Addicts / Abusers and women

professore

This has always been something I could never get my head around. There seems to be a significant amount of women who are nice, caring and have no shortage of male admirers that seek out and stay with men who are addicts and/or abusers. Any agony aunt column or boards itself is full of them.

Why would someone willingly put themselves through that - and saying "they didn't know" is not an answer as in many cases they did know but didn't listen. Is it really that hot and sexy to be spending the baby's nappy money on your next fix or beating up mum in front of the children?

I'm not judging, I just can't understand it.

suicide_circus

The stereotype is that they instinctually want to "fix" these bad/damaged men.

Plenty of men with cray cray women it has to be said.

sbsquarepants

It's one of lifes little mysteries alright, but it does happen over and over. I can't wrap my head around it either, some sort of warped mothering instinct or something, who knows.

If my daughter brought home some junkie, I wouldn't even try to talk her out of it because you're 100% bound to fail. I would however have a little private talk with him and make him see the sense in dumping her for his own wellbeing!

gifted

Many have tried and many more will fail....but no one will ever "get" just what goes on in a womans mind lol lol....

NI24

A social pressure to "stand by your man".  People will condemn a woman for being too picky and this is an extension of that.

professore

I know one otherwise intelligent woman who says she married a guy like this just because her dad didn't like him. Not sure if she's even joking about it. It didn't end well.

Because some people appear wonderful on the outside but are completely warped on the inside.

Worth including those who feel themselves to be "in love"... And that love is not dependent on how he behaves or how he treats her. She rises above such crude expressions and her love is far more important. (Yes, I have a friend who actually said this about her abusive relationship)

professore

NI24 wrote: »

A social pressure to "stand by your man".  People will condemn a woman for being too picky and this is an extension of that.

If that's true, why don't they pick a fat unpopular nerd? Not buying it.

NI24

professore wrote: »

If that's true, why don't they pick a fat unpopular nerd? Not buying it.

They do pick fat nerds.  You asked why they picked addicts and abusers.  Fat nerds can be addicts and abusers as well.

Hector Savage

The un PC answer is ... women love bastards.

Simple really.

eviltwin

Can't speak about addiction but I've worked in domestic violence support and most of the people I dealt with felt trapped. I don't think any of them enjoyed the abuse. It's easy to say leave but where do you go when you've no money and youre terrified. Most domestic related murders happen when the victim leaves.

andekwarhola

How many women actually do that though versus women that are in a relationship and the man becomes an addict or abuser?

I don't know myself.

Sometimes there can be an element of the blame game there. Or something more personal, like the reason she doesn't find me attractive is that I'm great but Women Like Bastards.

As for why women stay. Again who knows every situation. Maybe they're just afraid of the man and the consequences of leaving or standing up to him. Or love them and think they can turn it around. Or they have nowhere to go if they do leave, especially in the current economic climate. Life's not black or white

I doubt there's many women that actually enjoy being beaten or living with addicts.

Hector Bellend

It's because they "love him"

Fr_Dougal

Lots of times these women come from families that were a bit unstable, absent fathers, or abusive relationships between their parents. There’s an element of these types of relationships being the perceived ‘norm’, and also, as posters have mentioned, they pick partners they want to ‘fix’. Basically daddy issues I suppose.

valoren

I see it with my own parents, both in their late 60's now. My dad is an alcohol addict. He has been in a serious denial about it since I can remember.

He is a narcissistic arsehole of the highest order, yet my mother still stays with him to this day to our frustration.

Down through the years he has;

Been arrested twice for drink driving....within the same month in the early 80's. She did nothing.
Has thrown a punch at my mother during a drunken argument when we were kids around the same time. Still nothing.

Left the home without notice, when my brother was an infant, and moved to England after he got a government grant ostensibly to set up a business but spent it on a drinking sabbatical in England. He effectively abandoned the family with 3 kids aged 6, 4 and 4 weeks old. He came home after 9 months, when the funds had run out and pretended like nothing happened. Still my Mother took him back.

He fell asleep while badly hungover, while supposed to be minding my brother, aged 2, in 1986 who managed to open the front door and managed to walk to our Aunt's house just over a mile away. It's a miracle nothing bad happened. We live in a suburb.

He has fallen out with his entire family over the years. He has 6 brothers and 1 sister who love him as a brother but simply have no time for him. He is regarded as a nuisance who has to be tolerated by my mother's family, avoided where possible.

Has lost countless jobs through the years, through indifference, by falling out with people there, by being unreliable, by showing up late, hungover etc.

In 1993, he asked me for a 'loan' of £20 after I made my confirmation, aged 12, which I refused. He had no cash and was planning to go to the pub. I was 12 and knew exactly what he wanted it for.

In 1997, he was involved in the setting up and coaching of an underage soccer team and on a trip to England was drinking and had to be sent home by the Committee. He was supervising children while pissed as a fart and they needed to do what needed to be done.

He still regularly drove through the years while pissed drunk and thankfully never hurt or killed anybody.
Has been arrested twice for drunk and disorderly behaviour and spent the night in jail in the early 00's

Whenever he had a sizeable amount of cash, he would go on two week benders that would involve staying until closing time and getting up early, driving the car to the early morning pubs and wash, rinse repeat until the money was gone.

He has gotten violent with me on numerous occasions when I called him out on his drinking, he has thrown punches at me and I've thrown punches back purely because of his drinking and the trouble it has caused.

After another serious bender in 1996, he committed himself to a psychiatric ward in Cork (St Anne's). He stayed for 4 days until they realized there was actually nothing wrong with him mentally. In hindsight, it was pure deflection from him, he claimed he was being driven mental by my mother. If anyone asked questions so to speak, he could blame my mother. And not his drinking addiction. Still nothing changed. Still she stayed by his side despite appeals from us as teenagers to do herself a favor and get rid of him.

In 1999, after winning a settlement of £12,000 spent 7 months drunk every day until the money ran out. The country was going through a building boom, he was a qualified, talented welder and he was instead in the boozer. Work was beneath him.

In 2003, pissed on whiskey, after he tried to take a swing with a golf club at my younger brother, 19 at the time, who had angrily spoken out against his drinking. I literally had to throw him out of the front door and slam it shut on him.

In 2004, Christmas Day, he had been drinking daily for a month beforehand, we weren't talking, it was a toxic atmosphere and we went to visit relatives graves as we usually did, we came home to find a fire was lighting in the backyard. He drunkenly claimed it must have been arson, but we knew it was him. And it was his way of getting attention. The fire was next to the oil tank and if we hadn't spotted it who knows what might have happened.

Christmas Day 2006, pissed on Whiskey, I had to restrain him from driving around to look for an open garage or shop for more booze and had to hide his keys, he passed out asleep soon after thankfully.

He has a litany of empty naggins of whiskey and vodka badly hidden around the house.

He again moved out of home in 2009, complaining that our mother was driving him mental and stayed in a dingy bedsit for 6 months, but returned reluctantly because our mother was frightened living on her own. He has ever since effectively been a lodger in the home. He contributes nothing to the upkeep of the house, bills etc. He is constantly abusive towards her, shouting at her and belittling her as being stupid.

He has twice been drunkenly abusive towards my wife before and while she was pregnant at family events. We nearly came to blows......again.

He has most recently, last October, been in a scuffle with Iarnrod Eireann staff in Heuston Station and had to be restrained and escorted off the train after giving racist abuse towards a Polish security guard after he had drunkenly jumped the queue and jumped over a barrier to board the train. He spent the night in a cell to sleep off the drink.

And despite all that. It is my mother who has brainwashed us against him. She has the problem with drink. We have the problem, not him. In a pure contradiction, while he claims my mother is thick stupid, she still has the intelligence and cunning to manipulate 3 grown men. Pointing this out to him makes him hit the roof. He knows I am intolerant of his behavior, that I understand his manipulation and abuse, he knows I wipe the floor with him and he threatens violence when called out.

In his deluded head, he isn't an alcoholic. He is just being a social drinker, and likes a drink. It would make you laugh if it weren't so serious. Yet, people would think butter wouldn't melt, that he's a lovely man unaware of the toxic reality. Before Christmas, he said he was going to slit my mother's throat as she was driving him mental. He was completely sober. She is on anti-depressants for the past number of years over him, again pointing this out to him merely results in shouting and roaring from him.

He's not laughing now. He is now in very serious trouble, more below. And yet my mother will still stay with him. He at the age of 69 now realizes what he wants to do with his life. He wants to be a football scout. He paid the bones of a thousand euro for a course certificate from England. On New Years Eve, he was complaining about the heating being turned off by my mother. He'd have it on all day if he could, but he doesn't hand over a penny. He left the house the following day, in a huff to stay to stay with a drinking buddy. He was driving, and he bought a bottle of whiskey. He rang me, drunk, to inform me he was going about a divorce. We would need to talk to my mother and arrange a nursing home for her as she was gone crazy. He was on the brink of killing her the night before he said. I called him out, read him the riot act about his behaviour and he hit the roof, cursing and insulting me. I was a blue shirt preacher, an idiot and a stupid muppet etc. I recorded the message if required by the guards, he makes a threat 8 times.

Later that night he drove, he rang my brother and said he was going to end it all by driving into the local cemetery wall. He wanted to be buried there after crashing. He was looking for attention, later he was caught at a check point, arrested for drink driving and charged. A doctor was called to take blood samples and urine. His reading was presumably through the roof. He being a belligerent arsehole must have been a nightmare to deal with. Later he claimed he'd been assaulted by the guards, he conveniently got amnesia about what happened that night. He started complaining about his ribs, called himself an ambulance and got seen to. Nothing wrong with him.

He is continually blaming my mother for instigating it. He blames her, he blames his drinking buddy for letting him drive, he blames the guards for beating him up. Everyone else to blame but himself. He told my mother he cried. A manipulative prick to the end. He knows his driving days and his scouting are now over. With any luck he will be off the road for number of years. And it's his own fault.

He warned my mother she'd better be gone if he get's charged, yet another threat. She stayed with me for a few nights to get away. While collecting her he was confronted, warned that if he threatened her again he would be reported to the Guards. He arrogantly told me to fcuk off, that his threat was a promise, that my mother was a liar, that he was a goddamn genius and would beat all of us up and down when it came to intelligence. I could have throttled him there and then to be honest. My telling him it was certainly a genius move to drive drunk, and he wouldn't long be seeing the consequences drove him nuts. My mother pushed me out of the house. She said she didn't want me implicated by getting violent with him. I recorded it on my phone, he doesn't know he was previously recorded.

When I dropped my mother back home, he saw us there and was as quiet as a mouse. I left and the next day, he feigned surprise that she was back, he must now be pretending to have early onset dementia. And he said he had so much peace when she was away that he'd even written a song!

And yet still she will live with him, still she will put up with it, her confidence to stand up for herself stripped away over years of abuse. Nothing will ever change despite all of the above. No matter how many variations of telling her that he is toxic, and toxic people need to be dealt with by not dealing with them it is never sufficient. We've pleaded with her to get a divorce. She won't. Nothing more we can do to our continued frustrations. She has been threatened by him and won't even take it seriously. It just boggles the mind why she endures it.

professore

For clarity I am not referring to women who are stuck for financial or other reasons. I'm referring to single women who knowingly get into a relationship and stay with men like this who have plenty of options. There are men with Cray Cray women but these women tend to be hot and the stupid guy puts up with the **** because of this. Just wondering if these women are doing the same thing

silverharp

eviltwin wrote: »

Can't speak about addiction but I've worked in domestic violence support and most of the people I dealt with felt trapped. I don't think any of them enjoyed the abuse. It's easy to say leave but where do you go when you've no money and youre terrified. Most domestic related murders happen when the victim leaves.

the issue is how does it go that far? I know abusers can be superficially charming etc. but I find it hard to believe that in a lot of cases they can keep a perfect mask before the couple are financially or otherwise connected.?

silverharp

silverharp wrote: »

the issue is how does it go that far? I know abusers can be superficially charming etc. but I find it hard to believe that in a lot of cases they can keep a perfect mask before the couple are financially or otherwise connected.?

Everything is crystal in hindsight but I'd say a lot of red flags, if any, would be just little things on their own. Gradually boiling a frog situation and then before you know it you're in hospital

Your Face

Because they are dumb.

No need to write a Tolstoyesque novel in an effort to explain it.

professore

valoren wrote: »

I see it with my own parents, both in their late 60's now. My dad is an alcohol addict. He has been in a serious denial about it since I can remember.

He is a narcissistic arsehole of the highest order, yet my mother still stays with him to this day to our frustration.

Down through the years he has;

Been arrested twice for drink driving....within the same month in the early 80's. She did nothing.
Has thrown a punch at my mother during a drunken argument when we were kids around the same time. Still nothing.

Left the home without notice, when my brother was an infant, and moved to England after he got a government grant ostensibly to set up a business but spent it on a drinking sabbatical in England. He effectively abandoned the family with 3 kids aged 6, 4 and 4 weeks old. He came home after 9 months, when the funds had run out and pretended like nothing happened. Still my Mother took him back.

He fell asleep while badly hungover, while supposed to be minding my brother, aged 2, in 1986 who managed to open the front door and managed to walk to our Aunt's house just over a mile away. It's a miracle nothing bad happened. We live in a suburb.

He has fallen out with his entire family over the years. He has 6 brothers and 1 sister who love him as a brother but simply have no time for him. He is regarded as a nuisance who has to be tolerated by my mother's family, avoided where possible.

Has lost countless jobs through the years, through indifference, by falling out with people there, by being unreliable, by showing up late, hungover etc.

In 1993, he asked me for a 'loan' of £20 after I made my confirmation, aged 12, which I refused. He had no cash and was planning to go to the pub. I was 12 and knew exactly what he wanted it for.

In 1997, he was involved in the setting up and coaching of an underage soccer team and on a trip to England was drinking and had to be sent home by the Committee. He was supervising children while pissed as a fart and they needed to do what needed to be done.

He still regularly drove through the years while pissed drunk and thankfully never hurt or killed anybody.
Has been arrested twice for drunk and disorderly behaviour and spent the night in jail in the early 00's

Whenever he had a sizeable amount of cash, he would go on two week benders that would involve staying until closing time and getting up early, driving the car to the early morning pubs and wash, rinse repeat until the money was gone.

He has gotten violent with me on numerous occasions when I called him out on his drinking, he has thrown punches at me and I've thrown punches back purely because of his drinking and the trouble it has caused.

In 1999, after winning a settlement of £12,000 spent 7 months drunk every day until the money ran out. The country was going through a building boom, he was a qualified, talented welder and he was instead in the boozer. Work was beneath him.

In 2003, pissed on whiskey, after he tried to take a swing with a golf club at my younger brother, 19 at the time, who had angrily spoken out against his drinking. I literally had to throw him out of the front door and slam it shut on him.

In 2004, Christmas Day, he had been drinking daily for a month beforehand, we weren't talking, it was a toxic atmosphere and we went to visit relatives graves as we usually did, we came home to find a fire was lighting in the backyard. He drunkenly claimed it must have been arson, but we knew it was him. And it was his way of getting attention. The fire was next to the oil tank and if we hadn't spotted it who knows what might have happened.

Christmas Day 2006, pissed on Whiskey, I had to restrain him from driving around to look for an open garage or shop for more booze and had to hide his keys, he passed out asleep soon after thankfully.

He has a litany of empty naggins of whiskey and vodka badly hidden around the house.

He again moved out of home in 2009, complaining that our mother was driving him mental and stayed in a dingy bedsit for 6 months, but returned reluctantly because our mother was frightened living on her own. He has ever since effectively been a lodger in the home. He contributes nothing to the upkeep of the house, bills etc. He is constantly abusive towards her, shouting at her and belittling her as being stupid.

He has twice been drunkenly abusive towards my wife before and while she was pregnant at family events. We nearly came to blows......again.

He has most recently, last October, been in a scuffle with Iarnrod Eireann staff in Heuston Station and had to be restrained and escorted off the train after giving racist abuse towards a Polish security guard after he had drunkenly jumped the queue and jumped over a barrier to board the train. He spent the night in a cell to sleep off the drink.

And despite all that. It is my mother who has brainwashed us against him. She has the problem with drink. We have the problem, not him. In his deluded head, he isn't an alcoholic. He is just being a social drinker, and likes a drink. It would make you laugh if it weren't so serious. Before Christmas, he said he was going to slit her throat as she was driving him mental. She is on anti-depressants for the past number of years over him.

He's not laughing now. He is now in very serious trouble, more below. And yet my mother will still stay with him. He at the age of 69 now realizes what he wants to do with his life. He wants to be a football scout. He paid the bones of a thousand euro for a course certificate from England. On New Years Eve, he was complaining about the heating being turned off by my mother. He'd have it on all day if he could, but he doesn't hand over a penny. He left the house the following day, in a huff to stay to stay with a drinking buddy. He was driving, and he bought a bottle of whiskey. He rang me, drunk, to inform me he was going about a divorce. We would need to talk to my mother and arrange a nursing home for her as she was gone crazy. He was on the brink of killing her the night before he said. I called him out, read him the riot act about his behaviour and he hit the roof, cursing and insulting me. I was a blue shirt preacher, an idiot and a stupid muppet etc. I recorded the message if required by the guards, he makes a threat 8 times.

Later that night he drove, he rang my brother and said he was going to end it all by driving into the local cemetery wall. He wanted to be buried there after crashing. He was looking for attention, later he was caught at a check point, arrested for drink driving and charged. A doctor was called to take blood samples and urine. His reading was presumably through the roof. He being a belligerent arsehole must have been a nightmare to deal with. Later he claimed he'd been assaulted by the guards, he conveniently got amnesia about what happened that night. He started complaining about his ribs, called himself an ambulance and got seen to. Nothing wrong with him.

He is continually blaming my mother for instigating it. He knows his driving days and his scouting are now over. And it's his own fault. He warned my mother she'd better be gone if he get's charged, yet another threat. She stayed with me for a few nights to get away. While collecting her he was confronted, warned that if he threatened her again he would be reported to the Guards. He arrogantly told me to fcuk off, that his threat was a promise, that my mother was a liar, that he was a goddamn genius and would beat all of us up and down when it came to intelligence. I could have throttled him there and then to be honest. My telling him it was certainly a genius move to drive drunk, and he wouldn't long be seeing the consequences drove him nuts. My mother pushed me out of the house. She said she didn't want me implicated by getting violent with him. I recorded it on my phone, he doesn't know he was previously recorded.

And still she will live with him, still she put's up with it, her confidence to stand up for herself stripped away over years of abuse. No matter how many variations of telling her that he is toxic, and toxic people need to be dealt with by not dealing with them it is never sufficient. We've pleaded with her to get a divorce. She won't. She has been threatened by him and won't even take it seriously. It just boggles the mind why she endures it.

That's absolutely terrible.

GingerLily

Abusers and addicts are more emotionally manipulative, they make their victim feel needed.

Men are also equally likely to be in abusive relationships so I wouldn't think it's only a problem women have.

erica74

I'm not even going to pretend I understand what is going on in the mind of an abused partner (both men and women are abused and both men and woman may choose to "stand by" their partner), every relationship is unique and nobody can say in simple terms "eh, if you're being abused, just leave". It all sounds so easy when it's just words.

NI24

Another thing that needs to mentioned is that a lot of women don't see it as that bad, necessarily.  It's not even a case of what they are willing to handle, but what they can handle.  Valoren's post was a perfect example.

seamus

There are probably as many people of both sexes living with a partner who is suffering an addiction or who is emotionally or physically abusive.

The notion of being able to "fix" the other goes both ways, it's not just a silly woman's ideal - the victim stills sees flashes of the person they fell in love with and believe that with time they can back to where they were.

You also have a "better the devil you know" attitude where someone feels that having a partner that they know and who is occasionally decent, is better than being alone and having no partner at all.

Social pressures too - many people don't want to face the questions and the discussion. They would rather stick out a bad relationship than have to admit to friends, family and their church group that their relationship has failed.

Financial pressure - if the abuser is the breadwinner, this is a big one. How do you leave when you don't have a penny to your name?

Plain old fear - 75% of women murdered by a spouse or partner are murdered when they have made plans to leave or have just left. So in many respects leaving is not the end of the abuse. Leaving is the beginning of the worst and is when an abuser will really show their claws. So a victim, as anyone would, will try to pick the road which doesn't involve having to fight for their life.

Wibbs

Personal angle here so... Humans today appear to be "domesticated" versions of earlier human species both physically and mentally. Now obviously since nobody domesticated us we essentially domesticated ourselves. Women would have been the main drivers of this down the millennia. A social calming effect on society and the more aggressive, even broken men. The "bad boy" phase, the huge amount of letters that murderers and monster men get in gaol and men with addiction etc might be extremes of this innate drive to nurture and "fix" society/men. On top of the other reasons folks have mentioned of course.

sbsquarepants

Valoren - your story reminds me almost identically to a cousin of mine.

After a string of disasters (a particular highlight was a fairly hilarious punch up with a clown at a kids party:D) I eventually took to avoiding him, even not answering the door when he knocked, he'd think nothing of knocking at your door at 7am on a Wednesday morning with a can in his hand!

Hadn't seen him for a few years when he sat down beside me at a family funeral, I literally couldn't believe my eyes - he looked 10 years younger, smartly dressed, stone cold sober. He'd split up with the missus and promptly gave up the drink, said they were just toxic together. I was genuinely amazed at the change.

It's possible that the best thing your mother could do for him, never mind for herself, is to finally show him the door.

NI24

seamus wrote: »

There are probably as many people of both sexes living with a partner who is suffering an addiction or who is emotionally or physically abusive.

The notion of being able to "fix" the other goes both ways, it's not just a silly woman's ideal - the victim stills sees flashes of the person they fell in love with and believe that with time they can back to where they were.

I have to respectfully disagree. In my experience, men are much less likely to tolerate addiction or abusive tendencies in women. It's not even that women are less likely to have these tendencies (though I could argue they don't) but that they avoid this much more than women, generally speaking.

GingerLily

GingerLily wrote: »

Abusers and addicts are more emotionally manipulative, they make their victim feel needed.

Men are also equally likely to be in abusive relationships so I wouldn't think it's only a problem women have.

+1

I suspect the difference is that when the man is in an abusive relationship (where the woman is the abuser or addict), the signs are often less clear. Sure, you get your drugs/drink addicts, but you also get addicts for emotion.

I had an ex who was never happy unless she was depressed. The first few weeks of the relationship, she was wonderful but TBH we'd had frequent periods of separation due to work. But then we spent much more time together. Severe mood swings. Bouts of crying, anger, etc coupled with "genuine remorse", and lastly causing self-harm but blaming others for the injuries. All to get attention, but... when she got the attention, she'd go nuts because people were bothering with her private life. [I have emotional and physical scars from that relationship]

I think that the signs of men being abusers or addicts are generally more obvious. With women, people go out of their way to protect her reputation, making excuses for her behavior, simply because she's female and more "vulnerable".

CrankyHaus

Abusers often tend to be addicts. Addicts are great at lying and manipulation, they have to be to keep their little party going.
Straight-up Abusers seem to have a knack for lying and manipulation too, maybe a lack of respect for others means they can say any BS to keep someone under their thumb.

People good at lying and manipulation seem to have an ability to seek out types who'll believe their guff, often the most vulnerable, and to avoid those who'll send them packing.

BTW an excellent film out at the moment, I, Tonya, gives a fairly insightful portrait of abusive relationships.

Fox_In_Socks

To some extent, I’d put it down to the Beauty and the Beast effect. The wild untameable male, eventually domesticated and brought under control as Wibbs said above. The female version of the Hero’s journey.

tritium

In my experience abusers tend to be good at keeping the other party on the hook. Whether it’s promises to change, swearing undying love, threats they they can’t live without them, whatever, they find the hook and hang on. I’d a friend many years ago who had tried many times to leave his abusive girlfriend. Every time she’d self harm and threaten suicide knowing he wouldn’t leave her in that spot. The sad thing was we all knew she would be unlikely to actually do it, I think he did too, but he wouldn’t take the risk. This was in spite of him being in a very toxic (for him) relationship, but self preservation simply wasn’t high enough up his priorities and that was the hook she used. Ultimately it meant he could be controlled, and once someone is controlled they won’t make sensible choices.

More generally there’s also a significant number of cases where both parties actually have similar problems.

pilly

professore wrote: »

If that's true, why don't they pick a fat unpopular nerd? Not buying it.

Why are all addicts slim and good looking now? What?

GingerLily

NI24 wrote: »

I have to respectfully disagree. In my experience, men are much less likely to tolerate addiction or abusive tendencies in women.

What experience is this?

All the evidence suggests that the number of men in abusive relationships is similar to women (some sources suggest more) , particularly emotional abuse.

c.p.w.g.w

Hector Savage wrote: »

The un PC answer is ... women love bastards.

Simple really.

https://youtu.be/kOwTF_i6zOc

Widdershins

professore wrote: »

If that's true, why don't they pick a fat unpopular nerd? Not buying it.

Well some do. But there you have it, physical attraction is part of love, or essential for a physical relationship, for a lot of women. I have questioned whether I'd love the man I love if he was ugly. I feel mean and it seems to cheapen the idea of love but that's the way it is.

I know I'd still love him if his face became disfigured, but somehow it's different.

This kind of answers the question in the OP too. They fancy the pants off them physically and maybe their wildness is part of the attraction.

And they don't tend to treat the woman badly in the beginning.

RDM_83 again

seamus wrote: »

There are probably as many people of both sexes living with a partner who is suffering an addiction or who is emotionally or physically abusive.

The notion of being able to "fix" the other goes both ways, it's not just a silly woman's ideal - the victim stills sees flashes of the person they fell in love with and believe that with time they can back to where they were.

You also have a "better the devil you know" attitude where someone feels that having a partner that they know and who is occasionally decent, is better than being alone and having no partner at all.

Social pressures too - many people don't want to face the questions and the discussion. They would rather stick out a bad relationship than have to admit to friends, family and their church group that their relationship has failed.

Financial pressure - if the abuser is the breadwinner, this is a big one. How do you leave when you don't have a penny to your name?

Plain old fear - 75% of women murdered by a spouse or partner are murdered when they have made plans to leave or have just left. So in many respects leaving is not the end of the abuse. Leaving is the beginning of the worst and is when an abuser will really show their claws. So a victim, as anyone would, will try to pick the road which doesn't involve having to fight for their life.

Yes but that doesn't explain why it appears (some) women, who after all the cliche is have a greater emotional intelligence and better at picking up non verbal signs. Seem to ignore or be attracted to men/boys with issues that are obvious to neutral parties.
Men do the same thing but it's generally more obviously explained e.g she is hot or they aren't normally good with woman.

Clearly not talking about all woman but it definitely seems to be a thing for girls aged 16 to maybe 20-24 and some never grow out of it, I just don't think there is an equivalent thing for guys to the same extent

Staying with an abuser is a whole different discussion really to people who seek out "bad boys"

They can be conditioned in to it they were brought up in a family with an alcoholic parent or they were raised by two people who were in an abusive relationship, constant promises to change, drama ect seems normal to them.

eviltwin

Low self esteem would be a factor too. We accept the treatment we think we deserve.

Stonedpilot

Yet ANOTHER biased thread against men.
Like a extreme feminist rally here these days.

I have seen it the other way around too. Abusive women dogging kind, gentle caring men. Physical mental and emotional torture.

Its simple the womens and mens reasons are their own.

Pointless saying diatribe crap like "daddy issues" or "need to fix em" etc

cantdecide

Erin Pizzey, who set up the world's first women's refuge in London in the 70s, regularly makes the point about the generational aspect of domestic violence having herself grown up in violent house.

GingerLily

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Yet ANOTHER biased thread against men.
Like a extreme feminist rally here these days.

I have seen it the other way around too. Abusive women dogging kind, gentle caring men. Physical mental and emotional torture.

Its simple the womens and mens reasons are their own.

Pointless saying diatribe crap like "daddy issues" or "need to fix em" etc

Its equally offensive to women if you read the contributions from some posters....

professore

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Yet ANOTHER biased thread against men.
Like a extreme feminist rally here these days.

I have seen it the other way around too. Abusive women dogging kind, gentle caring men. Physical mental and emotional torture.

Its simple the womens and mens reasons are their own.

Pointless saying diatribe crap like "daddy issues" or "need to fix em" etc

I was worried it would be seen to be biased against women ...

Wibbs

cantdecide wrote: »

Erin Pizzey, who set up the world's first women's refuge in London in the 70s,

it actually became a refuge for all victims of domestic abuse, including men(and the victims kids). This actually got her into trouble down the line as she suggested that much domestic violence was a two way street and women could be just as abusive as men. The militant types freaked out at this and she even got death threats over it and in the end she was banned from the refuges she founded. Mad.

Stonedpilot

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Yet ANOTHER biased thread against men.
Like a extreme feminist rally here these days.

Are you on the wrong thread

erica74

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Yet ANOTHER biased thread against men.
Like a extreme feminist rally here these days.

I have seen it the other way around too. Abusive women dogging kind, gentle caring men. Physical mental and emotional torture.

Its simple the womens and mens reasons are their own.

Pointless saying diatribe crap like "daddy issues" or "need to fix em" etc

In all fairness, as the thread has progressed on from the opening post, many posters have mentioned that abuse occurs in both sexes against both sexes.

Stonedpilot

erica74 wrote: »

In all fairness, as the thread has progressed on from the opening post, many posters have mentioned that abuse occurs in both sexes against both sexes.

Fair enough but nice to have some balance once in a while, the incessant man bashing and bias against men on this can get tiresome.

Stonedpilot

cantdecide wrote: »

Erin Pizzey, who set up the world's first women's refuge in London in the 70s, regularly makes the point about the generational aspect of domestic violence having herself grown up in violent house.

Erin is a wonderful woman, When she wrote her book Prone to Violence that showed women can be terribly physically violent and abusive too such was the extent of hatred from feminist organizations and death threats to her life she had to leave the UK and live abroad. This level of hostility against a lady who has dedicated her life to helping abuse victims.

Extraordinary.

valoren

There is a world of difference between say an ambitious, self absorbed, self-centered, workaholic and arrogant arsehole, basically someone who has their **** together yet doesn't give a ****, too self obsessed to notice or care and an abusive, feckless addict, a complete loser who hits women. While you could argue that women might find the former a challenge or a sexy bastard who makes them go weak at the knees, I fail to see as with the OP what exactly is a turn on or might give a woman tingles about getting punched and verbally abused by some scobe.

GingerLily

There are so many generalisations on this thread with no basis, I think a lot of people in this thread are only interested in why ATTRACTIVE women go out with assholes who are abusive, they aren't really interested in the rest of relationship abuse in society.....

The question was why do women stay with abusive men, it would be equally valid to ask why men stay with abusive woman or why people both men an women stay in abusive relationships but that was not what the op asked.

Most likely its very complicated and multi-factorial.

The control issue seems to be a big factor and that is related to low self sesame in the abuser who erroneously believes that if only there partner did what they wanted everything would be alright its a dysfunctional way of coping for the abuser. There could be social anxiety they feel their partner is causing them to be laughed at or they may have a violent personality or come from an abusive background themselves where they experienced poor or no positive male role models.

They is no one answer to the question.

professore

GingerLily wrote: »

There are so many generalisations on this thread with no basis, I think a lot of people in this thread are only interested in why ATTRACTIVE women go out with assholes who are abusive, they aren't really interested in the rest of relationship abuse in society.....

Well if they are attractive they have a lot of options. So you would imagine they would choose a good one. It's possible a physically unattractive woman couldn't "get" anyone else except an abuser / addict ... but again in my experience they tend to end up with decent men on the whole.