools. This is not a localised problem this is a country wide problem.

rainbowtrout

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Can I ask. How long is maternity leave for teachers ?

The same as every other woman in the country. 26 weeks.

rainbowtrout

TL17 wrote: »

Not a great system. Abusing young graduates. Same as pay cuts to same group. Easy knowing they not waiting on end of phone for short term work. Need supply panels. And treat newbies with some respect. What other job would your ambition be few days at time

It's not about abusing graduates. Where there has been an oversupply of teachers, the best/most experienced will get the jobs. New graduates - some get lucky and get a job straight off, some start off doing subbing. That experience usually leads to a job of their own.

Supply panels? There are no teachers to put on supply panels? And what exactly is the difference between using a teacher on a supply panel and using a teacher who is living locally and willing to come in at short notice?

HONKEY TONK

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Nope. And you seem to be determined to find fault with teachers on this thread no matter what factual information is presented to you.

Most of those teachers in my staffroom are on their 2nd or 3rd baby. We've had one or two other years prior to this where we've had 5 maternity leaves at the same time and had no problem filling the positions, plenty of applicants, no problem getting short term or long term subs. There simply aren't enough graduating teachers, the ones that are graduating aren't hanging around ireland, and there aren't enough teachers to fill the vacancies that exist in schools. This is not a localised problem this is a country wide problem.

You say vacancies. Are these FTE or just cover?

happywithlife

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Can I ask. How long is maternity leave for teachers ?

26 weeks straight
Actually shorter than private sector as they can tag holidays onto their mat leave where's teachers cannot

Not sure where you are going ? Are you suggesting teachers should not get maternity or sick leave? Judging by an earlier post?

happywithlife

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

You say vacancies. Are these FTE or just cover?

What do you mean by FTE? You keep mentioning it.

rainbowtrout

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

You say vacancies. Are these FTE or just cover?

Both.

evolving_doors

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Well it seems that Maternity leave and Sick day's are playing a major role with FTE teachers.

This should be reviewed because most people who get into careers are not stupid enough to hang around waiting for some short tram work when they can go off and get full time employment somewhere else.

I think you're getting it now :pac:

TL17

rainbowtrout wrote:

Supply panels? There are no teachers to put on supply panels? And what exactly is the difference between using a teacher on a supply panel and using a teacher who is living locally and willing to come in at short notice?

rainbowtrout wrote:

It's not about abusing graduates. Where there has been an oversupply of teachers, the best/most experienced will get the jobs. New graduates - some get lucky and get a job straight off, some start off doing subbing. That experience usually leads to a job of their own.

rainbowtrout wrote:

Supply panels? There are no teachers to put on supply panels? And what exactly is the difference between using a teacher on a supply panel and using a teacher who is living locally and willing to come in at short notice?

It all about abusing them. They worst affected by recession cuts. Unions hung them out to dry. How can a graduate live in urban area away from home on what they offered. Many voting with their feet. Know loads in middle east on 70 k tax free.
All schools emailed last week with this offer. 90 k for principals and promoted staff.

SligoBrewer

TL17 wrote: »

It all about abusing them. They worst affected by recession cuts. Unions hung them out to dry. How can a graduate live in urban area away from home on what they offered. Many voting with their feet. Know loads in middle east on 70 k tax free.
All schools emailed last week with this offer. 90 k for principals and promoted staff.

Show me the specific pay agreement where the unions hung us out to dry, because you have no idea what you're talking about other than parroting a narrative that you heard from someone else.

rainbowtrout

TL17 wrote: »

It all about abusing them. They worst affected by recession cuts. Unions hung them out to dry. How can a graduate live in urban area away from home on what they offered. Many voting with their feet. Know loads in middle east on 70 k tax free.
All schools emailed last week with this offer. 90 k for principals and promoted staff.

That's not how your original post read. I know that graduates are on lower pay, and I don't agree with it. It has been debated in this forum extensively and if you go back and read any of those threads in the last 5 years you will find that the regular posters on here don't agree with it.

However, the big drop in applicants didn't just come from pay cuts, while it obviously had an impact. Paycuts came in 2012 and we had no problem getting teachers for jobs until the last year or so. The two year PME is the final nail in the coffin. 12k for the PME is just beyond a lot of students and is not seen as worthwhile for the job.



On another note: We have always copied the English system and have always been about 15 years behind them. God knows why we copy it. We are currently in the midst of rolling out their failed system of assessment under the guise of the JC cycle. But we are also copying their recruitment problems. The value placed on teachers was decimated there 15-20 years ago and resulted in the shortages we are seeing here now. A number of teachers I work with went to England for a year (or more) after they graduated in the early 2000s. If they stayed teaching there for a minimum of one year they got a bonus, a golden hello, of £5000. So they went for the year and came home with £5k to put towards a mortgage deposit and a year of experience to get a job. We are now in the same position, a place Irish education has never been.

HONKEY TONK

happywithlife wrote: »

26 weeks straight
Actually shorter than private sector as they can tag holidays onto their mat leave where's teachers cannot

Not sure where you are going ? Are you suggesting teachers should not get maternity or sick leave? Judging by an earlier post?

Every company in the world has the same issue. I'm curious why the Government would be to blame when it comes to the teaching sector?

r93kaey5p2izun

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Well it seems that Maternity leave and Sick day's are playing a major role with FTE teachers.

This should be reviewed because most people who get into careers are not stupid enough to hang around waiting for some short tram work when they can go off and get full time employment somewhere else.

Maternity leave is a fact of life. Sick leave is not a significant factor in my school anyway outside this current flu outbreak.

As for going off to get work somewhere else well, I don't blame them given the deterioration in pay and conditions and the relentless attacks and denigration of the profession in this country. I'll be joining them at the end of the year and my school can add another Maths/Science position to their list of vacancies. If this is the crap we will be dealing with daily then I'm glad to be going.

SligoBrewer

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That's not how your original post read. I know that graduates are on lower pay, and I don't agree with it. It has been debated in this forum extensively and if you go back and read any of those threads in the last 5 years you will find that the regular posters on here don't agree with it.

However, the big drop in applicants didn't come from pay cuts, while it obviously had an impact. Paycuts came in 2012 and we had no problem getting teachers for jobs until the last year or so. The two year PME is the final nail in the coffin. 12k for the PME is just beyond a lot of students and is not seen as worthwhile for the job.

There's a lot of young teachers fed up waiting for equality who headed off to try and save for a mortgage. I'd call that a product of the payscales.

happywithlife

rainbowtrout wrote: »

My principal told me only this week that at a meeting the other day they were told that only four students are graduating in home economics this year. I don't have any evidence for that, but I'm going to assume that this is due to four year teacher training degrees moving from four to five years and having a year with no graduates. There is already severe shortages in home economics.

Well you can reassure him/her on that point. A quick goggle search confirmed 5 yr programme started in Sept 2015 so if my maths are right the last cohert of the 4yr BEd programme graduate this Sept but Sept 19 will see the shortfall ?

TL17

SligoBrewer wrote:

Show me the specific pay agreement where the unions hung us out to dry, because you have no idea what you're talking about other than parroting a narrative that you heard from someone else.

SligoBrewer wrote:

Show me the specific pay agreement where the unions hung us out to dry, because you have no idea what you're talking about other than parroting a narrative that you heard from someone else.

Withdrawal of qualification allowances for post 2012 teachers (loss of €4,918 per year with an honours degree

happywithlife

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Every company in the world has the same issue. I'm curious why the Government would be to blame when it comes to the teaching sector?

As I outlined before - look back over it. Not rewriting it now.

fergus1001

I'd love to become a teacher I currently have a BSc so id presumably be qualified to teach certain science subjects, here is where the problem starts the teaching council refuse to tell me outright if I can actually register for subjects x and y once I finish the ME, also the course was extended to two years instead of one thereby discouraging people to apply for it

I'm currently working in the private sector and would love to jump ship, but I'm being discouraged from doing so, how many more of me is out there I wonder ?!