Addicts / Abusers and women

pilly

professore wrote: »

If that's true, why don't they pick a fat unpopular nerd? Not buying it.

Why are all addicts slim and good looking now? What?

GingerLily

NI24 wrote: »

I have to respectfully disagree. In my experience, men are much less likely to tolerate addiction or abusive tendencies in women.

What experience is this?

All the evidence suggests that the number of men in abusive relationships is similar to women (some sources suggest more) , particularly emotional abuse.

c.p.w.g.w

Hector Savage wrote: »

The un PC answer is ... women love bastards.

Simple really.

https://youtu.be/kOwTF_i6zOc

Widdershins

professore wrote: »

If that's true, why don't they pick a fat unpopular nerd? Not buying it.

Well some do. But there you have it, physical attraction is part of love, or essential for a physical relationship, for a lot of women. I have questioned whether I'd love the man I love if he was ugly. I feel mean and it seems to cheapen the idea of love but that's the way it is.

I know I'd still love him if his face became disfigured, but somehow it's different.

This kind of answers the question in the OP too. They fancy the pants off them physically and maybe their wildness is part of the attraction.

And they don't tend to treat the woman badly in the beginning.

RDM_83 again

seamus wrote: »

There are probably as many people of both sexes living with a partner who is suffering an addiction or who is emotionally or physically abusive.

The notion of being able to "fix" the other goes both ways, it's not just a silly woman's ideal - the victim stills sees flashes of the person they fell in love with and believe that with time they can back to where they were.

You also have a "better the devil you know" attitude where someone feels that having a partner that they know and who is occasionally decent, is better than being alone and having no partner at all.

Social pressures too - many people don't want to face the questions and the discussion. They would rather stick out a bad relationship than have to admit to friends, family and their church group that their relationship has failed.

Financial pressure - if the abuser is the breadwinner, this is a big one. How do you leave when you don't have a penny to your name?

Plain old fear - 75% of women murdered by a spouse or partner are murdered when they have made plans to leave or have just left. So in many respects leaving is not the end of the abuse. Leaving is the beginning of the worst and is when an abuser will really show their claws. So a victim, as anyone would, will try to pick the road which doesn't involve having to fight for their life.

Yes but that doesn't explain why it appears (some) women, who after all the cliche is have a greater emotional intelligence and better at picking up non verbal signs. Seem to ignore or be attracted to men/boys with issues that are obvious to neutral parties.
Men do the same thing but it's generally more obviously explained e.g she is hot or they aren't normally good with woman.

Clearly not talking about all woman but it definitely seems to be a thing for girls aged 16 to maybe 20-24 and some never grow out of it, I just don't think there is an equivalent thing for guys to the same extent

Staying with an abuser is a whole different discussion really to people who seek out "bad boys"

mariaalice

They can be conditioned in to it they were brought up in a family with an alcoholic parent or they were raised by two people who were in an abusive relationship, constant promises to change, drama ect seems normal to them.

eviltwin

Low self esteem would be a factor too. We accept the treatment we think we deserve.

Stonedpilot

Yet ANOTHER biased thread against men.
Like a extreme feminist rally here these days.

I have seen it the other way around too. Abusive women dogging kind, gentle caring men. Physical mental and emotional torture.

Its simple the womens and mens reasons are their own.

Pointless saying diatribe crap like "daddy issues" or "need to fix em" etc

cantdecide

Erin Pizzey, who set up the world's first women's refuge in London in the 70s, regularly makes the point about the generational aspect of domestic violence having herself grown up in violent house.

GingerLily

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Yet ANOTHER biased thread against men.
Like a extreme feminist rally here these days.

I have seen it the other way around too. Abusive women dogging kind, gentle caring men. Physical mental and emotional torture.

Its simple the womens and mens reasons are their own.

Pointless saying diatribe crap like "daddy issues" or "need to fix em" etc

Its equally offensive to women if you read the contributions from some posters....

professore

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Yet ANOTHER biased thread against men.
Like a extreme feminist rally here these days.

I have seen it the other way around too. Abusive women dogging kind, gentle caring men. Physical mental and emotional torture.

Its simple the womens and mens reasons are their own.

Pointless saying diatribe crap like "daddy issues" or "need to fix em" etc

I was worried it would be seen to be biased against women ...

Wibbs

cantdecide wrote: »

Erin Pizzey, who set up the world's first women's refuge in London in the 70s,

it actually became a refuge for all victims of domestic abuse, including men(and the victims kids). This actually got her into trouble down the line as she suggested that much domestic violence was a two way street and women could be just as abusive as men. The militant types freaked out at this and she even got death threats over it and in the end she was banned from the refuges she founded. Mad.

coffee_cake

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Yet ANOTHER biased thread against men.
Like a extreme feminist rally here these days.

Are you on the wrong thread

erica74

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Yet ANOTHER biased thread against men.
Like a extreme feminist rally here these days.

I have seen it the other way around too. Abusive women dogging kind, gentle caring men. Physical mental and emotional torture.

Its simple the womens and mens reasons are their own.

Pointless saying diatribe crap like "daddy issues" or "need to fix em" etc

In all fairness, as the thread has progressed on from the opening post, many posters have mentioned that abuse occurs in both sexes against both sexes.

Stonedpilot

erica74 wrote: »

In all fairness, as the thread has progressed on from the opening post, many posters have mentioned that abuse occurs in both sexes against both sexes.

Fair enough but nice to have some balance once in a while, the incessant man bashing and bias against men on this can get tiresome.

Stonedpilot

cantdecide wrote: »

Erin Pizzey, who set up the world's first women's refuge in London in the 70s, regularly makes the point about the generational aspect of domestic violence having herself grown up in violent house.

Erin is a wonderful woman, When she wrote her book Prone to Violence that showed women can be terribly physically violent and abusive too such was the extent of hatred from feminist organizations and death threats to her life she had to leave the UK and live abroad. This level of hostility against a lady who has dedicated her life to helping abuse victims.

Extraordinary.

valoren

There is a world of difference between say an ambitious, self absorbed, self-centered, workaholic and arrogant arsehole, basically someone who has their **** together yet doesn't give a ****, too self obsessed to notice or care and an abusive, feckless addict, a complete loser who hits women. While you could argue that women might find the former a challenge or a sexy bastard who makes them go weak at the knees, I fail to see as with the OP what exactly is a turn on or might give a woman tingles about getting punched and verbally abused by some scobe.

GingerLily

There are so many generalisations on this thread with no basis, I think a lot of people in this thread are only interested in why ATTRACTIVE women go out with assholes who are abusive, they aren't really interested in the rest of relationship abuse in society.....

mariaalice

The question was why do women stay with abusive men, it would be equally valid to ask why men stay with abusive woman or why people both men an women stay in abusive relationships but that was not what the op asked.

Most likely its very complicated and multi-factorial.

The control issue seems to be a big factor and that is related to low self sesame in the abuser who erroneously believes that if only there partner did what they wanted everything would be alright its a dysfunctional way of coping for the abuser. There could be social anxiety they feel their partner is causing them to be laughed at or they may have a violent personality or come from an abusive background themselves where they experienced poor or no positive male role models.

They is no one answer to the question.

professore

GingerLily wrote: »

There are so many generalisations on this thread with no basis, I think a lot of people in this thread are only interested in why ATTRACTIVE women go out with assholes who are abusive, they aren't really interested in the rest of relationship abuse in society.....

Well if they are attractive they have a lot of options. So you would imagine they would choose a good one. It's possible a physically unattractive woman couldn't "get" anyone else except an abuser / addict ... but again in my experience they tend to end up with decent men on the whole.

valoren

valoren wrote: »

There is a world of difference between say an ambitious, self absorbed, self-centered, workaholic and arrogant arsehole, basically someone who has their **** together but too self obsessed to notice or care and an abusive, feckless addict, a complete loser who hits women. While you could argue that women might find the former a challenge or a sexy bastard who makes them go weak at the knees, I fail to see as with the OP what exactly is a turn on or might give a woman tingles about getting punched and verbally abused by some scobe.

Well.. here's the thing. I don't understand peoples interest in Children. Sure, they're sometimes cute but a dog seems so much better. Just as I've never understood the fascination with football. Not the sport in itself, but the loyal following of a team where the fan goes so far as to get into fights to protect its honor. There are heaps of emotional attractions that I just don't get.

At the same time, I don't get this attraction to be abused by someone else or perform self-abuse. I've had my addictions (smoking, and sugar), and bad habits (getting stoned, enjoying strippers) but I mostly control myself.

Now, I have three female friends (genuinely lovely women) who consistently find the worst examples of men to be their boyfriends. They're (the men) never particularly handsome, wealthy or charming, but they'll all be violent, ultra jealous, and control freaks. They'll also be cheaters, sleeping around with little concern that the girl finds out. I've known these women for over a decade now, and they've never picked a nice guy in that whole time. Just absolute ****s. I don't understand it... and I have tried. The girls promise each time not to repeat it, but they'll either go back to a previous guy or find someone new. No interest in any of the 'normal' guys I introduce them to.

TBH I don't think it's possible for us to understand why these women want these guys. I doubt they understand themselves. Just some need to be abused (for whatever reason).

professore

mariaalice wrote: »

The question was why do women stay with abusive men, it would be equally valid to ask why men stay with abusive woman or why people both men an women stay in abusive relationships but that was not what the op asked.

Most likely its very complicated and multi-factorial.

The control issue seems to be a big factor and that is related to low self sesame in the abuser who erroneously believes that if only there partner did what they wanted everything would be alright its a dysfunctional way of coping for the abuser. There could be social anxiety they feel their partner is causing them to be laughed at or they may have a violent personality or come from an abusive background themselves where they experienced poor or no positive male role models.

They is no one answer to the question.

NO NO NO ... the question is why do women CHOOSE a man they ALREADY KNOW has an addiction or violent temperament. This is very different to someone marrying an angel from heaven who suddenly turns into the devil incarnate after they have the ring on them.

Fox_In_Socks

Luxury Print wrote: »

The whole "she wants to fix him" reasoning is nonsense. If that were the case we would find very attractive women with fat anti-social computer nerds, what better candidate is there that needs fixing.

The reality is there are characteriwtics to such degenerates which are very attractive to many women. They often simply don't give a fukc, a refreshing change from the hordes of men supplicating and trying to impress such womem on a regular basis. They are masculine and have a fearless authenticity about them, ie they won't ask you how your day was if they actually don't care just because it's social protocol.

I get what you’re saying and that’s true. Men are less agreeable than women on average but I do think that women want to have the aggression/not giving a **** aspect but that it is controlled. If it’s not controlled then you get the abuse. I do think that of the people that I like, they have a point where they can unleash themselves on a person but that it is under control. The potential to be a monster but a monster under control is the right way to be imo

mariaalice

professore wrote: »

NO NO NO ... the question is why do women CHOOSE a man they ALREADY KNOW has an addiction or violent temperament. This is very different to someone marrying an angel from heaven who suddenly turns into the devil incarnate after they have the ring on them.

Because they are not like that all the time.

I also believe some people are bad for each other and they just cant seem to see that.

professore

mariaalice wrote: »

Because they are not like that all the time.

I also believe some people are bad for each other and they just cant seem to see that.

Well a murderer isn't a murderer all the time either ... that would wear you out. How about someone that's like that none of the time?

It's kinda funny too that a lot of these "hard men" run away like scared children when someone their own size stands up to them. So the radar for "tough" is often way off.

And another thing ... is this all somehow connected with this 50 shades thing?

bobsman

Yep, I'm one of those women. Stems from my childhood, according to a therapist. I'm the eldest of 3, came from a very abusive family and I was the one who "took care of everything".

I am 45, quite a lot to offer but if there is a one legged, abusive, junkie alcoholic among a sea of good, kind men, I'll go for the first one, every time :mad:

s7ryf3925pivug

Plenty of guys do the same thing. It can be that the person perceives abusive behaviour as the norm. Being in an abusive relationship can also screw up your perceptions pretty badly.

Realising that abuse is not the norm and not something to accept can be an epiphany, and can change deeply held perceptions of people and relationships. However it is not trivial to profoundly change your basic concepts of the world, and probably impossible while actually in an abusive relationship.

qwerty ui op

bobsman wrote: »

It's a need to take care of them. I know it sounds crazy. It's my issue. It def stems from my childhood (doesn't every bloody thing?) I was in love with a guy I was seeing for 2 years. He is basically a self obsessed loner. Who dumped me on messenger (he's 45, not 15). Basically did not give a damn about me or anyone else.and I was heartbroken !! See my previous posts!!

I've a close relation who has what you have, it's hard to watch and hard to understand.
She came from a fairly good home and siblings don't have these issues.

professore

Deleted User wrote: »

valoren wrote: »

There is a world of difference between say an ambitious, self absorbed, self-centered, workaholic and arrogant arsehole, basically someone who has their **** together but too self obsessed to notice or care and an abusive, feckless addict, a complete loser who hits women. While you could argue that women might find the former a challenge or a sexy bastard who makes them go weak at the knees, I fail to see as with the OP what exactly is a turn on or might give a woman tingles about getting punched and verbally abused by some scobe.

Well.. here's the thing. I don't understand peoples interest in Children. Sure, they're sometimes cute but a dog seems so much better. Just as I've never understood the fascination with football. Not the sport in itself, but the loyal following of a team where the fan goes so far as to get into fights to protect its honor. There are heaps of emotional attractions that I just don't get.

At the same time, I don't get this attraction to be abused by someone else or perform self-abuse. I've had my addictions (smoking, and sugar), and bad habits (getting stoned, enjoying strippers) but I mostly control myself.

Now, I have three female friends (genuinely lovely women) who consistently find the worst examples of men to be their boyfriends. They're (the men) never particularly handsome, wealthy or charming, but they'll all be violent, ultra jealous, and control freaks. They'll also be cheaters, sleeping around with little concern that the girl finds out. I've known these women for over a decade now, and they've never picked a nice guy in that whole time. Just absolute ****s. I don't understand it... and I have tried. The girls promise each time not to repeat it, but they'll either go back to a previous guy or find someone new. No interest in any of the 'normal' guys I introduce them to.

TBH I don't think it's possible for us to understand why these women want these guys. I doubt they understand themselves. Just some need to be abused (for whatever reason).

That's my question and observation too.

professore

Sophia Limited Wrinkle wrote: »

Plenty of guys do the same thing. It can be that the person perceives abusive behaviour as the norm. Being in an abusive relationship can also screw up your perceptions pretty badly.

Realising that abuse is not the norm and not something to accept can be an epiphany, and can change deeply held perceptions of people and relationships. However it is not trivial to profoundly change your basic concepts of the world, and probably impossible while actually in an abusive relationship.

I never ever met a guy who went after a woman who was known beforehand as an abusive bitch. I've seen plenty of guys get in relationships wth them not knowing what they were getting into and being slowly ground down. This happens to women too. This is not what I'm talking about though.