Teacher shortage - how are schools coping?

r93kaey5p2izun

How are your schools coping with the shortage of teachers? Things are really falling apart in my school, so wondering how others are faring.

We're not doing too badly in terms of cover for maternity leave etc (though some classes don't have a qualified teacher for every class period in Irish, French and Maths), but we are in dire straits for day-to-day cover for shorter absences. All trips and events have been cancelled.We have absolutely nobody for some classes. They are being split up among other classes leaving us with 35+ in the room and it's seriously affecting teaching and learning. Some groups are left with just the teacher next door popping in and out to keep an eye which is far from ideal and is a pain when you're trying to get on with your own lessons. Everyone is reaching their S&S limit. The part time teachers are already doing over 22 hours and there's problems claiming for them so they're being asked to wait for payment til the following month.

It's really affecting the school, teachers and students alike. How are other schools managing?

TheDriver

Barely coping, barely. There's lots of work and no one to do it

rainbowtrout

Finding it hard to get subs in general. Irish is next to impossible, currently have a retired principal teaching Irish. Nothing wrong with that, but no active teachers available. German teachers are rare at the best of times, but struggle there too. Have a dip student currently in teaching maths, and another retired teacher in for music. Lucky to have them all really.

On top of that we have major problems with our ETB paying subs,sometimes 6-8 weeks and ridiculous issues that 'they can't be found in the system' even if they have subbed with us before, because someone has spelled their name wrong and they seem incapable of searching for them by school, pps number or any other identifier. One sub left before christmas as she wasn't being paid - the ETB then sent her a 15 page form that they said she must fill before she would get paid, so she said screw it, went to a neighbouring town worked the week in the school there and got paid on Friday.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Finding it hard to get subs in general. Irish is next to impossible, currently have a retired principal teaching Irish. Nothing wrong with that, but no active teachers available. German teachers are rare at the best of times, but struggle there too. Have a dip student currently in teaching maths, and another retired teacher in for music. Lucky to have them all really.

On top of that we have major problems with our ETB paying subs,sometimes 6-8 weeks and ridiculous issues that 'they can't be found in the system' even if they have subbed with us before, because someone has spelled their name wrong and they seem incapable of searching for them by school, pps number or any other identifier. One sub left before christmas as she wasn't being paid - the ETB then sent her a 15 page form that they said she must fill before she would get paid, so she said screw it, went to a neighbouring town worked the week in the school there and got paid on Friday.

Is everyone reaching the S&S quota soon,
What's the max hours again?
I've forgotten to keep track

If you kept doing the slots and your hours quota is full would you get the sub rate?

rainbowtrout

evolving_doors wrote: »

Is everyone reaching the S&S quota soon,
What's the max hours again?
I've forgotten to keep track

If you kept doing the slots and your hours quota is full would you get the sub rate?

I'm going to hit my quota soon. It's 43 hours. I do a break and lunch every week so that's 55 minutes. Even allowing for 32 weeks of that for the school year it amounts to about 29 hours. For the remaining 14 or so hours left for subbing classes I can do about 21 classes. I think as of this week I have about 15 done.

One of my slots is second class monday morning and I've been hit for it nearly every week. I don't think I've had that class free since about early-mid november.

mirrorwall14

We have had unqualified Irish teachers teaching full timetables from September to Christmas. Last year we had a Dip and unqualified in maths classes, the VP back in teaching maths and one group untaught for at least 6 weeks. Day to day we are coping with cover etc though I’m not sure if everyone has been counting their S and S

evolving_doors

I'm afraid everyone's mistaken. There's no shortage.

Fall in applications for key second-level teaching courses
Department of Education insists there is no overall problem with teacher supply

mirrorwall14

evolving_doors wrote: »

I'm afraid everyone's mistaken. There's no shortage.

Fall in applications for key second-level teaching courses
Department of Education insists there is no overall problem with teacher supply

Must have completely misinterpreted the unqualified ‘teachers’ in our school....

BorneTobyWilde

Hire taller teachers.

The_Valeyard

And their solution is to get rid of career breaks and reduce sick leave.....so discourage more people from entering the profession :rolleyes::rolleyes:

byhookorbycrook

And don't forget this one:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/plans-to-attract-homemakers-to-teaching-under-consideration-1.3263177

James Bond Junior

I've been denied two courses so far this year as we simply didn't have the man power to let me go nor space to safely split my class. This is primary. I can see it getting worse before it gets better. I can't imagine how hard secondary are coping.

r93kaey5p2izun

There is talk of TYs being told to stay at home for an afternoon or a day too. We have nobody to even stand in the room and supervise. It's a health and safety issue at this point, even aside from the impact on actual teaching and learning with classes of absent teachers not being taught and classes of other teachers being delayed and constantly interrupted to split up unattended groups, check the next door room, or try rearrange desks to squeeze in extra bodies.

I wonder about extra paid S&S when we reach our quota. Several teachers opted out in my school and many more would have if they had the choice. I don't think they will get many takers.

Timistry

Retired teachers should not be allowed teach. Once your out your out.

There are many newly qualified teachers that cant find work due to such policies.

rainbowtrout

Timistry wrote: »

Retired teachers should not be allowed teach. Once your out your out.

There are many newly qualified teachers that cant find work due to such policies.

Principal in my school rang a very long list of teachers to try and get subs for various subjects. ETB advertised some of the jobs up to four times without a single application. He was left with no choice but to hire retired teachers. It was that or leave the classes sit without a teacher for the next 5 months.

These weren't jobs for 4 or 5 hours either. They were 6 month maternity contracts on 17-22 hours.

judeboy101

Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »

How are your schools coping with the shortage of teachers? Things are really falling apart in my school, so wondering how others are faring.

We're not doing too badly in terms of cover for maternity leave etc (though some classes don't have a qualified teacher for every class period in Irish, French and Maths), but we are in dire straits for day-to-day cover for shorter absences. All trips and events have been cancelled.We have absolutely nobody for some classes. They are being split up among other classes leaving us with 35+ in the room and it's seriously affecting teaching and learning. Some groups are left with just the teacher next door popping in and out to keep an eye which is far from ideal and is a pain when you're trying to get on with your own lessons. Everyone is reaching their S&S limit. The part time teachers are already doing over 22 hours and there's problems claiming for them so they're being asked to wait for payment til the following month.

It's really affecting the school, teachers and students alike. How are other schools managing?

Every bom by law should have a H&s policy most of what you have said would violate that esp teacher "popping in" . Your bom rep can ask for a egm of bom where those issues are presented and if not immediately remedied by management school needs to be shut or only exam years in til fixed. Otherwise report anon to Tulsa, dept ed and joe Duffy.

Shaungoater

rainbowtrout wrote:

These weren't jobs for 4 or 5 hours either. They were 6 month maternity contracts on 17-22 hours.

rainbowtrout wrote:

Principal in my school rang a very long list of teachers to try and get subs for various subjects. ETB advertised some of the jobs up to four times without a single application. He was left with no choice but to hire retired teachers. It was that or leave the classes sit without a teacher for the next 5 months.

Our school in exactly the same way, can't even get an English teacher for 22 hours which was unheard of a year or so ago. Our deputy is taking four classes at a time in the main hall

man_no_plan

Timistry wrote: »

There are many newly qualified teachers that cant find work due to such policies.

Will you send me their names please, we have a full time role we haven't filled and I have rang about 50 teachers who are all employed.

Retired teachers shouldn't get first call but if there's nobody else to do it I don't think it's outrageous.

fade out

The_Valeyard wrote: »

And their solution is to get rid of career breaks and reduce sick leave.....so discourage more people from entering the profession :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I only heard a snippet on the news today about career breaks. Are they seriously considering bringing this in?? I’ve applied for mine after saving for 2 years to go travelling. Worried I won’t get it now.

Seannew1

Nothing will be done.
Only thing that will provoke a reaction from government: When there is no teacher, ring parents to come in and collect their kids and bring them home.

HONKEY TONK

Why would you need sub teachers. Where are the full time teachers who work in your schools?

happywithlife

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Why would you need sub teachers. Where are the full time teachers who work in your schools?

Seriously??
Teachers can get sick too you know
Hospital.appointments
Unavoidable family commitments
In service/ training days
Secondered to JCT etc
Out correcting with SEC

r93kaey5p2izun

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Why would you need sub teachers. Where are the full time teachers who work in your schools?

There's currently 4 out with flu, one hospitalised. That's unusual but with 80+ teachers there will always be some sick leave. But cover is needed for matches, trips, activities, teachers organising LCVP recordings, rehearsals etc. Programmes like TY and LCA in particular involve a lot of trips and events and teachers have to be freed up to accompany them.

Also some positions have not been filled. So somebody has to supervise those classes.

HONKEY TONK

happywithlife wrote: »

Seriously??
Teachers can get sick too you know
Hospital.appointments
Unavoidable family commitments
In service/ training days
Secondered to JCT etc
Out correcting with SEC

So you expect people to sit at home waiting for a call to get a day's work in the events listed above ?

rainbowtrout

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Why would you need sub teachers. Where are the full time teachers who work in your schools?

Ever heard of maternity leave? Sick leave? Kids being brought to football matches etc, and the classes of the accompanying teachers needing cover?

At one point in December we had 3 teachers leaving to go on maternity leave and a further 2 already out on maternity leave at that stage, as well as a teacher out with a long term illness.


And this is before the examination period kicks in with orals and practicals starting in March/April/May and teachers needing to be released for the exams.

happywithlife

I personally don't no
But short term casual subbing has always existed not sure what your problem is with that
Not all the above is short term either some would be longer term
Not quite sure where you're going/coming from with your posts?

HONKEY TONK

Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »

There's currently 4 out with flu, one hospitalised. That's unusual but with 80+ teachers there will always be some sick leave. But cover is needed for matches, trips, activities, teachers organising LCVP recordings, rehearsals etc. Programmes like TY and LCA in particular involve a lot of trips and events and teachers have to be freed up to accompany them.

Also some positions have not been filled. So somebody has to supervise those classes.

Again. People are not going to sit at home waiting for a call . I would think people who become teachers want full time employment, not to be some type of stand by teacher. Isn't it the principles responsibility to coordinate this.

I don't know why people here are blaming the Government.

If you have FTE roles then recruitment is needed to fill the roles.

If you have activities to cover them the Principle should coordinate cover

Jimbob1977

There really needs to be a drive to get more men into teaching, if humanly possible. It won't be easy.

Less requirement for maternity leave. More stability on the roster.

If the boot was on the other foot (like STEM), there would be a definite State campaign to boost female participation.

TheDriver

Timistry wrote: »

Retired teachers should not be allowed teach. Once your out your out.

There are many newly qualified teachers that cant find work due to such policies.

Oh my God, I must have been looking at the wrong list that I exhaust very quickly.

HONKEY TONK

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ever heard of maternity leave? Sick leave? Kids being brought to football matches etc, and the classes of the accompanying teachers needing cover?

At one point in December we had 3 teachers leaving to go on maternity leave and a further 2 already out on maternity leave at that stage, as well as a teacher out with a long term illness.


And this is before the examination period kicks in with orals and practicals starting in March/April/May and teachers needing to be released for the exams.

5 teachers out on Maternity leave?

r93kaey5p2izun

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Again. People are not going to sit at home waiting for a call . I would think people who become teachers want full time employment, not to be some type of stand by teacher. Isn't it the principles responsibility to coordinate this.

I don't know why people here are blaming the Government.

If you have FTE roles then recruitment is needed to fill the roles.

If you have activities to cover them the Principle should coordinate cover

I don't think you understand how schools are run or what's involved with managing a school day to day. As for subbing, well, it's a requirement the world over and I can guarantee you we all did plenty of it to gain experience before getting a contract. As for recruitment and coordinating cover - have you any advice on how to successfully sort this within the remit of school budgets and allocations? Because principals and management bodies countrywide are all out of ideas.

rainbowtrout

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Again. People are not going to sit at home waiting for a call . I would think people who become teachers want full time employment, not to be some type of stand by teacher. Isn't it the principles responsibility to coordinate this.

I don't know why people here are blaming the Government.

If you have FTE roles then recruitment is needed to fill the roles.

If you have activities to cover them the Principle should coordinate cover

You've clearly never worked in a school. There has always been casual subbing. Most of it is now covered in house, but there is work there for a sub, particular a newly qualified teacher who is trying to get experience and get their foot in the door. Many subs over the years in schools were the regular go-to for a school and would cover classes on a daily basis in the school for a large part of the year.

In a lot of cases that is how new teachers got their faces known and if there was a job going in their subject, they would have a good chance of getting it.

You can coordinate activities, we have a limit on how many activities can take place on a particular day, but you cannot coordinate sick cover on top of that. The flu that is going around at the moment has hit staff as well as students, and if even two teachers ring in sick that's potentially up to 18 extra classes that need to be covered that day on top of anything else that is going on. Notice for that might only be 15 minutes before school starts.

Recruitment: there are only a few places where jobs are advertised, graduates know where to find the jobs. There are simply not enough teachers out there. Graduates are not willing to fork out 12k in college fees and whatever their living expenses are for two years in college to qualify as a teacher on top of their degree. It has decimated the numbers applying to be teachers. This is having a knock on effect on the availability of subs and full time teachers.

My principal told me only this week that at a meeting the other day they were told that only four students are graduating in home economics this year. I don't have any evidence for that, but I'm going to assume that this is due to four year teacher training degrees moving from four to five years and having a year with no graduates. There is already severe shortages in home economics.

TheDriver

There's a few elephants in the room such as Sec under pressure because teachers won't get released or rare subject teachers getting denied career breaks because no one to replace them.
Forget about home ec or Irish, it's near impossible to get English or art(who would have thought this day would come) etc etc

mirrorwall14

Large schools generally have one or two NQTs on sub work, most of them will get full hours subbing across the week. It’s brilliant experience as an NQT and in the vast majority of cases those teachers become full time teachers or move onto full time positions after it

rainbowtrout

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

5 teachers out on Maternity leave?

Why do you think that is unusual. Newsflash: women have babies. And if you have a demographic in a school staff where a lot are in their 30s then a lot of maternity leaves coincide.

mirrorwall14

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You've clearly never worked in a school. There has always been casual subbing. Most of it is now covered in house, but there is work there for a sub, particular a newly qualified teacher who is trying to get experience and get their foot in the door. Many subs over the years in schools were the regular go-to for a school and would cover classes on a daily basis in the school for a large part of the year.

In a lot of cases that is how new teachers got their faces known and if there was a job going in their subject, they would have a good chance of getting it.

You can coordinate activities, we have a limit on how many activities can take place on a particular day, but you cannot coordinate sick cover on top of that. The flu that is going around at the moment has hit staff as well as students, and if even two teachers ring in sick that's potentially up to 18 extra classes that need to be covered that day on top of anything else that is going on. Notice for that might only be 15 minutes before school starts.

Recruitment: there are only a few places where jobs are advertised, graduates know where to find the jobs. There are simply not enough teachers out there. Graduates are not willing to fork out 12k in college fees and whatever their living expenses are for two years in college to qualify as a teacher on top of their degree. It has decimated the numbers applying to be teachers. This is having a knock on effect on the availability of subs and full time teachers.

My principal told me only this week that at a meeting the other day they were told that only four students are graduating in home economics this year. I don't have any evidence for that, but I'm going to assume that this is due to four year teacher training degrees moving from four to five years and having a year with no graduates. There is already severe shortages in home economics.

I know of massive discrepancies between the numbers going to graduate in different areas. Almost no maths, not a lot of science

Timistry

It appears things have changed drastically in a relatively short space of time! My bad

rainbowtrout

TheDriver wrote: »

There's a few elephants in the room such as Sec under pressure because teachers won't get released or rare subject teachers getting denied career breaks because no one to replace them.
Forget about home ec or Irish, it's near impossible to get English or art(who would have thought this day would come) etc etc

I actually never thought I'd see this day. Ever.

happywithlife

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Again. People are not going to sit at home waiting for a call . I would think people who become teachers want full time employment, not to be some type of stand by teacher. Isn't it the principles responsibility to coordinate this.

I don't know why people here are blaming the Government.

If you have FTE roles then recruitment is needed to fill the roles.

If you have activities to cover them the Principle should coordinate cover

Agree on first point - course teachers want as close to full hours as possible

Re blaming the gov - they have a role to play. Reduced pay inferior terms and conditions etc are a result of their policies how can they justify 'recovery' on one hand yet insist on retention of fempi on the other?

Some principals are better than others at coordination and some prefer to play teachers on less hours off against each other to encourage them to do extra ex posts etc in a school

HONKEY TONK

Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »

I don't think you understand how schools are run or what's involved with managing a school day to day. As for subbing, well, it's a requirement the world over and I can guarantee you we all did plenty of it to gain experience before getting a contract. As for recruitment and coordinating cover - have you any advice on how to successfully sort this within the remit of school budgets and allocations? Because principals and management bodies countrywide are all out of ideas.

Well it seems that Maternity leave and Sick day's are playing a major role with FTE teachers.

This should be reviewed because most people who get into careers are not stupid enough to hang around waiting for some short tram work when they can go off and get full time employment somewhere else.

rainbowtrout

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

There really needs to be a drive to get more men into teaching, if humanly possible. It won't be easy.

Less requirement for maternity leave. More stability on the roster.

If the boot was on the other foot (like STEM), there would be a definite State campaign to boost female participation.

Arguably. But it still doesn't sort out the problem that a couple of years ago there were over 2800 applicants to the PME and this year there are just over 1000 (from the link above). Women aren't applying for teaching either.

Graduates are looking for better opportunities in other sectors, aren't willing to pay 12k for the PME and those that do are heading abroad to make money.

TL17

rainbowtrout wrote:

You've clearly never worked in a school. There has always been casual subbing. Most of it is now covered in house, but there is work there for a sub, particular a newly qualified teacher who is trying to get experience and get their foot in the door. Many subs over the years in schools were the regular go-to for a school and would cover classes on a daily basis in the school for a large part of the year.

Not a great system. Abusing young graduates. Same as pay cuts to same group. Easy knowing they not waiting on end of phone for short term work. Need supply panels. And treat newbies with some respect. What other job would your ambition be few days at time

HONKEY TONK

happywithlife wrote: »

Agree on first point - course teachers want as close to full hours as possible

Re blaming the gov - they have a role to play. Reduced pay inferior terms and conditions etc are a result of their policies how can they justify 'recovery' on one hand yet insist on retention of fempi on the other?

Some principals are better than others at coordination and some prefer to play teachers on less hours off against each other to encourage them to do extra ex posts etc in a school

Can I ask. How long is maternity leave for teachers ?

rainbowtrout

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Well it seems that Maternity leave and Sick day's are playing a major role with FTE teachers.

This should be reviewed because most people who get into careers are not stupid enough to hang around waiting for some short tram work when they can go off and get full time employment somewhere else.

Nope. And you seem to be determined to find fault with teachers on this thread no matter what factual information is presented to you.

Most of those teachers in my staffroom are on their 2nd or 3rd baby. We've had one or two other years prior to this where we've had 5 maternity leaves at the same time and had no problem filling the positions, plenty of applicants, no problem getting short term or long term subs. There simply aren't enough graduating teachers, the ones that are graduating aren't hanging around ireland, and there aren't enough teachers to fill the vacancies that exist in schools. This is not a localised problem this is a country wide problem.

rainbowtrout

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Can I ask. How long is maternity leave for teachers ?

The same as every other woman in the country. 26 weeks.

rainbowtrout

TL17 wrote: »

Not a great system. Abusing young graduates. Same as pay cuts to same group. Easy knowing they not waiting on end of phone for short term work. Need supply panels. And treat newbies with some respect. What other job would your ambition be few days at time

It's not about abusing graduates. Where there has been an oversupply of teachers, the best/most experienced will get the jobs. New graduates - some get lucky and get a job straight off, some start off doing subbing. That experience usually leads to a job of their own.

Supply panels? There are no teachers to put on supply panels? And what exactly is the difference between using a teacher on a supply panel and using a teacher who is living locally and willing to come in at short notice?

HONKEY TONK

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Nope. And you seem to be determined to find fault with teachers on this thread no matter what factual information is presented to you.

Most of those teachers in my staffroom are on their 2nd or 3rd baby. We've had one or two other years prior to this where we've had 5 maternity leaves at the same time and had no problem filling the positions, plenty of applicants, no problem getting short term or long term subs. There simply aren't enough graduating teachers, the ones that are graduating aren't hanging around ireland, and there aren't enough teachers to fill the vacancies that exist in schools. This is not a localised problem this is a country wide problem.

You say vacancies. Are these FTE or just cover?

happywithlife

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Can I ask. How long is maternity leave for teachers ?

26 weeks straight
Actually shorter than private sector as they can tag holidays onto their mat leave where's teachers cannot

Not sure where you are going ? Are you suggesting teachers should not get maternity or sick leave? Judging by an earlier post?

happywithlife

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

You say vacancies. Are these FTE or just cover?

What do you mean by FTE? You keep mentioning it.

rainbowtrout

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

You say vacancies. Are these FTE or just cover?

Both.

evolving_doors

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Well it seems that Maternity leave and Sick day's are playing a major role with FTE teachers.

This should be reviewed because most people who get into careers are not stupid enough to hang around waiting for some short tram work when they can go off and get full time employment somewhere else.

I think you're getting it now :pac: