BT Young Scientist - is there something fishy? MOD Note in OP

NIMAN

Its a disgrace Joe.

_Dara_

Wombatman wrote: »

Better screenshot that article from 10 years ago so

Very easy to search for her published articles!

If that article disappeared, I reckon there’s something afoot. All it would take would be someone saying “Hey, that’s my research!” or a runner-up lodging a complaint for it to be investigated.

Arcade_Tryer

Given parents are the most significant explanation for the success of their children's education, it shouldn't be any surprise to see evidence of this at events such as the BT Young Scientist. Not saying there is any evidence in this specific situation per se.

_Dara_

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Given parents are the most significant explanation for the success of their children's education, it shouldn't be any surprise to see evidence of this at events such as the BT Young Scientist. Not saying there is any evidence in this specific situation per se.

Yeah, like I said, it’s never a surprise if the parents are scientifically-inclined but there’s a line that can be crossed in how much help can be given, I’m sure.

Junkyard Tom

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Given parents are the most significant explanation for the success of their children's education, it shouldn't be any surprise to see evidence of this at events such as the BT Young Scientist. Not saying there is any evidence in this specific situation per se.

Well done Arcade_Tryer's Dad! Great post!

Noveight

humpsterfire wrote: »

adolescent dicks

humpsterfire wrote: »

big, secretive, hefty langers swinging pendulously

humpsterfire

Noveight wrote: »

You never wondered why those curtains on stage are always moving around?

Why the students look nervously behind them so much while they accept the awards?

Arcade_Tryer

_Dara_ wrote: »

Yeah, like I said, it’s never a surprise if the parents are scientifically-inclined but there’s a line that can be crossed in how much help can be given, I’m sure.

It's only a Young Scientist competition. Who really cares? The serious issue is the significant variation in children's' success in the standardized education system due to their parent's situation in society.

_Dara_

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

It's only a Young Scientist competition. Who really cares? The serious issue is the significant variation in children's' success in the standardized education system due to their parent's situation in society.

There’s quite significant prize money, especially for a teenager.

sullivlo

As somebody who has:
- won the young scientist myself
- supervised/mentored a project that won two significant prizes
- worked at the young scientist
- provided assistance with reagents/equipment to projects over the years
- judged at science competitions

... I have some strong opinions on this topic, and am in a good position to comment.

Is it suspicious? Absolutely.

Is there a chance that parents/teachers had a say in the project? Yes.

Are there students out there that are just amazing and use their own initiative and contacts to get help? 100%.

When my students won, I was gobsmacked at the list of people that they had contacted for help. Not for the people to do the experiment, but for help with a technique or a technical aspect of the project. In the same way that when I was in academia I would help students who contacted me.

At the event, students are subjected to judging by experts in a field, and they are grilled to ensure that they did the work themselves, and it is quickly very obvious as to what they actually did and what anybody else did.

I spoke this years winner during the week. I did a postdoc position on a similar project so I had a genuine interest in it, and a good knowledge of the techniques he used. The kid is great, and he 100% did the work himself. Did his family help? Absolutely. His family inspired him through discussion, and would have aided him in his choice of interest by discussing their own work at home over the years.

There were several other incredible projects on display this year. Projects that, on paper, were better than the winning projects. But within two minutes it was obvious to anyone with any significant science background that somebody else did the work.

Sometimes people just have a passion for it, and they know what to do and they do it. When I won, it was in a field unfamiliar to my teacher, so it was my own/my groups work. When my students won, I felt like a fraud when people congratulated me, because my function was to sign the forms and proof read their work as I hadn’t a clue what they were up to. When students would cold-call me and ask if they could use something in the lab, the answer was always yes, and I would help them in any way that I could.

In conclusion/TL/DR: it is suspicious, but from experience sometimes kids are just *that* good at science.

job seeker

sullivlo wrote: »

As somebody who has:
- won the young scientist myself
- supervised/mentored a project that won two significant prizes
- worked at the young scientist
- provided assistance with reagents/equipment to projects over the years
- judged at science competitions

... I have some strong opinions on this topic, and am in a good position to comment.

Is it suspicious? Absolutely.

Is there a chance that parents/teachers had a say in the project? Yes.

Are there students out there that are just amazing and use their own initiative and contacts to get help? 100%.

When my students won, I was gobsmacked at the list of people that they had contacted for help. Not for the people to do the experiment, but for help with a technique or a technical aspect of the project. In the same way that when I was in academia I would help students who contacted me.

At the event, students are subjected to judging by experts in a field, and they are grilled to ensure that they did the work themselves, and it is quickly very obvious as to what they actually did and what anybody else did.

I spoke this years winner during the week. I did a postdoc position on a similar project so I had a genuine interest in it, and a good knowledge of the techniques he used. The kid is great, and he 100% did the work himself. Did his family help? Absolutely. His family inspired him through discussion, and would have aided him in his choice of interest by discussing their own work at home over the years.

There were several other incredible projects on display this year. Projects that, on paper, were better than the winning projects. But within two minutes it was obvious to anyone with any significant science background that somebody else did the work.

Sometimes people just have a passion for it, and they know what to do and they do it. When I won, it was in a field unfamiliar to my teacher, so it was my own/my groups work. When my students won, I felt like a fraud when people congratulated me, because my function was to sign the forms and proof read their work as I hadn’t a clue what they were up to. When students would cold-call me and ask if they could use something in the lab, the answer was always yes, and I would help them in any way that I could.

In conclusion/TL/DR: it is suspicious, but from experience sometimes kids are just *that* good at science.

Grand! He cheated!

Let's form an angry mob!

_Dara_

sullivlo wrote: »

As somebody who has:
- won the young scientist myself
- supervised/mentored a project that won two significant prizes
- worked at the young scientist
- provided assistance with reagents/equipment to projects over the years
- judged at science competitions

... I have some strong opinions on this topic, and am in a good position to comment.

Is it suspicious? Absolutely.

Is there a chance that parents/teachers had a say in the project? Yes.

Are there students out there that are just amazing and use their own initiative and contacts to get help? 100%.

When my students won, I was gobsmacked at the list of people that they had contacted for help. Not for the people to do the experiment, but for help with a technique or a technical aspect of the project. In the same way that when I was in academia I would help students who contacted me.

At the event, students are subjected to judging by experts in a field, and they are grilled to ensure that they did the work themselves, and it is quickly very obvious as to what they actually did and what anybody else did.

I spoke this years winner during the week. I did a postdoc position on a similar project so I had a genuine interest in it, and a good knowledge of the techniques he used. The kid is great, and he 100% did the work himself. Did his family help? Absolutely. His family inspired him through discussion, and would have aided him in his choice of interest by discussing their own work at home over the years.

There were several other incredible projects on display this year. Projects that, on paper, were better than the winning projects. But within two minutes it was obvious to anyone with any significant science background that somebody else did the work.

Sometimes people just have a passion for it, and they know what to do and they do it. When I won, it was in a field unfamiliar to my teacher, so it was my own/my groups work. When my students won, I felt like a fraud when people congratulated me, because my function was to sign the forms and proof read their work as I hadn’t a clue what they were up to. When students would cold-call me and ask if they could use something in the lab, the answer was always yes, and I would help them in any way that I could.

In conclusion/TL/DR: it is suspicious, but from experience sometimes kids are just *that* good at science.

Thanks for the info!

sullivlo

job seeker wrote: »

Grand! He cheated!

Let's form an angry mob!

I don’t know how you got that from my post.

Turtwig

sullivlo wrote: »

I don’t know how you got that from my post.

I think that was Saddam er sarcasm?

suicide_circus

sullivlo wrote: »

I don’t know how you got that from my post.

You're an insider - not objective.

sullivlo

suicide_circus wrote: »

You're an insider - not objective.

I think that I am probably more objective because I actually know the mechanics of the process. I will be the first to admit that there are projects that are not done by the students, but I also said that these projects don’t win because they’re picked up on by the judges.

job seeker

sullivlo wrote: »

I don’t know how you got that from my post.

:pac:

Ah, I was messing!

I read your post! It was interesting to get someones view, who was that much involved in the BT competition.

I am wondering though, is there any rules which exist, that outline how much help may be provided to the students?

suicide_circus

sullivlo wrote: »

I think that I am probably more objective because I actually know the mechanics of the process. I will be the first to admit that there are projects that are not done by the students, but I also said that these projects don’t win because they’re picked up on by the judges.

If you say so. You taught a former winner so you do have skin in the game, so to speak.

sullivlo

job seeker wrote: »

:pac:

Ah, I was messing!

I read your post! It was interesting to get someones view, who was that much involved in the BT competition.

I am wondering though, is there any rules which exist, that outline how much help may be provided to the students?

Yeah there are guidelines that list what help they can get from an external source, and everything has to be fully documented. Any time I helped a group out I had to write a letter outlining who in the project did what, and exactly what role I played in it. Like did I supply reagents, did I teach them the method, and what level of engagement I had with them in analysis of results etc. Again, from the process it’s fairly obvious to the judges what was done by the students.

sullivlo

suicide_circus wrote: »

If you say so. You taught a former winner so you do have skin in the game, so to speak.

Yes, I taught a former winner.

My field of expertise is biology. My students project was in the chemical/physical/maths section and involves a lot of computing and numbers. I struggle with doing html “coding” when trying to make something bold or italics on boards. I was no help to the students, beyond proof reading and writing the teacher evaluation of them.

I was also a former winner, and therefore I know the process from both sides, and we certainly didn’t have others to do the experiment for us. And we had lots of judges call to us to ask us a variety of questions to try catch us out.

NIMAN

Thinly veiled "I am smarter than you" posts from Sullivlo !!

Only joking btw.

Sam Quentin

My grandfather was a great carpenter, my dad was a great carpenter.. And now apparently I'm a great carpenter!?
Just saying....

diomed

Year School
1995 Abbey Grammar School, Newry
1993 Abbey Grammar School, Newry, Co. Down

1977 Colaiste Mhuire, Dublin
1972 Coláiste Mhuire, Baile Atha Cliath

2013 Kinsale Community School, Cork
2006 Kinsale Community School, County Cork
2009 Kinsale Community School, County Cork

1999 Scoil Mhuire Gan Smál, Blarney
2010 Scoil Mhuire Gan Smál, Blarney, County Cork

1975 St Finian’s College, Mullingar, Co. Westmeath
2003 St Finnian's College, Mullingar, County Westmeath

2004 Synge Street CBS, Dublin
2007 Synge Street CBS, Dublin
2012 Synge Street CBS, Dublin


43 years of the contest, 14 won by multiple school winners.
723 secondary schools in Ireland.

diomed

Jim Cooke, teacher at Synge Street CBS
"During his time there, he achieved unrivalled acclaim for his mentoring of students through the Young Scientist competition including two overall winners and three 2nd places." Wiki

NIMAN

I think we need a Prime Time investigation into this scandal.

This could rock the country to its core.

diomed

Kinsale Community School
Three winners: plant germination; food spoilage; milk production.

James 007

NIMAN wrote: »

I think we need a Prime Time investigation into this scandal.

This could rock the country to its core.

Genuinely?

Arghus

James 007 wrote: »

Genuinely?

I'm guessing no.

B.A._Baracus

Never really thought about how they could be cheating. Does make sense tho as how good could you really be in your teenage years. Maybe once in a blue moon you get the next Einstein but generally? Nah.

That said couldn't really care. Near enough everything in this world is a con / wool pulled over your eyes / you know yourself.

patchyamac

_Dara_ wrote: »

Hmmm, that’s strange. Why remove that if there’s nothing to hide? Normal for pictures of the winners and their parents to appear in the media.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Cork-does-it-again-Simons-discovery-wins-Young-Scientist-Exhibition-8796cb4c-bec5-4359-a358-5b5f7c25982d-ds