Czechs go to Ireland, be homeless, get housing.

NollagShona

Gatling wrote: »

Not true on the no handouts situation ,
Hap is supplementing their tent , likely the majority of their rent

A tent???

AlphabetCards

NollagShona wrote: »

So you were on welfare support in another EU country?

Yes, but since you've ignored the detail there's no point in reiterating it again.

NollagShona

AlphabetCards wrote: »

Yes, but since you've ignored the detail there's no point in reiterating it again.

It’s terrible when someone misrepresents the situation is it?

ballsymchugh

Skedaddle wrote: »

Actually, the UK and Ireland are fairly unique in the EU as they don't have any kind of registration system for people moving here. In most EU countries you have to register, usually within 90 days and prove your a job or you're in education, or self-sufficient.

Because neither Ireland nor the UK have ever had the notion of formally registering their own citizens when they move, they don't apply any different rules to EU citizens, so until they appear in the tax or welfare system we have no formal way or recognising they're here at all.

If you move cities in say France or Belgium, you must register with the town hall and make your presence known. That applies whether you're French, Irish, Dutch, Romanian, British, German or any other nationality.

Ireland and the UK are actually rather uniquely probably the absolute model of EU freedom of movement, despite not being in Schengen. The two countries absolutely wholeheartedly embraced the idea that people could move in without fuss or bureaucracy. The same is not true across the 26 other members. You are usually expected to register and provided all sorts of proof of what you're up to.

A lot of the things the Brexiteers complain about were never actually required of them in the first place.

now, now. don't be coming in here with your factual arguments. no one here wants to know that most other EU countries have fairly comprehensive registers and ID systems to know who is living in the area, and that UK and Ireland don't have them because to bring them in would cost too much.

The OP is right in the sense that freedom of movement does mean that if you want to stay in another EU country for longer than 3 months, you have to be able to prove that you can support yourself.

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/explainers/what-eu-freedom-movement

mariaalice

"Thirty years ago, on June 6th 1985, I took the boat from Dun Laoghaire to Holyhead and got the train down to London. I went into the newsagent in the station concourse in Euston and bought a London A to Z to find the way to Rotherhithe, where my mate had a squat. As I flipped through the pages, a dishevelled old lady leaned against the wall beside me, hitched up her skirt and pissed on the ground. Her urine spattered my rucksack. Welcome to London.

I got out of Ireland because I felt restricted. I had a nervous breakdown during my last year in Trinity College in the process of ramming a science degree down my throat, while at the same time realising I had no interest whatever in science. I had done a course involving some filmmaking, and was keen to learn more. I had some friends and an ex-girlfriend in London, so it seemed like the place to go to.

Squat life
Unemployment benefit was generous and Ken Livingstone’s Greater London Council even paid my college fees. I paid the grand sum of £1 for my MA in film studies at St Martin’s School of Art in Covent Garden. There was a thriving squatting subculture which made it possible to survive on a pittance. Everyone was in the same boat".

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/abroad/generation-emigration/anti-irish-sentiment-and-rave-scene-buzz-in-1980s-london-1.2411590

A first person account if anyone is interestd

Ronaldinho

Just read the full article in the paper.

I think it's a great story - the chap was sponsored by Space X for a post-grad on the strength of a bit of work he did for a customer of a computer repair shop he was working in.

It's just my subjective opinion but I didn't get the impression the couple had any sense of entitlement. Seemed grateful for the help given to them and were taking steps to better themselves.

They may be on HAP now but I doubt that will be the case in a few years.

AlphabetCards

NollagShona wrote: »

It’s terrible when someone misrepresents the situation is it?

I'm not sure what you are arguing against in my post. Someone said that unemployment benefit in the UK isn't fantastic for Irish people, and I've agreed and summarised my experiences of it.

mariaalice

Ronaldinho wrote: »

Just read the full article in the paper.

I think it's a great story - the chap was sponsored by Space X for a post-grad on the strength of a bit of work he did for a customer of a computer repair shop he was working in.

It's just my subjective opinion but I didn't get the impression the couple had any sense of entitlement. Seemed grateful for the help given to them and were taking steps to better themselves.

They may be on HAP now but I doubt that will be the case in a few years.

But logic does not come in to it for some posters.

Juran

They get up every morning and go to work, regardless of their pay scale or the amount of tax they pay - I am happy to see my taxes support the EU citizens (or other legal non-EU citizens) who chose to work. They are adding value to the country and contributing society in some form. 
I know Irish friends and relatives who moved to the UK in the 70's and 80's and some had to get a hand-out from the British government when things got difficult (council house, child support, etc.) - but it was only temporary, they got education and found work, got training, skills, etc.. , and soon after, every single one of them found work or started their own companies - some have very good jobs in the NHS, Police Service, banks, etc.. They pay taxes, social security, own their own houses, help out with local charities and local schools, etc.. 

However, I don't agree with our tax money being wasted on the people who don't contribute to society -  travellers and the long term (young and fit) unemployed who have zero intention to find work or up-skill themselves .... and funny thing is - they all seem to be Irish.

weldoninhio

Sonics2k wrote: »

Yeah, it's called inflation and it's happened world wide. It's a total pain in the arse and I'm not a fan of it myself, but you can't blame the EU for it.

Here in Cork City you're looking at nearly €1800 a month for a standard 3 bed house, but the wages haven't gone up.

That has -nothing- to do with the EU. Try again.

Have you ever heard of supply and demand????

biko

I don't see the big deal.
If you are pro-EU then you are also pro-EU citizens moving here and using our system in the same way we can.

bear1

zell12 wrote: »

We don't know if they are paying taxes, even if the article mentions working "Tomas repairing computers at a city-centre shop, and Lucie in a hotel"
It says rent "is €1,300 a month and they get the HAP" inferring later "One day we will have a home, with no HAP and a good job", makes me think it is almost fully subsidised accommodation.

Why are you acting like you do then?

Sonics2k

weldoninhio wrote: »

Have you ever heard of supply and demand????

Yup, and as I said above, it has nothing to do with the EU

Elemonator

Are you suggesting we leave them out in the cold then, because they are Czech?

sameoldname

AlphabetCards wrote: »

Very good, now tell me, did we need minimum wage laws before or after we opened the country up to limitless labour potential, thus driving down wages?

Show me one link that shows a drop in Irish people's wages since the Eastern European nations joined the EU that wasn't caused by a massive world-wide recession? Hell, show me a drop in wages since the late 1980's!

Skedaddle

Doltanian wrote: »

This is just one of the many reasons why I want Ireland to leave the EU. The sooner we Irexit the better

You do realise that a huge % of our economy is based on the fact that we are a good location *in the EU* to do business from. The Irish market itself is very small and we would be cutting ourselves off from half a billion consumers, increasing our costs on a whole load of things, going back to living with a small, unstable currency.

We'd have no immigration, that's for sure, because much like in the good old days, Ireland would be totally unattractive to move to due to a poor economy ad Irish people would be back on the planes and boats to the US and elsewhere.

Ireland's benefited enormously from EU membership over the past few decades and it would simply be wilful economic self-distruction to leave.

Add to that, I (and probably plenty of other people in Ireland) actually like the idea that I can move anywhere in Europe quite easily without any major bureaucratic or visa hurdles to jump through.

I think it would feel incredibly claustrophobic to lose those freedoms.

Also, give those countries 20 years and they'll have caught up with EU norms in terms of standards of living and job opportunities. That's already the case in many of them. Poland for example, may have a bit of a political nonsense going on at the moment with the far right, but the standards of living there since it joined the EU are incomparable to what they were in the early 2000s.

Things even out and wealth spreads around and migration patterns change.

Also think about it the other way too:

Because Ireland was welcoming to so many Poles, Czechs, Bulgarians, Romanians and so on we actually have extended the Irish network way into Eastern Europe in a way that would have been unthinkable 20+ years ago. I know Poles and Czechs and Slovaks and various other nationalities. I've worked with people form those countries. I've found business opportunities based on those networks.

It's not all one way traffic, and it certainly won't be as those countries become serious economic powerhouses - which is very likely in the years to come.

Sometimes opening the door and making connections is a very positive thing.

mariaalice

Skedaddle wrote: »

You do realise that a huge % of our economy is based on the fact that we are a good location *in the EU* to do business from. The Irish market itself is very small and we would be cutting ourselves off from half a billion consumers, increasing our costs on a whole load of things, going back to living with a small, unstable currency.

We'd have no immigration, that's for sure, because much like in the good old days, Ireland would be totally unattractive to move to due to a poor economy ad Irish people would be back on the planes and boats to the US and elsewhere.

Ireland's benefited enormously from EU membership over the past few decades and it would simply be wilful economic self-distruction to leave.

Add to that, I (and probably plenty of other people in Ireland) actually like the idea that I can move anywhere in Europe quite easily without any major bureaucratic or visa hurdles to jump through.

I think it would feel incredibly claustrophobic to lose those freedoms.

Also, give those countries 20 years and they'll have caught up with EU norms in terms of standards of living and job opportunities. That's already the case in many of them. Poland for example, may have a bit of a political nonsense going on at the moment with the far right, but the standards of living there since it joined the EU are incomparable to what they were in the early 2000s.

Things even out and wealth spreads around and migration patterns change.

(1)Logic does not come in to it, they don't want anyone coming here the end much like some of the Trump supporter they don't care if it too their own detriment they do not want anyone coming heat.

or

(2) They can come here to live as long as they are rich or they can be a tourist for a holiday which further sub divides in to they can only come here to live if they are European and rich.

or

(3) To be fair some really are convinced that leaving the EU and stopping people coming will have some economic befits for themselves its hard to know if that is just disguised xenophobia but they have themselves convinced. It is a variant of wanting simple solutions to complex issues.

or

(4) some are just out and out racists.

Guy:Incognito

baylah17 wrote: »

It is and has been oft repeated by the Irish abroad especially in the UK.
Cop on, they were entitled as EU citizens to come here and to be treated in the same way as an Irish citizen would be treated.

The same?

Myself and the missus (and 2 kids) are on the housing list 6 years this year. But I suppose we have a house , just not together. We are both living with out respective mother's. Kids are with here but the house is bad enough without me squeezing in too.

Both of us work.

weldoninhio

Sonics2k wrote: »

Yup, and as I said above, it has nothing to do with the EU

We've X amount of houses in Ireland and Y amount of people in Ireland, unfortunately we also have one of the most generous welfare states in the EU. Being open for the rest of the EU(Z), and not adhering to the 3 months rule, means that X is less than Y+Z. The more demand for something that is in short supply, the more you can charge.

Its 1st year stuff.

ohnonotgmail

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

The same?

Myself and the missus (and 2 kids) are on the housing list 6 years this year. But I suppose we have a house , just not together. We are both living with out respective mother's. Kids are with here but the house is bad enough without me squeezing in too.

Both of us work.

i doubt this couple even got as far as a housing list. they were not given a house. they are renting a small flat on the hap scheme.

Skedaddle

We actually don't have one of the most generous welfare states in the EU. That's one of those things that gets trotted out regularly that just does not stack up in reality.

You also cannot claim welfare here without having worked. They won't even issue you with a PPS number without a job or a reason to have one. It's very much stricter than many people seem to imagine.

Most EU countries, certainly the more wealthy Northern European ones that would be comparable to Ireland economically, have vastly more generous welfare systems backed by much higher social security contributions. Ireland, very much follows the British model. It's not as extreme as the current Tory implementation of that model, but it's very much in the same approach.

If you take what Ireland offers in terms of welfare: flat payments if you lose your job, based on no relationship to your previous income vs say France, which has a maximum of 3 years worth of payments capped at €6,100 a month based on a % of your previous income.

Ireland has an underfunded and grossly dysfunctional public housing system with massive queues and a growing homelessness problem. It's not at all generous here and hasn't even provided basic needs for citizens who find themselves in that position for decades, relying on rent supplement / allowance to fill in the gaps.

Most of Northern Europe doesn't have these problems as they've good planning, regulated housing costs and so on where there are problems. Ireland has none of these things or very few of them anyway.

It's got a healthcare system that is pretty poor on the public side compared to most of Europe. If you're on the public system, you're looking at long waits for access to treatment, even if that treatment is quite high tech. It's often far more difficult to get access to care than it would be in almost any comparable EU country and you would end up needing to take out private insurance to get speedy access.

What Ireland does generally offer is a buoyant employment market (other than during the recession) and lots of opportunities in that regard due to flexibility. A lot of French people for example come to Ireland to get their first job, because it's very hard to get a foot in the door in France without experience and it's relatively easy in Ireland or the UK. They typically then go home and get a proper job in France, that has long terms stability and benefits like proper pension and health provision.

The UK is similar - they're both countries with a notion that the labour force must be 'flexible' which usually means has minimal protections and is very much about being able to hire and fire very easily and offer no job security.

zell12

Skedaddle wrote: »

We actually don't have one of the most generous welfare states in the EU. That's one of those things that gets trotted out regularly that just does not stack up in reality.
You also cannot claim welfare here without having worked. They won't even issue you with a PPS number without a job or a reason to have one. It's very much stricter than many people seem to imagine.
Most EU countries, certainly the more wealthy Northern European ones that would be comparable to Ireland economically, have vastly more generous welfare systems backed by much higher social security contributions. Ireland, very much follows the British model. It's not as extreme as the current Tory implementation of that model, but it's very much in the same approach.

Actually we do. In other countries your welfare gets reduced over time. Here it goes on at the same level indefinitely.

Skedaddle

Social welfare in US$/capita/year (% GDP is meaningless for Ireland)

US$ PPP
Norway: 14,541
Denmark: 13,259
Austria: 13,070
France: 12,356
Sweden: 12,342
Germany: 11,140
Netherlands: 10,974
USA: 9,838
Ireland: 9,621
Spain: 8,635
UK: 8,619
Australia: 8,479
NZ: 7,121

The US figure would slightly surprise a lot of people, but it just shows how badly they distribute it as the payments are largely state based. Some are quite socially aware, some aren't.

Ireland's spending on social welfare services is fairly low compared to most of the wealthier EU countries and a little higher than most Anglosphere countries, other than the USA

On a GDP per capita basis it's only 16.1% vs 21.5% in the UK, but I would argue that our GDP figures are a bit of a distortion anyway.
It's as high as 31.5% of GDP in France and over 27% in a lot of EU countries.

Ireland's certainly not 'mean' with welfare spending, but it's far from the socialist models of a lot of our near neighbours (other than the UK).

goose2005

mariaalice wrote: »

Your post count have been lifted form the UK Mirror of the 1980s except it would be about the Irish in London.

and they were right. Many areas of London which were formerly full of English people are now Irish.

ohnonotgmail

goose2005 wrote: »

and they were right. Many areas of London which were formerly full of English people are now Irish.

well the children of those irish people. who are english because they were born there.

KindOfIrish

zell12 wrote: »

IrishTimes - Former homeless Apollo House residents secure home


This makes me angry.
People came to Ireland in 2015 with limited english, failed to get steady employment, and instead of returning home, we taxpayers fund them to live within the canals. Meantime, irish people suffering the same fate are overlooked or suffer.
In other EU countries, migrants who cannot self-fund are deported to home country.
How oft is this story repeated?

Calm down. Ireland joined EU in 1973 and 45 years on we are still net EU funds recipients. EU, directly or indirectly, has been supporting generations of Irish people. It would be nice to show little bit of gratefulness.

zell12

KindOfIrish wrote: »

Calm down. Ireland joined EU in 1973 and 45 years on we are still net EU funds recipients. EU, directly or indirectly, has been supporting generations of Irish people. It would be nice to show little bit of gratefulness.

We're net contributors since 2016.

NollagShona

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

The same?

Myself and the missus (and 2 kids) are on the housing list 6 years this year. But I suppose we have a house , just not together. We are both living with out respective mother's. Kids are with here but the house is bad enough without me squeezing in too.

Both of us work.

Is this by accident or design? Would you qualify for assisted rent payments?

NollagShona

zell12 wrote: »

We're net contributors since 2016.

Only on 2014, overall we are still net beneficiaries

Chrongen

zell12 wrote: »

IrishTimes - Former homeless Apollo House residents secure home


This makes me angry.
People came to Ireland in 2015 with limited english, failed to get steady employment, and instead of returning home, we taxpayers fund them to live within the canals. Meantime, irish people suffering the same fate are overlooked or suffer.
In other EU countries, migrants who cannot self-fund are deported to home country.
How oft is this story repeated?

You're well within your rights to go to another EU country like the Czech Republic and have Czech taxpayers fund your welfare.