6N Tournament 2018 (non-Irish TT)

Interested Observer

Webbs wrote: »

Wales announce team to face England

Wales: Leigh Halfpenny; Josh Adams, Scott Williams, Hadleigh Parkes, Steff Evans; Rhys Patchell, Gareth Davies; Rob Evans, Ken Owens, Samson Lee; Cory Hill, Alun Wyn Jones; Aaron Shingler, Josh Navidi, Ross Moriarty.

Reps: Elliot Dee, Wyn Jones, Tomas Francis, Bradley Davies, Justin Tipuric, Aled Davies, Gareth Anscombe, George North.

Same team then? Apparently Liam Williams is back fit but just hasn't been included. North on the bench there too I see.

Webbs

Wales have to try and avoid trench warfare at all costs. Teh game will need to be high tempo and Wales moving point of attack and try to exploit England in the wider channels.
As usual the breakdown will be key, Wales have to get quick ball and get a few turnovers or it could be a long day.

stephen_n

thebaz wrote: »

looking at world rankings Georgia are ahead of Italy who are at 14 - When if ever do people think Georgia may be added to 6 Nations ?

Italy would be ahead of Georgia in the rankings if they weren't getting hockeyed in the 6N every year. Swings and roundabouts as there probably is not much difference between the two sides in the level they are at.

irishbucsfan

Georgia, Romania and the rest of them will stay where they are until rugby matures as a sport and takes the power away from a handful of teams who directly benefit from Georgia's exclusion. Unfortunately.

It'll be a long time, I think, although I certainly appreciate the work guys like Pichot are doing in trying to make changes.

AbusesToilets

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Georgia, Romania and the rest of them will stay where they are until rugby matures as a sport and takes the power away from a handful of teams who directly benefit from Georgia's exclusion. Unfortunately.

It'll be a long time, I think, although I certainly appreciate the work guys like Pichot are doing in trying to make changes.

The IRFU being one of the worst in that respect.

Fair play to Gatland for rewarding that team

Akrasia

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Georgia, Romania and the rest of them will stay where they are until rugby matures as a sport and takes the power away from a handful of teams who directly benefit from Georgia's exclusion. Unfortunately.

It'll be a long time, I think, although I certainly appreciate the work guys like Pichot are doing in trying to make changes.

This is the 18th year that Italy are in the 6 nations, they've had professional teams in the Magners league/pro-12 since 2010 and they're still way off the pace.

Adding more tier 2 teams to the 6 nations would be lambs to the slaughter.

If the Georgians want to push their way into top teir professional rugby, they should emulate the celtic model and have one or two provincial style rugby teams to use to push to win the Challenge cup, and from there they can qualify for the ERC.

if Romanian teams can do well in the ERC, they would have a very strong argument for their national team to get access to top tier rugby.

swiwi_

Food for thought?

irishbucsfan

Akrasia wrote: »

This is the 18th year that Italy are in the 6 nations, they've had professional teams in the Magners league/pro-12 since 2010 and they're still way off the pace.

Adding more tier 2 teams to the 6 nations would be lambs to the slaughter.

If the Georgians want to push their way into top teir professional rugby, they should emulate the celtic model and have one or two provincial style rugby teams to use to push to win the Challenge cup, and from there they can qualify for the ERC.

if Romanian teams can do well in the ERC, they would have a very strong argument for their national team to get access to top tier rugby.

You don't need to add more tier 2 teams to the 6 Nations at all. In fact in a calendar that's already packed it probably isn't an option at all.

The answer is to move the top tier under the auspices of Rugby Europe and make it the official top tier of the Rugby Europe Championship. Following each season have a promotion playoff between the team who came last in the 6 Nations and the team who finished first in the Championship (Georgia since 2011).

That creates a pathway all the way from the very bottom of European international rugby (Slovakia currently) all the way to the very top (the glorious nation of Ireland).

This is indeed pie in the sky stuff. There'd be serious financial questions to be answered, it's turkeys voting for christmas. But one day I hope the turkeys will be overthrown and the sport will mature.

Akrasia

Without a couple of top class clubs the national team is dead in the water. They need to start at grassroots and build up a squad of players that can compete at club level, and when they start to do this consistently, then they have earned the right to join the big boys at international level. Until this happens, all talk about elitism is nonsense.

They might consider some kind of international series with the top 6 or 7 2nd tier nations as a way to boost domestic interest in their sport. It would be interesting to see a tournament that had Fiji, Georgia, USA, Canada,Tonga, Japan, Russia competing each year in a world ranking tournament.

I'd watch a lot of those games, they'd be awesome.

irishbucsfan

Akrasia wrote: »

Without a couple of top class clubs the national team is dead in the water. They need to start at grassroots and build up a squad of players that can compete at club level, and when they start to do this consistently, then they have earned the right to join the big boys at international level. Until this happens, all talk about elitism is nonsense.

They might consider some kind of international series with the top 6 or 7 2nd tier nations as a way to boost domestic interest in their sport. It would be interesting to see a tournament that had Fiji, Georgia, USA, Canada,Tonga, Japan, Russia competing each year in a world ranking tournament.

I'd watch a lot of those games, they'd be awesome.

Talk about elitism is certainly not nonsense. The Vice President of World Rugby would heavily disagree with you there. Not enough is being done.

Elite European clubs are absolutely not needed before international development can happen. That's absolutely blatant gatekeeping. It was never a requirement for Italy and it still isn't. The two things, development of domestic and international levels go hand in hand.

Also, it's amsuing to see someone dismiss talk of elitism and then in the same post state that elite clubs are a requirement...

Akrasia

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Talk about elitism is certainly not nonsense. The Vice President of World Rugby would heavily disagree with you there. Not enough is being done.

Elite European clubs are absolutely not needed before international development can happen. That's absolutely blatant gatekeeping. It was never a requirement for Italy and it still isn't. The two things, development of domestic and international levels go hand in hand.

Also, it's amsuing to see someone dismiss talk of elitism and then in the same post state that elite clubs are a requirement...

Elite sport isn't a bad thing. You have to earn the right to compete at an elite level in sport.
Would Italy be a better team if their clubs were performing at a decent level in the pro-14 and European? Absolutely they would, same with Scotland. Poor club performance feeds into a poor national team. The only reason Ireland are where we are, is because the IRFU developed the provincial set up to directly incubate a core of high performance elite players who are focused on performing at the elite club level and international level.

World rugby could be doing more to help develop 2nd tier nations, but the 2nd Tier nations need to step up too and organise themselves to raise their own performance levels so that they can compete at elite level.

Webbs

swiwi_ wrote: »

Food for thought?

A great article, put forward analysis of coaches that hadn't really thought about.

It certainly appears to be the trend for less rigid coaching and allowing the players more say in how things are played. How this fits with Ireland going forward compared to say the other Nations will be interesting. Come the next 6N and the WC it really will be a clash of coaching styles when Ireland play pretty much any of the other top nations.

irishbucsfan

Akrasia wrote: »

Elite sport isn't a bad thing. You have to earn the right to compete at an elite level in sport.

Right. Except in rugby where not only do you not need to earn the right to compete at an elite level, it's not even possible to do it if you want to because it's a closed shop.

Although you've changed now from saying talk of elitism is nonsense to saying that not only is it appropriate, it should be embraced!

Akrasia wrote: »

Would Italy be a better team if their clubs were performing at a decent level in the pro-14 and European? Absolutely they would, same with Scotland. Poor club performance feeds into a poor national team. The only reason Ireland are where we are, is because the IRFU developed the provincial set up to directly incubate a core of high performance elite players who are focused on performing at the elite club level and international level.

That is a very naive and short-termist view of things really.

Yes Ireland have gotten where they are over the past 20 years because of our development of our provinces....

However what allowed Ireland to do that? It was the revenue that was generated from being in an elite competition that we did not have to qualify for. Our participation in it was purely a convenient side-effect of history.

This is like an Eton alumni telling a group of under-privileged kids that he got where he is by working hard in school!

Akrasia wrote: »

World rugby could be doing more to help develop 2nd tier nations, but the 2nd Tier nations need to step up too and organise themselves to raise their own performance levels so that they can compete at elite level.

Ah right, would you say you're very familiar with what 2nd Tier nations are doing to organise themselves and raise their own performance levels?

What do you think, in that case, Georgia should do in the short term? Given they've won every single ENC since 2011? They played Wales last autumn and pushed them close. They hammered Canada. What else can they do exactly? Invite themselves into the Champions Cup?

prawnsambo

Webbs wrote: »

A great article, put forward analysis of coaches that hadn't really thought about.

It certainly appears to be the trend for less rigid coaching and allowing the players more say in how things are played. How this fits with Ireland going forward compared to say the other Nations will be interesting. Come the next 6N and the WC it really will be a clash of coaching styles when Ireland play pretty much any of the other top nations.

I'm not sure about that tbh. Would a rigidly coached team with no player involvement have taken the game to 41 phases and finished with a drop goal to win the game? It seems to me that those are the actions of a squad that believes in problem solving on the pitch and the belief to carry it through.

MJohnston

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm not sure about that tbh. Would a rigidly coached team with no player involvement have taken the game to 41 phases and finished with a drop goal to win the game? It seems to me that those are the actions of a squad that believes in problem solving on the pitch and the belief to carry it through.

Sure, wasn't there a bunch of articles in the week before saying Brunel wanted to let the French players play their own way?

Here:
http://www.the42.ie/bernard-jackman-ireland-france-3825191-Jan2018/

“There’s been a lot of talk internally from them saying the coaches have said that they want the players to pick the game plan,” explains Jackman. “The style of coaching in France is often quite dictatorial but they want to have an element of fun in everything, so the players have been involved in the strategy for this week, which is unusual for them. That will probably give them an increased sense of responsibility and being actors in their own play.

France may have scored a try, but ultimately you would have to say that they generally looked completely aimless and without strategy, and that the try itself really came from an individual piece of skill.


Regardless, I can't imagine that Schmidt isn't involving the players in strategy and decision-making, I suspect his coaching style largely involves introducing systems that free them up to make their own choices. I think it's a little weird that this is being painted as something Gatland has pioneered, particularly as you'd wonder would he take the same approach if more than half the team weren't injured?

sydthebeat

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm not sure about that tbh. Would a rigidly coached team with no player involvement have taken the game to 41 phases and finished with a drop goal to win the game? It seems to me that those are the actions of a squad that believes in problem solving on the pitch and the belief to carry it through.

i think its very possible that the structured aspect of our play was highly responsible for us being able to go 41 phases for that drop goal.

however its also probable that our structured approach had us in that situation in the first place.

prawnsambo

MJohnston wrote: »

Sure, wasn't there a bunch of articles in the week before saying Brunel wanted to let the French players play their own way?

Here:
http://www.the42.ie/bernard-jackman-ireland-france-3825191-Jan2018/

France may have scored a try, but ultimately you would have to say that they generally looked completely aimless and without strategy, and that the try itself really came from an individual piece of skill.

Regardless, I can't imagine that Schmidt isn't involving the players in strategy and decision-making, I suspect his coaching style largely involves introducing systems that free them up to make their own choices. I think it's a little weird that this is being painted as something Gatland has pioneered, particularly as you'd wonder would he take the same approach if more than half the team weren't injured?

To be fair, it was Dupont who spotted the open space for Thomas to exploit and the fact that we weren't chasing the kick. It was a good read of the situation but you'd also have to say it was a mistake by us that gave them that opportunity. Thomas is a very skillful winger and once he gets up to speed, he's very hard to stop. Normally we chase kicks to touch to prevent the quick lineout, it was very unusual that only Murray saw the danger.

Webbs

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm not sure about that tbh. Would a rigidly coached team with no player involvement have taken the game to 41 phases and finished with a drop goal to win the game? It seems to me that those are the actions of a squad that believes in problem solving on the pitch and the belief to carry it through.

Or would a less rigidly coached squad have seen what was in front of them and beaten a pretty disorganised french team well before the 80th min?

a quote from the article I think is telling
"Schmidt’s playing structures are lucid and effective, but during my time with England we felt there was a marked drop-off in Ireland’s performance when they were forced out to play outside of those structures."
There are huge similarities between Schmidts style and when Wales played 'warrenball' it comes down to having quality players across the squad who are responding to his structure. Maybe if he loosened up a bit then there could be even greater returns

The Lost Sheep

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You don't need to add more tier 2 teams to the 6 Nations at all. In fact in a calendar that's already packed it probably isn't an option at all.

The answer is to move the top tier under the auspices of Rugby Europe and make it the official top tier of the Rugby Europe Championship. Following each season have a promotion playoff between the team who came last in the 6 Nations and the team who finished first in the Championship (Georgia since 2011).

That creates a pathway all the way from the very bottom of European international rugby (Slovakia currently) all the way to the very top (the glorious nation of Ireland).

This is indeed pie in the sky stuff. There'd be serious financial questions to be answered, it's turkeys voting for christmas. But one day I hope the turkeys will be overthrown and the sport will mature.

We do need to help the other european countries more but how do you make allowances for drop in income from not competing in the 6 nations even for one year? It would be turkeys voting for christmas for a change but when do you ever see turkeys being overthrown in enough countries for a vote to be successful?
Id rather even though this is even less likely for a proper european championship to occur where the georgia's/russia's etc get chance to play in a group of 3/4 with ireland/france etc.

Akrasia wrote: »

Without a couple of top class clubs the national team is dead in the water. They need to start at grassroots and build up a squad of players that can compete at club level, and when they start to do this consistently, then they have earned the right to join the big boys at international level. Until this happens, all talk about elitism is nonsense.

They might consider some kind of international series with the top 6 or 7 2nd tier nations as a way to boost domestic interest in their sport. It would be interesting to see a tournament that had Fiji, Georgia, USA, Canada,Tonga, Japan, Russia competing each year in a world ranking tournament.

I'd watch a lot of those games, they'd be awesome.

They have worked at grassroots but without the income from international rugby they wont be able to get clubs. The talk about elitism isnt nonsense.
There is an international series with the next tier of sides with the american sides competing in a continental championship. The problem with a tournament like that is when and where to host it

Akrasia wrote: »

Elite sport isn't a bad thing. You have to earn the right to compete at an elite level in sport.
Would Italy be a better team if their clubs were performing at a decent level in the pro-14 and European? Absolutely they would, same with Scotland. Poor club performance feeds into a poor national team. The only reason Ireland are where we are, is because the IRFU developed the provincial set up to directly incubate a core of high performance elite players who are focused on performing at the elite club level and international level.

World rugby could be doing more to help develop 2nd tier nations, but the 2nd Tier nations need to step up too and organise themselves to raise their own performance levels so that they can compete at elite level.

You do have to earn the right to compete at an elite level but you must be given proper opportunities to try compete and that isnt necessarily what happens npw.

prawnsambo

Webbs wrote: »

Or would a less rigidly coached squad have seen what was in front of them and beaten a pretty disorganised french team well before the 80th min?

Ah, the French weren't disorganised defensively. They used Nigel's leniency at ruck time to slow our ball down and get their defense aligned. Having said that, we do seem to lack enough good ball carriers to move the point of attack. Ryan, Stander, Henderson and Leavy did the most of the carrying in the pack with Sexton and Aki doing the bulk of it in midfield.

I think if we see Aki and Henshaw switch places and Conan comes in, we could have a lot more strings to our bow to ask questions of defences.

irishbucsfan

For anyone wondering, to save you the bother of looking it up, Nicholas Bishop who wrote that was analyst for Stuart Lancaster when they beat Ireland. So I think he's probably a decently good source on how to beat Schmidt's Ireland, as opposed to a beditched hurler.

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

For anyone wondering, to save you the bother of looking it up, Nicholas Bishop who wrote that was analyst for Stuart Lancaster when they beat Ireland. So I think he's probably a decently good source on how to beat Schmidt's Ireland, as opposed to a beditched hurler.

"Beditched". That's more like it. More of this and no one will have any problem with your posts. :pac:

prawnsambo

I just think that article was a bit of a cherry pick tbh. Contrasting the Welsh and Irish wins on Saturday was very much apples and oranges (to continue the fruity metaphors). Scotland were absolutely abysmal in defence. Wales scored their first try from an intercept and got huge territory for their second from a massive gaping hole in the Scottish defence. In fact the whole game was full of errors on both sides but Wales were just better equipped to deal with them, having a much superior pack.

penybont exile

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If you're Wales, where do you want to take the game? Trench warfare? Garces is ref for what that's worth.

.... out of England's comfort zone [whenever it makes sense to do so].

We just need to play the conditions and what is in front of us. Start fast and put doubt in their minds. The pressure is all on them .... this is a free punch for Wales.

It is also a game we can win if we don't panic.

Our pack can live with their pack .... we've done so before. This is not a game to throw the ball around willy-nilly. Saying that we need to be brave when the chance to run is on .... irrespective of the field position. Defensively we need to get in among their mid-field and put Ford/Farrell under pressure.

If we can lock our scrum and win our line-out I fancy we've a decent chance of upsetting the "1/6" odds currently quoted by most bookies for a home win .....

sydthebeat

Target may, target may, target may!!!!

stephen_n

swiwi_ wrote: »

Food for thought?

Not sure if it will be a coaching evolution, or a player one that brings this about in Ireland. The younger players coming through from 1-15 all seem more comfortable handling the ball, Ryan and Porter being prime examples. Though Joe would have to evolve his style to allow those traits to flourish. Can't see us radically changing our style before the next RWC though.

irishbucsfan

penybont exile wrote: »

.... out of England's comfort zone [whenever it makes sense to do so].

We just need to play the conditions and what is in front of us. Start fast and put doubt in their minds. The pressure is all on them .... this is a free punch for Wales.

It is also a game we can win if we don't panic.

Our pack can live with their pack .... we've done so before. This is not a game to throw the ball around willy-nilly. Saying that we need to be brave when the chance to run is on .... irrespective of the field position. Defensively we need to get in among their mid-field and put Ford/Farrell under pressure.

If we can lock our scrum and win our line-out I fancy we've a decent chance of upsetting the "1/6" odds currently quoted by most bookies for a home win .....

Elvisjuice

prawnsambo wrote: »

Ah, the French weren't disorganised defensively. They used Nigel's leniency at ruck time to slow our ball down and get their defense aligned. Having said that, we do seem to lack enough good ball carriers to move the point of attack. Ryan, Stander, Henderson and Leavy did the most of the carrying in the pack with Sexton and Aki doing the bulk of it in midfield.

I think if we see Aki and Henshaw switch places and Conan comes in, we could have a lot more strings to our bow to ask questions of defences.

leniency lol . He was awful , he is only interested in his own voice these days , any time he goes to tmo , he is telling them his opinion before they even get a chance to see the video .

joseywhales

penybont exile wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If you're Wales, where do you want to take the game?  Trench warfare?  Garces is ref for what that's worth.

.... out of England's comfort zone [whenever it makes sense to do so].

We just need to play the conditions and what is in front of us.  Start fast and put doubt in their minds.  The pressure is all on them .... this is a free punch for Wales.

It is also a game we can win if we don't panic.

Our pack can live with their pack .... we've done so before.  This is not a game to throw the ball around willy-nilly.  Saying that we need to be brave when the chance to run is on .... irrespective of the field position.  Defensively we need to get in among their mid-field and put Ford/Farrell under pressure.

If we can lock our scrum and win our line-out I fancy we've a decent chance of upsetting the "1/6" odds currently quoted by most bookies for a home win .....

Boring but I think field position and not giving away penalties is the key to beating anyone but particularly England, they love their lineout and their set plays.