UFC 220 - Miocic Vs Ngannou

akelly02

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

Jon Jones for me is one of the greatest athletes to ever compete in the UFC. While his technique is also very good and he has a range of tools, it was his freakish strength (in spite of his lanky frame) and his endurance which made him so hard to beat. His strength in the clinch is second to none. And his endurance won him his two toughest fights - v Gus and DC first time round, where he dominated the final 2-3 rounds to get the decision.

For those reasons, I can't consider JBJ one of the best, because without his physical capabilities he wouldn't have been near as dominant imo.

and the steroids? no great mention of them?

CurryFlavoured

akelly02 wrote: »

and the steroids? no great mention of them?

That's exactly what I'm talking about - they enhanced his physical capabilities. I thought I made that obvious

LollipopJimmy

akelly02 wrote: »

and the steroids? no great mention of them?

My reading of the last line says otherwise

The Nal

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

That's exactly what I'm talking about - they enhanced his physical capabilities. I thought I made that obvious

Which is why hes not in the "greatest" conversation. Hes out. Could be just a fairly decent juiced up fighter for all we know. Maybe he would've tapped or had his arm snapped by Vitor if he wasn't juicing.

Vitor is also a cheat I know.

Subcomandante Marcos

Miocic via Submission

The Nal wrote: »

Which is why hes not in the "greatest" conversation. Hes out.

Nonsense. Regardless of his use of PED's or how long it's been going on for he's still absolutely one of the pound for pound greatest fighters of all time.
PED's don't make you a JUCO National Champion, PED's don't make you a 24 year old world LHW champion. They're factor but they're not the biggest factor, by a long way.

Fromvert

What was the deal with Ngannou's corner wrapping him in a towel between rounds, was anything said about it on the commentary or after the fight? I couldn't really hear the commentary and didn't see the presser.

Surely this is counterproductive, his body is trying to cool down and he's being wrapped in a towel! And Rogan running with the 'he only strikes in training, no grappling' makes it seem like the whole team is full of people with no clue.

Subcomandante Marcos

Miocic via Submission

Ngannou needs to tell his coach that from now on, he's his striking coach and nothing else. He's clearly doing a decent job at that so no point throwing the baby out with the bath water but he needs to being in someone with a history and understanding of MMA. He also needs to spend about 6 months getting absolutely mauled by some D1 collegiate and US international team wrestlers so he can learn how to defend takedowns and get back up if he's taken down.

thewheel2.0

Fromvert wrote: »

What was the deal with Ngannou's corner wrapping him in a towel between rounds, was anything said about it on the commentary or after the fight? I couldn't really hear the commentary and didn't see the presser.

Surely this is counterproductive, his body is trying to cool down and he's being wrapped in a towel! And Rogan running with the 'he only strikes in training, no grappling' makes it seem like the whole team is full of people with no clue.

I read somewhere that the towels were soaked in ice water. Weirdly though the towels were branded Body Armour, which is the official sports drink of the UFC and Francis is one of their three representatives.

The other two representatives are Cody Garbrandt and Cynthia Calvillo so Francis was the final one to suffer the Body Armor curse.

CurryFlavoured

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Nonsense. Regardless of his use of PED's or how long it's been going on for he's still absolutely one of the pound for pound greatest fighters of all time.
PED's don't make you a JUCO National Champion, PED's don't make you a 24 year old world LHW champion. They're factor but they're not the biggest factor, by a long way.

I really disagree. Taking PEDs that could give him an extra 10-15% are absolutely a big factor. The biggest factor probably not but you're underestimating the influence of PEDs. Particularly for the reasons I gave above - he's one of the greatest athletes the UFC has ever seen. Coincidence much???

I don't consider JBJ in the greatest list because (imo) he has probably been dirty his whole career.

CurryFlavoured

I don't understand the argument - oh but PEDs don't make you a champion!

Eh, they kind of help. A lot if it's being done consistently and systematically. As it did with Armstrong, Ben Johnson, and MMA fighters like Jones and Sonnen (remember his meteoric rise to fame? You could almost say that there was a link between him taking PEDs and going from top 20 to championship material!). Similarly, and I know these guys haven't been caught, but look at the downfall of Hendricks and Pettis post-USADA. It's like looking at a completely different fighter - from championship calibre to top 15-20. I think we all know that Hendricks in particular was up to no good.

The reality is that, yes technique is a big part of the sport as well, but you need both. Show me an average athlete with excellent technique who's become a champion in MMA - it's more than a bit rare. Having excellent physical qualities is just as important as excelling in the technical aspects of fighting.

Again, for those reasons Jones gets cut out of my list when discussing the greatest ever.

The White Feather

DC via Submission

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

Again, for those reasons Jones gets cut out of my list when discussing the greatest ever.

I would think the same way as you about Jones. No doubting he is/was a hell of a fighter but how long was he on PEDs? This would rule him out of being the goat in my view.

Incidentally do PEDS come curry flavoured?!! Just a thought!

Mellor

DC via Submission

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

That's exactly what I'm talking about - they enhanced his physical capabilities. I thought I made that obvious

I thought it was clear FWIW

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Nonsense. Regardless of his use of PED's or how long it's been going on for he's still absolutely one of the pound for pound greatest fighters of all time.
PED's don't make you a JUCO National Champion, PED's don't make you a 24 year old world LHW champion. They're factor but they're not the biggest factor, by a long way.

Exactly.

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

I don't understand the argument - oh but PEDs don't make you a champion!

Eh, they kind of help. A lot if it's being done consistently and systematically. As it did with Armstrong, Ben Johnson, and MMA fighters like Jones and Sonnen (remember his meteoric rise to fame? You could almost say that there was a link between him taking PEDs and going from top 20 to championship material!). Similarly, and I know these guys haven't been caught, but look at the downfall of Hendricks and Pettis post-USADA. It's like looking at a completely different fighter - from championship calibre to top 15-20. I think we all know that Hendricks in particular was up to no good.

The reality is that, yes technique is a big part of the sport as well, but you need both. Show me an average athlete with excellent technique who's become a champion in MMA - it's more than a bit rare. Having excellent physical qualities is just as important as excelling in the technical aspects of fighting.

Again, for those reasons Jones gets cut out of my list when discussing the greatest ever.

The PEDs make him a cheater. Nobody disputes that.
The PEDs give him an edge in the physical aspect . Again no disputes.
I have no idea why people can't separate that from technique?

It's not about how effective he is in the clinch, or how devastating his punches are when they connect. For me it's about the things he sees that no other fighter sees. PEDs don't do that.

I wanted to stick a GIF in here of the foot sweep he hit on a retreating Cormier in the last night. But can't find it.

chopperbyrne

Mellor wrote: »

I wanted to stick a GIF in here of the foot sweep he hit on a retreating Cormier in the last night. But can't find it.

Would he have hit it without years of PED use?

Would his twitch reaction speed have been good enough?

The Nal

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Nonsense. Regardless of his use of PED's or how long it's been going on for he's still absolutely one of the pound for pound greatest fighters of all time.
PED's don't make you a JUCO National Champion, PED's don't make you a 24 year old world LHW champion. They're factor but they're not the biggest factor, by a long way.

Strongly disagree. PED's can make you a 24 year old world LHW champion. Course they can!

Again, people seem to underestimate how much of an impact anabolic steroids can have.





Sad thing is, most of the great MMA fighters are cheats. Proper Lance Armstrong levels of cheats. The sport is in a state when it comes to credibility. Cycling aside, can't think of a sport with worse cred than MMA. Bit of a joke tbh.

mailburner

DC via Decision

such a shame rumble has retired, would have given anything to see him and ngannou square up.
It was the first thought I had after the bout.

Subcomandante Marcos

Miocic via Submission

Every single sport on the planet is riddled with people using PEDs, if you think otherwise you're being willfully ignorant.

Cycling and athletics aren't the worst offenders, they're just the most tested.

In cycling in Ireland alone last year there was 405 tests for a sport with only 15 professional athletes representing in country, most of whom dont even live on Ireland.
There were 105 tests in rugby, a sport with over 150 professional player in Ireland and thousands of amateurs.
Same with soccer and even GAA, people can go their entire careers without ever being tested to the point that Joe Hart had a whinge on twitter about the fact that he had to do his first ever ped test after a game when he was 28 because it inconvenienced him.
American athletes in sports like the NFL and NBA never pop because they literally get notice that they're going to be tested because their players unions and the leagues agreed to it.

Cycling and athletics have bad "reps" but they're not actually worse than other sports, they're just more targeted because of perception.

Subcomandante Marcos

Miocic via Submission

mailburner wrote: »

such a shame rumble has retired, would have given anything to see him and ngannou square up.
It was the first thought I had after the bout.

The what you smoking. The size difference would be insane, Rumble would be murdered.

mailburner

DC via Decision

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

The what you smoking. The size difference would be insane, Rumble would be murdered.

He fought at heavyweight, could do so again and would be as big as a lot
of heavyweights.
rumble is a killer also and probably only second to ngannou standing but with quicker hands.
I'm sure plenty would like to see the two of them
I've never seen rumble in any kind of trouble standing against anyone.

CurryFlavoured

Mellor wrote: »

I thought it was clear FWIW


Exactly.

The PEDs make him a cheater. Nobody disputes that.
The PEDs give him an edge in the physical aspect . Again no disputes.
I have no idea why people can't separate that from technique?

It's not about how effective he is in the clinch, or how devastating his punches are when they connect. For me it's about the things he sees that no other fighter sees. PEDs don't do that.

I wanted to stick a GIF in here of the foot sweep he hit on a retreating Cormier in the last night. But can't find it.

Of course I see the technique. But technique alone won't make you the goat - it's a mix of brain and brawn. Jones was a phenomenal athlete and that was part of what gave him an enormous advantage.

It's all pieces of the puzzle. Jones' physical advantage isn't the whole puzzle, but it's a significant piece.

CurryFlavoured

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Every single sport on the planet is riddled with people using PEDs, if you think otherwise you're being willfully ignorant.

Cycling and athletics aren't the worst offenders, they're just the most tested.

In cycling in Ireland alone last year there was 405 tests for a sport with only 15 professional athletes representing in country, most of whom dont even live on Ireland.
There were 105 tests in rugby, a sport with over 150 professional player in Ireland and thousands of amateurs.
Same with soccer and even GAA, people can go their entire careers without ever being tested to the point that Joe Hart had a whinge on twitter about the fact that he had to do his first ever ped test after a game when he was 28 because it inconvenienced him.
American athletes in sports like the NFL and NBA never pop because they literally get notice that they're going to be tested because their players unions and the leagues agreed to it.

Cycling and athletics have bad "reps" but they're not actually worse than other sports, they're just more targeted because of perception.

I don't really understand your point. Is it that Jones retains his legacy because you think that everyone else was cheating too?

There are most definitely guys who cheat and haven't been caught (yet), but to say it's riddled with PEDs is a bit disingenuous. How could you possibly know that?

Could guys like DC, Gus, Rumble be using..I guess they could be, but it's unfair to tarnish them for an obvious reason. Jon Jones has popped while they have not.

Subcomandante Marcos

Miocic via Submission

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

I don't really understand your point. Is it that Jones retains his legacy because you think that everyone else was cheating too?

There are most definitely guys who cheat and haven't been caught (yet), but to say it's riddled with PEDs is a bit disingenuous. How could you possibly know that?

Could guys like DC, Gus, Rumble be using..I guess they could be, but it's unfair to tarnish them for an obvious reason. Jon Jones has popped while they have not.

Do you consider Bolt the best sprinter of all time? Because he's almost certainly a cheater. His strength and conditioning coach was a BALCO chemist who supplied countless basketball, american football, soccer and rugby players with designer PED's as well as track and field athletes, don't believe me, google Heredia's interview with Der Spiegel in 2008.

CurryFlavoured

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Do you consider Bolt the best sprinter of all time? Because he's almost certainly a cheater. His strength and conditioning coach was a BALCO chemist who supplied countless basketball, american football, soccer and rugby players with designer PED's as well as track and field athletes, don't believe me, google Heredia's interview with Der Spiegel in 2008.

You've slightly gone off on a tangent. Assuming you're right, which there's no hard proof of but I will admit there's a good likelihood, I still don't really see your point in relation to mine.

My point is that Jones has had a significant unfair advantage over his opponents through his cheating. There's no evidence to suggest that his opponents had been cheating in a similar manner. Do you not agree?

Subcomandante Marcos

Miocic via Submission

My point is you're making an emotional argument based on your own notions of fairness or honour.
Jones hasn't even been found guilty of doping yet and you're claiming everything he's achieved is because of his alleged PED use.

I'm saying that if he cheated it enhanced his fighting but he'd still be the best 205er ever with or without PEDs. PED's don't make him a better positionally aware wrestler, a more skilful submission artist, a more intelligent or accurate striker. They'd make him stronger, sure. Faster, maybe. Better endurance, yeah. But without already being one of the best on the planet those augmentations mean nothing.

The Nal

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Jones hasn't even been found guilty of doping yet

Huh?

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

I'm saying that if he cheated it enhanced his fighting but he'd still be the best 205er ever with or without PEDs. PED's don't make him a better positionally aware wrestler, a more skilful submission artist, a more intelligent or accurate striker. They'd make him stronger, sure. Faster, maybe. Better endurance, yeah. But without already being one of the best on the planet those augmentations mean nothing.

WTF? Its more difficult to position yourself correctly when you're tired, strikes aren't as accurate if you're tired, submissions aren't as effective if you're tired.

Subcomandante Marcos

Miocic via Submission

The Nal wrote: »

Huh?

He hasn't been, the findings from his previous case were that "the arbitration panel concluded that Jones didn't take the banned substances intentionally and was not a drug cheat".

CurryFlavoured

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

My point is you're making an emotional argument based on your own notions of fairness or honour.
Jones hasn't even been found guilty of doping yet and you're claiming everything he's achieved is because of his alleged PED use.

I'm saying that if he cheated it enhanced his fighting but he'd still be the best 205er ever with or without PEDs. PED's don't make him a better positionally aware wrestler, a more skilful submission artist, a more intelligent or accurate striker. They'd make him stronger, sure. Faster, maybe. Better endurance, yeah. But without already being one of the best on the planet those augmentations mean nothing.

Mate you're sounding like an apologist. He failed a test for a PED (actually two tests) - I think it's fair at this point to say that he's a cheater. We know that turanibol was in his body. You can't say that he's not because they're putting forward a 'tainted supplement' case again :rolleyes:

And you're putting words in my mouth. I never said the PEDs are everything, but I said they're a significant part of the puzzle. They're one factor of what made him so good, but they gave him a significant unfair advantage regardless.

On your suggestion that he'd be the greatest regardless of cheating, that's just conjecture. We'll never know, maybe he would have, maybe he wouldn't, you're entitled to that opinion but I don't think that it holds much weight. All we know for now is that he used illegal substances to give himself a significant physical advantage.

The Nal

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

He hasn't been, the findings from his previous case were that "the arbitration panel concluded that Jones didn't take the banned substances intentionally and was not a drug cheat".

Amazing the amount of young healthy people in need of dick pills isn't it? Anderson Silvas go to excuse.

Lukker-

Funny coincidence for Jones that the steroid he tested positive for was on the same order as his dick pills.

Effects

Fromvert wrote: »

What was the deal with Ngannou's corner wrapping him in a towel between rounds

Making sure the sponsorship message was seen clearly.

Mellor

DC via Submission

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

Of course I see the technique. But technique alone won't make you the goat - it's a mix of brain and brawn. Jones was a phenomenal athlete and that was part of what gave him an enormous advantage.

It's all pieces of the puzzle. Jones' physical advantage isn't the whole puzzle, but it's a significant piece.

I'm not disregarding the difference athleticism makes. But I see that as an advantage in a fight, in terms of performance.
For example, say I roll with a big blue belt who is stronger than me, then I roll with a high experience belt who is smaller than me. They'll both give me an equally hard time. But afterwards, I feel I couldn't unquestionable state that the purple belt was more technical. More skillful.
Does that make sense?

I don't think Jones is/was one of the best because of his results, performances, or because he could physically pull off athletic the moves. It was more the way he was hardwired to even attempt them. If somebody else was as athletic and strong as Jones, they probably would do any of that stuff.

Compare that to Ngannou. Devastating power and speed. But that's about it. There's nothing technically impressive about his striking. He loads up and wings it, if it connects it's goodnight. If somebody else had that power, they could probably pull off those KOs.

The Nal wrote: »

WTF? Its more difficult to position yourself correctly when you're tired, strikes aren't as accurate if you're tired, submissions aren't as effective if you're tired.

You are still huge up on performances and trying to make the point that steroids make a difference. That is completely true, but nobody has disputed that.