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Please hold on, the bus is about to move

  • 13-01-2018 7:20pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 637
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    While I know that London is often seen as a shining beacon of how to adopt existing practices to improve public transport in Ireland, please don't copy their latest greatest idea, which has been wrecking many a head since approximately yesterday. Particularly as it gets announced after each stop and usually some time after the bus has started moving...



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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,347 Rackstar
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    Sure what harm


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,744 devnull
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    That's ridiculous and no need for it - what is worse is that the bus sounds like it's about to fall apart (typical for an Enviro 400) and the announcement happens after the bus starts moving.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,038 Wishbone Ash
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    Probably required by their insurance company to reduce claims from passengers seeking damages from falls as they weren't informed that the bus was about to move off. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,644 punisher5112
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    It's ridiculous....

    People I believe are getting stupider as years go by.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 Gatling
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    It's ridiculous....

    People I believe are getting stupider as years go by.

    Probably down to the amount of people who made claims using the excuse they were unaware the bus was about to move


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 Fred Swanson
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    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 lifeandtimes
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    Well to be fair anytime I get on the bus and go upstairs the bus driver doesn't give you a second before they floor it and that sends you flying back. I've lost count the amount of times I've had to catch my kids who fell back even when they were holding the railings.

    There's no excuse not to wait the extra 5 seconds as they can see on the camera when people are up the stairs and this is probably why theu have to alert people now


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,644 punisher5112
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    Well to be fair anytime I get on the bus and go upstairs the bus driver doesn't give you a second before they floor it and that sends you flying back. I've lost count the amount of times I've had to catch my kids who fell back even when they were holding the railings.

    There's no excuse not to wait the extra 5 seconds as they can see on the camera when people are up the stairs and this is probably why theu have to alert people now

    Just think about that.... 5 seconds and 100 stops as in Dublin they're ever 50 to 100 meters your bus would take an age to get there.

    If you have kids or are in any way disabled or have a hard time balancing then upstairs isn't really the best place to be going.

    Luas closed doors and moves, dart is the same, trains no different so I really can't fathom why people find it so difficult on a bus which is as its nature the most at risk of having to stop suddenly or even at the extreme swerve.

    Hold handrails at all times and if kids are very small don't feel bad asking the driver do they mind giving a few seconds to sort the kids as most really wouldn't mind as so much is going on it can be difficult to notice kids and ones that may have difficulty.

    Drivers of buses have an extremely difficult job and have to watch out for so much it is in no way easy or anything close to driving a car.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 lifeandtimes
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    If you have kids or are in any way disabled or have a hard time balancing then upstairs isn't really the best place to be going.

    Luas closed doors and moves, dart is the same, trains no different so I really can't fathom why people find it so difficult on a bus which is as its nature the most at risk of having to stop suddenly or even at the extreme swerve

    These are all flat vehicles, I'm talling about when you are going up the stairs,The kids are fine at it, it's just the intials jerk from the bus driver flooring it while your walking up the stairs, it's knocks anyone off their balance
    Hold handrails at all times and if kids are very small don't feel bad asking the driver do they mind giving a few seconds to sort the kids as most really wouldn't mind as so much is going on it can be difficult to notice kids and ones that may have difficulty.
    Just think about that.... 5 seconds and 100 stops as in Dublin they're ever 50 to 100 meters your bus would take an age to get there.

    I don't know if you realise but you've pretty much validated my point and contradicted your own?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,644 punisher5112
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    These are all flat vehicles, I'm talling about when you are going up the stairs,The kids are fine at it, it's just the intials jerk from the bus driver flooring it while your walking up the stairs, it's knocks anyone off their balance





    I don't know if you realise but you've pretty much validated my point and contradicted your own?

    I give up


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 lifeandtimes
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    I give up

    That's fine.

    I was just making a point about drivers flooring it while people are walking up stairs.

    Anything other than that is fine as its easier to keep balancs on an even ground

    Have a good evening


  • Posts: 11,614 [Deleted User]
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    Just think about that.... 5 seconds and 100 stops as in Dublin they're ever 50 to 100 meters your bus would take an age to get there.

    5 seconds...100 stops. Would add 8.3 minutes to the entire journey time. Hardly "take an age" territory.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,183 martingriff
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    It also could be for people who are visually impaired like elevators saying the floor or if it's up or down, the dimples on the ground on paths to show a lower edge


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 Stephen15
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    Probably required by their insurance company to reduce claims from passengers seeking damages from falls as they weren't informed that the bus was about to move off. :rolleyes:

    That's a TFL annoucement not an BOC annoucements. I'm not entirely how litigation works in the UK but I would imagine that the BOC would get the blame in a accident not TFL.

    On a side note we should hate these compo seeking idiots on public transport they drive up fares, create stupid regulations and delay us as they fall hurt themselves an ambulance is called hence delaying the service.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 970 rushfan
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    Well to be fair anytime I get on the bus and go upstairs the bus driver doesn't give you a second before they floor it and that sends you flying back. I've lost count the amount of times I've had to catch my kids who fell back even when they were holding the railings.


    I got on the 42 bus once, on 42nd St in NYC, the driver didn't move until anyone infirm or elderly was seated. I was impressed. Should be commonplace.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,644 punisher5112
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    rushfan wrote: »
    I got on the 42 bus once, on 42nd St in NYC, the driver didn't move until anyone infirm or elderly was seated. I was impressed. Should be commonplace.

    It is common place.... Drivers are taught this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,580 Victor
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    Luas closed doors and moves, dart is the same, trains no different so I really can't fathom why people find it so difficult on a bus
    Trams and trains, being restricted by rails and high inertia, don't move like buses.
    which is as its nature the most at risk of having to stop suddenly or even at the extreme swerve.
    But buses needs to 'swerve' when they pull off to get into traffic.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,409 Nomis21
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    I was a London bus driver on the No 16 route from Cricklewood to Victoria.

    Try pulling out from a bus stop on the Edgware Road in London and see if anyone will let you out! You go for it when you see a weak driver or just push out when you can, if you can. Never mind who is climbing the stairs!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,644 punisher5112
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    Victor wrote: »
    Trams and trains, being restricted by rails and high inertia, don't move like buses.

    But buses needs to 'swerve' when they pull off to get into traffic.

    So exactly my point one should be prepared no matter what for a bumpy, hard braking excitable ride


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 Stephen15
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    devnull wrote: »
    That's ridiculous and no need for it - what is worse is that the bus sounds like it's about to fall apart (typical for an Enviro 400) and the announcement happens after the bus starts moving.

    Are the newer ones still like that I wonder. The 400H espeically looks like a nice bus to be fair I wouldn't mind if the NTA ordered a few for here.

    The older ones are basically a sexed up ALX400 and I agree the ones here in Dublin are real boneshakers and I'm looking forward to seeing the back of them however the inner bus enthusiast comes out in me when I travel on one on a wet as they have that olympian smell.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 MGWR
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    rushfan wrote: »
    I got on the 42 bus once, on 42nd St in NYC, the driver didn't move until anyone infirm or elderly was seated. I was impressed. Should be commonplace.
    That would be route M42, right? The NYC buses have alpha prefixes that denote which borough the route serves primarily, those being M for Manhattan, B for Brooklyn, Bx for Bronx, Q for Queens and S for Staten Island, with X denoting special express bus routes that run between Manhattan and the other boroughs. The bus cannot move while eldelry/infirm have not been seated, and there are some seats on the bus that require passengers to give up for those people too.

    Just for the record, the M42 was a few years ago cited as one of Manhattan's slowest bus routes, suffering from an average speed of 3.4 miles per hour. That would be, IMHO, thanks to the awful amount of traffic that would be going from the Lincoln Tunnel to the Queens Midtown Tunnel (and vice versa that uses local streets thanks to the Mid-Manhattan Expressway not getting built due to complaints from NIMBYs. (Sometimes those elevated motorways are a wise decision.)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 suicide_circus
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    Compo culture - the gift that keeps on giving.

    It's like the escalator in T1 Dublin Airport which plays a message on a loop telling people to hold on to the hand rail.

    No one is responsible for their own safety anymore. The infantilisation of society.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 910 XPS_Zero
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    Compo culture - the gift that keeps on giving.

    It's like the escalator in T1 Dublin Airport which plays a message on a loop telling people to hold on to the hand rail.

    No one is responsible for their own safety anymore. The infantilisation of society.

    Were raising a generation (which I'm embarrassed to be a member of) where a large section (thankfully, contrary to myth, not the majority) protest the mere notion of someone with an opinion they disagree with having the right to speak on their campus. Where in the social media sphere there is no longer such a thing as a good faith disagreement, everyone who does not agree with you is automatically the lowest form of puerile sc-m and a bad person. We live in a world where kids are told not to run on the playground because of insurance claims, where there have to be actual signs in a train bathroom saying "don't leave your infant unattended on the changing table" :confused:, where there are "no hitting back" policies in schools and the idea of "be careful and watch where you are going" has been replaced by "i have a right to compensation based on a sliding scale any time I have an accident". Thankfully we havn't got the participation trophy's here yet but I'm sure they're on the way.

    We've taken the very reasonable idea that we should be more considerate of other peoples feelings, mental health etc and gone so far to the extreme with it that there are some who want to wrap the world in bubble wrap.

    "Hold the handrails" should be common sense. I agree the acceleration is pretty extreme when you are going up those stairs but if you hold the rail you'll be ok. It used to be that busses and trains didn't have enough but since the train refits and new busses there are plenty of hand rails to grip.

    If were getting into the territory of "hold on the bus is about to move" we may as well go the full whack:
    "wipe your runny nose"
    "don't forget to brush your teeth"
    "remember to eat carbohydrates with every meal"
    "get your flu shot"
    "do not cross the road until the green man shows"
    "do not leave your toddler alone with a lighter"

    I'm all for a welfare state, I'd go full on Scandinavian, but can we not have a nanny state? please?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,088 _Kaiser_
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    To be fair, the announcement is probably overkill and poorly implemented, but I agree with posters above - it's a reflection of the "everything that happens to me is someone else's fault" society we live in.

    On bus drivers lurching off from a standstill - very common, as is other fun activities like going too fast over speed ramps, or swerving between traffic islands meant to slow traffic as though they're trying to beat their lap time (the whole stretch between Northside SC and the Darndale Road on the 27 was/is terrible for this) :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,249 magentis
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    5 seconds...100 stops. Would add 8.3 minutes to the entire journey time. Hardly "take an age" territory.

    Tell that to the people waiting for the return bus in the rain wondering why their bus is almost 10 mins late,or if the driver is doing 3 journeys,25 mins late on the last journey.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,249 magentis
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    There is little or no dwell time on the majority of routes.It appears that most were timed by someone with an out of service bus in the early hours of Sunday morning.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,744 devnull
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    magentis wrote: »
    There is little or no dwell time on the majority of routes.It appears that most were timed by someone with an out of service bus in the early hours of Sunday morning.

    Clearly you are not talking about Dublin as dwell time in Dublin is the highest by far of any capital city I have been in, especially in the city center where it is chronic.

    Besides it's not going to add any more time on in London anyway in regards to dwell time since the announcements are not playing until AFTER the bus has started moving.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,744 devnull
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    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Are the newer ones still like that I wonder. The 400H espeically looks like a nice bus to be fair I wouldn't mind if the NTA ordered a few for here.

    All of the original Enviro 400s are like that, every single one of them suffers from an extremely poorly designed pole system and an extremely poorly designed destination display back cover that makes them rattle - it's major selling points were that it was fuel efficient, lightweight and cheaper than other products.

    The newer Enviro 400 MMC is certainly better. Nothing will beat the original Gemini VG/GT model but ultimately that bus was a heavy one and operators would far rather have a lighter bus that's cheaper to buy and uses less fuel than a better built one hence why the SG moved in the lightweight direction.

    In any case, they are also testing some other features on the Enviro 400 vehicles in London and some more announcements, such as the one that is saying: "For your child's safety please remain with your buggy"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,205 hmmm
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    All these automated announcements are doing is making public transport even more unpleasant.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,744 devnull
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    I support the idea of having stop names there but the rest of stuff is unnecessary.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 Stephen15
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    devnull wrote: »
    I support the idea of having stop names there but the rest of stuff is unnecessary.

    It's generally far too long winded. I do think passengers should be told to exit at the middle doors on the SG/GT class as it has not yet entered some people to exit at the middle doors.

    But the whole 'Please exit bus at centre doors, ramp exit only at front door' followed by As Gaelige is far too long winded. All other announcements other than stops are unessecary.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,088 _Kaiser_
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    Stephen15 wrote: »
    It's generally far too long winded. I do think passengers should be told to exit at the middle doors on the SG/GT class as it has not yet entered some people to exit at the middle doors.

    Are they actually being used by drivers more often than not now so that it'd be the expected norm - I'm guessing not.

    Also having a fleet where a significant percentage of the vehicles were (stupidly - especially in the case of the tri-axle VT's) bought with single doors doesn't help adoption.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 Stephen15
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    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Are they actually being used by drivers more often than not now so that it'd be the expected norm - I'm guessing not.

    Also having a fleet where a significant percentage of the vehicles were (stupidly - especially in the case of the tri-axle VT's) bought with single doors doesn't help adoption.

    Because the GT/SG buses were bought by the NTA not DB and it's one of the things they want. All the rest of the DB fleet were bought by DB and DB don't want dual door buses due to potential litigation issues and similar union issues that's why the older buses don't have dual doors because DB don't want them and retrofitting them would be too expensive.

    Anyway all the single door buses will be withdrawn or moved to tours etc. in the next 5-7 years I would imagine so it they will no longer be an issue. The thing is though most of the older DB owned single door buses are currently used on the local routes which will tendered out to GAD these routes are generally quieter and don't require the extra door at most times. These routes will have newer the GTs and SGs aswell the single deckers ordered by the NTA for them meaning that the older buses may end up on busy core cross city routes due to DB having newer buses from their fleet removed. I'd rather an AX or an EV on the 63 or the 111 than on the 145 or the 46a.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,744 devnull
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    Stephen15 wrote: »
    These routes will have newer the GTs and SGs aswell the single deckers ordered by the NTA for them meaning that the older buses may end up on busy core cross city routes due to DB having newer buses from their fleet removed. I'd rather an AX or an EV on the 63 or the 111 than on the 145 or the 46a.

    Not going to happen because every single bus that is transferred to Go-Ahead which will be a mix of ages from 2012-2017 is going to be replaced in the Dublin Bus fleet with a brand new 2018 SG.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 Stephen15
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    devnull wrote: »
    Not going to happen because every single bus that is transferred to Go-Ahead which will be a mix of ages from 2012-2017 is going to be replaced in the Dublin Bus fleet with a brand new 2018 SG.

    So where will the older buses end up


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,537 Cookie_Monster
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    So when are they going to add the announcement for the bus braking? No sense in having just accel notices....
    does it make the same notice pulling off from light etc or just stops?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,644 punisher5112
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    So when are they going to add the announcement for the bus braking? No sense in having just accel notices....
    does it make the same notice pulling off from light etc or just stops?

    Why is it that anyone thinks this is the right way to go.

    Most have headphones on and even if they don't they are so busy on their phone they don't have a clue what's going on around them. This includes any sounds as they so fixed on their phone.

    If people are getting a bus they should unless they are extremely dim or thicker then ever know it's going to actually have to move to get them to their destination but it will unfortunately have to slow, stop, turn and so on.


    Once a passenger boards a bus they accept all terms and this also includes the company bye-laws.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,345 NUTLEY BOY
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    hmmm wrote: »
    All these automated announcements are doing is making public transport even more unpleasant.

    And confusing. I still hear that if I get off the DART at Dun Laoghaire I can connect to ferry services.

    Also, on a visual level, I was on a DART before Christmas where the indicator board showed that we were going in the opposite direction. Heaven help the tourists.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,644 punisher5112
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    NUTLEY BOY wrote: »
    And confusing. I still hear that if I get off the DART at Dun Laoghaire I can connect to ferry services.

    And for your safety this train has cc...... Misses TV at the end.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 Fred Swanson
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    This post has been deleted.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,644 punisher5112
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    There is no need for the route number/name after each stop.

    I would disagree as so many do actually get on as they look at the rtpi board and just board any bus that pulls in.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,345 NUTLEY BOY
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    I will have to dig out one of my old law books on tort. I am almost sure that I read English case law to say that the driver of an "omnibus" is not under a duty to warn passengers before moving off.

    At a practical level what do passengers actually expect reasonably ? The nature of buses, especially double-deckers, is such that erratic movements are wholly to be expected when taking off from and landing in to a bus stop. That is why Dublin Bus announcements and messages about holding on to rails whilst moving through the bus are actually very helpful.

    Passengers have responsibilities too. I love the ones who still insist on reading their mobile screens whilst skating through the bus and who then look like off-balance staggering drunks when the bus moves off :rolleyes:

    As a matter of driving practice I have noticed that most Dublin Bus drivers are quite attentive to NOT moving off whilst obviously infirm people are still moving towards a seat. That is not easy at rush-hour where visibility down the bus can be limited (even allowing for the on-board CCTV).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,537 Cookie_Monster
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    Why is it that anyone thinks this is the right way to go.

    oh, I don't at all. It's ridiculous.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,537 Cookie_Monster
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    I would disagree as so many do actually get on as they look at the rtpi board and just board any bus that pulls in.

    Then idiots like that deserve to end up in some random housing estate and not where they wanted to go. How basic is it to actually check the front of the bus pulling up?!?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,644 punisher5112
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    Then idiots like that deserve to end up in some random housing estate and not where they wanted to go. How basic is it to actually check the front of the bus pulling up?!?

    They tend to have a go at the driver I have come across it numerous times.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 AlekSmart
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    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    Were raising a generation (which I'm embarrassed to be a member of) where a large section (thankfully, contrary to myth, not the majority) protest the mere notion of someone with an opinion they disagree with having the right to speak on their campus. Where in the social media sphere there is no longer such a thing as a good faith disagreement, everyone who does not agree with you is automatically the lowest form of puerile sc-m and a bad person. We live in a world where kids are told not to run on the playground because of insurance claims, where there have to be actual signs in a train bathroom saying "don't leave your infant unattended on the changing table" :confused:, where there are "no hitting back" policies in schools and the idea of "be careful and watch where you are going" has been replaced by "i have a right to compensation based on a sliding scale any time I have an accident". Thankfully we havn't got the participation trophy's here yet but I'm sure they're on the way.

    We've taken the very reasonable idea that we should be more considerate of other peoples feelings, mental health etc and gone so far to the extreme with it that there are some who want to wrap the world in bubble wrap.

    "Hold the handrails" should be common sense. I agree the acceleration is pretty extreme when you are going up those stairs but if you hold the rail you'll be ok. It used to be that busses and trains didn't have enough but since the train refits and new busses there are plenty of hand rails to grip.

    If were getting into the territory of "hold on the bus is about to move" we may as well go the full whack:
    "wipe your runny nose"
    "don't forget to brush your teeth"
    "remember to eat carbohydrates with every meal"
    "get your flu shot"
    "do not cross the road until the green man shows"
    "do not leave your toddler alone with a lighter"

    I'm all for a welfare state, I'd go full on Scandinavian, but can we not have a nanny state? please?

    Thankfully XPS_Zero,your views on "Common Sense" relating to boarding double deck buses in Dublin is strongly endorsed and upheld by the Court of Appeal.....

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/woman-who-fell-after-dublin-bus-moved-off-before-she-sat-down-loses-claim-35269376.html

    A unanimous verdict of the CoA laid down some significant precedence markers for this kind of stuff.
    It was "utterly unreasonable and unrealistic" to impose a duty of care requiring Dublin Bus drivers to check passengers are securely in their seats before driving off, Mr Justice Michael Peart said.

    To require the driver not to drive away until he was satisfied Ms McGarr had reached the top of the stairs would impose an “impossible” standard of care that “completely ignores the realities of modern day bus travel”.

    Dublin Bus was also entitled to assume “common knowledge” that buses, because of their sheer size and the volumes of traffic they typically travel in the city, “tend to sway and lurch a bit”, even when driven with great care, he said.

    People know this, and know they need to hold onto the rails provided when standing on either of the decks or moving around, he said.

    Good man Judge Peart,a bit of balance,figuratively or otherwise, never hurt anybody.

    In this particular case,the Court also had the benefit of comprehensive CCTV evidence which flatly contradicted the claimant's version of events...
    Drivers are required to take “reasonable care” and the evidence in this case, including from CCTV footage, was the driver did not move forward in any abrupt, sudden or violent manner, he said.

    The Busdriver,in this case,also benefitted from the skill and dexterity of other passengers......
    Mr Justice Peart said he and the other members of the court had viewed the CCTV footage carefully and agreed with the High Court findings. The footage showed, at the time Ms McGarr fell, a male passenger continued to drink undisturbed from a can, :eek: he noted.

    Either way,a Court of Appeal decision on a High Court judgement,is a slam-dunk in terms of the levels of proof required for future claims in this area...;)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,663 john boye
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    Quote:
    Mr Justice Peart said he and the other members of the court had viewed the CCTV footage carefully and agreed with the High Court findings. The footage showed, at the time Ms McGarr fell, a male passenger continued to drink undisturbed from a can, he noted.

    I'll bet he didn't spill a drop either!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,345 NUTLEY BOY
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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,249 magentis
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    devnull wrote: »
    Clearly you are not talking about Dublin as dwell time in Dublin is the highest by far of any capital city I have been in, especially in the city center where it is chronic.

    Besides it's not going to add any more time on in London anyway in regards to dwell time since the announcements are not playing until AFTER the bus has started moving.

    So you feel that the dwell time allowed on the timetable is excessive for Dublin bus routes then?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,744 devnull
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    magentis wrote: »
    So you feel that the dwell time allowed on the timetable is excessive for Dublin bus routes then?

    Yes - because in Europe dwell time is normally far less than it is in Dublin - less dwell time equals a cheaper to run bus service since a bus can complete a route in a quicker amount of time, which will attract more people to public transport.

    One of my commuting legs was previously O'Connell Street to Ballsbridge and half the journey time was waiting at bus stops for minutes at a time for everyone to get on and off.


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