Should religious paraphernalia be removed from polling stations on the day of voting?

Oldtree

Never thought about it, nor bothered me before, but with the upcoming sensitive referendum, it seems to me to be prudent to remove, not just bibles and crosses, but everything, turning all the polling stations into uniform blank office like areas.

It would also be prudent imo to change the locations of polling stations to the local Hall, rather than the school, as the study referred to in the article indicates that polling in schools can indirectly affect the result, even in less contentious referendum.

http://www.thejournal.ie/bible-referendum-3791712-Jan2018/

https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/working-papers/can-where-people-vote-influence-how-they-vote-influence-polling

vicwatson

And that closing schools for the day mularkey needs to stop too, just have voting on a Saturday. End of.

Water John

I presume the Bible is present, for people to swear (christians) as to who they are, if the need arises? What happens for other faiths and those of none?
do Muslims swear on the Koran?

The purpose of why it's there, is key, not its presence. Yes, a common swearing non religious oath, would remove the requirement.
BTW, see a lot of people, over the years, swearing on the Bible at Tribunals etc. Didn't seem to affect, many of them. Those who wished to, lied, without batting an eyelid.

Mrs OBumble

Oldtree wrote: »

.

It would also be prudent imo to change the locations of polling stations to the local Hall, rather than the school,

And how many places in Ireland actually have such a hall, thats not attached to a church or a school?

Stonedpilot

No. Right bunch of sensitive whingebags these atheists. Is that ALL they have worry about taking offense to a bible?.
Well for some.

What is sacred about voting anyway?.
It's meaningless in my view, the State does as it pleases. Remember the Lisbon treaty vote when the public voted the "wrong" way as such?.
Gimme a break.

Hector Bellend

No.

Turn Up.

Vote.

Go Home.

Bubbaclaus

Stonedpilot wrote: »

What is sacred about voting anyway?.
It's meaningless in my view, the State does as it pleases. Remember the Lisbon treaty vote when the public voted the "wrong" way as such?.
Gimme a break.

You mean the Lisbon treaty which we voted 'No' to initially due to specific concerns on a few sections, which was then amended in consideration of those concerns and a vote put to us for the updated one that had fixed the issues? What was wrong with that exactly?

Oldtree

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

And how many places in Ireland actually have such a hall, thats not attached to a church or a school?

We have one here not attached. But I get your point. Community center or other room then, wouldn't be too difficult to sort out.

eviltwin

If you are the type of person to have your mind changed on polling day because you see a Bible or whatnot you probably shouldn't be allowed vote in the first place.

Anyway I don't think it's going to matter if like me you have to walk past a church or two to get to your polling station

Oldtree

Water John wrote: »

I presume the Bible is present, for people to swear (christians) as to who they are, if the need arises? What happens for other faiths and those of none?
do Muslims swear on the Koran?

The purpose of why it's there, is key, not its presence. Yes, a common swearing non religious oath, would remove the requirement.
BTW, see a lot of people, over the years, swearing on the Bible at Tribunals etc. Didn't seem to affect, many of them. Those who wished to, lied, without batting an eyelid.

Good point. Have an Id requirement only, qed.

Oldtree

Stonedpilot wrote: »

No. Right bunch of sensitive whingebags these atheists. Is that ALL they have worry about taking offense to a bible?.
Well for some.

What is sacred about voting anyway?.
It's meaningless in my view, the State does as it pleases. Remember the Lisbon treaty vote when the public voted the "wrong" way as such?.
Gimme a break.

I don't think is scared about voting, more taking away a point of influence. Much like the politicians no longer being able to have their buddies standing outside the polling stations on polling day.

Oldtree

eviltwin wrote: »

If you are the type of person to have your mind changed on polling day because you see a Bible or whatnot you probably shouldn't be allowed vote in the first place.

Anyway I don't think it's going to matter if like me you have to walk past a church or two to get to your polling station

The study referred to indicates that just having the vote in a school could change some people's minds on a particular vote. For those people I think it is important that they are not put under any undue influence or pressure, especially with the contentious content of the upcoming referendum here.

Stonedpilot

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

You mean the Lisbon treaty which we voted 'No' to initially due to specific concerns on a few sections, which was then amended in consideration of those concerns and a vote put to us for the updated one that had fixed the issues? What was wrong with that exactly?

Everything. If you keep making people vote on an issue until you get the desired outcome it literally makes voting meaningless. You respect the decision of the people or you make a mockery of it "go again lads there we didnt get the outcome we wanted".
Be Like a North Korea election.


A Kim Jong-Un. B Kim Jong-Un.

splinter65

I’d like a show of hands here of boardsies who could be persuaded to vote against repealing the 8th amendment because:
1. They had to vote in a school (pictures on walls drawn by small children , oohhh upsetting)
2. They glimpsed a crucifix or a statue of Our Lady as they lifted their pencil (ohhh God might smite me).

Irish Guitarist

Just balance things out by having some evil books there as well as the Bible.

padd b1975

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

And how many places in Ireland actually have such a hall, thats not attached to a church or a school?

Just move polling to a community building that was built by atheists.

Problem solved.



Oh wait.....

Bubbaclaus

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Everything. If you keep making people vote on an issue until you get the desired outcome it literally makes voting meaningless. You respect the decision of the people or you make a mockery of it "go again lads there we didnt get the outcome we wanted".

Can you actually give an example where that has actually happened? Because the Lisbon Treaty is not. The 2nd vote was voting for something different to the 1st vote.

In fact, the Lisbon Treaty is an excellent example where government listen to the electorate. The people voted against it because of specific components of the treaty, the powers that be listened, gave the people what they wanted by changing the treaty and allowed them to vote again on the new treaty.

It is literally an example of the exact opposite of what you are claiming.

Oldtree

splinter65 wrote: »

I’d like a show of hands here of boardsies who could be persuaded to vote against repealing the 8th amendment because:
1. They had to vote in a school (pictures on walls drawn by small children , oohhh upsetting)
2. They glimpsed a crucifix or a statue of Our Lady as they lifted their pencil (ohhh God might smite me).

That's a good idea. I didn't know how to set up a poll using the phone, but I'm more inclined towards a blank voting space than a choice of pictures. The deference on some parts of our society is still there, so a glimpse might be all it takes and that is unfair imo.

Maby a mod could set up a poll please.
Maby the choices could be

Yes a blank voting station outside schools
Yes a blank voting station inside schools
No change but it bothers me
No change as it dosn't bother me

Oldtree

padd b1975 wrote: »

Just move polling to a community building that was built by atheists.

Problem solved.



Oh wait.....

Maby a community building built by the community might be a better option.

splinter65

Oldtree wrote: »

That's a good idea. I didn't know how to set up a poll using the phone, but I'm more inclined towards a blank voting space than a choice of pictures. The deference on some parts of our society is still there, so a glimpse might be all it takes and that is unfair imo.

Maby a mod could set up a poll please.
Maby the choices could be

Yes a blank voting station outside schools
Yes a blank voting station inside schools
No change but it bothers me
No change as it dosn't bother me

Unfair on whom though oldtree.

Fr Tod Umptious

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Everything. If you keep making people vote on an issue until you get the desired outcome it literally makes voting meaningless. You respect the decision of the people or you make a mockery of it "go again lads there we didnt get the outcome we wanted".
Be Like a North Korea election.


A Kim Jong-Un. B Kim Jong-Un.

I don't think you understand.

The Lisbon Treaty was rejected, then amended (one of the only good things the Cowan government did well in) and it was submitted for ratification again with the amendments.

The treay was different the second time round.

An awful lot of people don't seem to be able to grasp that.

Akrasia

eviltwin wrote: »

If you are the type of person to have your mind changed on polling day because you see a Bible or whatnot you probably shouldn't be allowed vote in the first place.

Anyway I don't think it's going to matter if like me you have to walk past a church or two to get to your polling station

It's not that people are stupid, it's that human cognition is imperfect and subject to subconscious biases.

People think differently when in different environments. If you were any way on the fence about abortion, you could be nudged into voting against it by having to do so inside a church or in a building with a lot of religious iconography. If the referendum is close, 1 or 2% of voters who were influenced to vote no instead of yes because they subconsciously felt the eyes of the church watching them vote could be enough to affect the outcome.

Would christians support having polling centers inside a rape crisis center?

Mitch Connor

I have no interest in religion and actively dislike the doctrine around it, but I don't care at all what items there are in a polling station.

I'd vote in a church if needs be. It has no effect on my vote or likelihood to vote. Don't care.

Allinall

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Everything. If you keep making people vote on an issue until you get the desired outcome it literally makes voting meaningless. You respect the decision of the people or you make a mockery of it "go again lads there we didnt get the outcome we wanted".
Be Like a North Korea election.



A Kim Jong-Un. B Kim Jong-Un.

The government never made anyone vote a second time.

All 1.8 million did so 100% voluntarily.

Agricola

It's not the bible I'm worried about. It's Mrs O' Flaherty, church caretaker and head polling clerk in my local parish since 1977. She gave me some filthy looks when I came in to vote on the same sex marriage. She'll really be gunning for the abortion vote.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

If somebody goes to vote and is deflected from their intended opinion by the simple presence of a bible or a cross somewhere in the room, then they are easily influenced and obviously hadn't a notion what way they actually felt on the issue.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Agricola wrote: »

It's not the bible I'm worried about. It's Mrs O' Flaherty, church caretaker and head polling clerk in my local parish since 1977. She gave me some filthy looks when I came in to vote on the same sex marriage. She'll really be gunning for the abortion vote.

And she'll know how anybody actually votes????

splinter65

Akrasia wrote: »

It's not that people are stupid, it's that human cognition is imperfect and subject to subconscious biases.

People think differently when in different environments. If you were any way on the fence about abortion, you could be nudged into voting against it by having to do so inside a church or in a building with a lot of religious iconography. If the referendum is close, 1 or 2% of voters who were influenced to vote no instead of yes because they subconsciously felt the eyes of the church watching them vote could be enough to affect the outcome.

Would christians support having poling centers inside a rape crisis center?

But are voters not being subconsciously influenced to vote one way or the other for weeks before hand by the campaigners for each side?
Are you seriously suggesting that churches and mosques and synagogues be asked to cover up the fronts of their buildings on polling day in case their adherents are swayed?
Or is it just Christians your bothered about?

Agricola

Scarlette Modern Muffin wrote: »

they are easily influenced and obviously hadn't a notion what way they actually felt on the issue.

I'd imagine that represents a large proportion of the voting public on any given polling day.

Oldtree

splinter65 wrote: »

Unfair on whom though oldtree.

It would be unfair on a person who would be unduly influenced. The study suggested that there are some people who are influenced at the last minute at the voting station.

Agricola

Scarlette Modern Muffin wrote: »

And she'll know how anybody actually votes????

Aul wan's have a sixth sense about quare hawks. They just know who's doing the devil's bidding at the polling booth.

Oldtree

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I have no interest in religion and actively dislike the doctrine around it, but I don't care at all what items there are in a polling station.

I'd vote in a church if needs be. It has no effect on my vote or likelihood to vote. Don't care.

I think it is more about protecting those umong our community who perhaps are not as strong-minded as us.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Agricola wrote: »

I'd imagine that represents a large proportion of the voting public on any given polling day.

Not at all. While opinion polls are no exact science, the 'don't knows' are usually a small minority. No way can you say 'a large proportion' of voters don't know how they will vote before they go into the polling station. Most Don't Knows don't vote at all.

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

And how many places in Ireland actually have such a hall, thats not attached to a church or a school?

Community centers. Town halls. Most areas have one lying idle during the day.

eviltwin

Akrasia wrote: »

It's not that people are stupid, it's that human cognition is imperfect and subject to subconscious biases.

People think differently when in different environments. If you were any way on the fence about abortion, you could be nudged into voting against it by having to do so inside a church or in a building with a lot of religious iconography. If the referendum is close, 1 or 2% of voters who were influenced to vote no instead of yes because they subconsciously felt the eyes of the church watching them vote could be enough to affect the outcome.

Would christians support having poling centers inside a rape crisis center?

If we were being asked to vote in a room full of newborns I would agree but we are going to be voting in a school hall or community centre

My polling station is the local Catholic school, I have to pass a big statue of Mary and a cross or two to get to the hall. It's unfair to ask schools to hide this stuff because AI are offended.

I have made up my mind on how I will be voting. I reckon most will have made up theirs by polling day and I doubt they will be swayed.

Oldtree

Scarlette Modern Muffin wrote: »

If somebody goes to vote and is deflected from their intended opinion by the simple presence of a bible or a cross somewhere in the room, then they are easily influenced and obviously hadn't a notion what way they actually felt on the issue.

That may be one way of looking at it. But if they are voting in a blank voting station then they get to vote as they have decided beforehand, which is their rite, notion or no notion.

splinter65

Agricola wrote: »

It's not the bible I'm worried about. It's Mrs O' Flaherty, church caretaker and head polling clerk in my local parish since 1977. She gave me some filthy looks when I came in to vote on the same sex marriage. She'll really be gunning for the abortion vote.

If your afraid of Mrs O’Flaherty despite being old enough to vote, then that means that you actually believe that Mrs O’Flaherty has X-ray vision and in my opinion your vote doesn’t count, because you don’t actually have the capacity to vote in the first place.
The amount of voters in the country who believe Mrs O’Flaherty has X-ray vision and will come to their bedroom that night and kill them is so minuscule as to be negligible, so doesn’t matter.

Oldtree

Scarlette Modern Muffin wrote: »

And she'll know how anybody actually votes????

She is uncanny that way, we all have one!

Mrs OBumble

Agricola wrote: »

It's not the bible I'm worried about. It's Mrs O' Flaherty, church caretaker and head polling clerk in my local parish since 1977. She gave me some filthy looks when I came in to vote on the same sex marriage. She'll really be gunning for the abortion vote.

But a look from her in the (non-existant in most towns) commuity centre would have less effect?

splinter65

Oldtree wrote: »

I think it is more about protecting those umong our community who perhaps are not as strong-minded as us.

Protecting them from what? Making up their own minds?

Oldtree

splinter65 wrote: »

But are voters not being subconsciously influenced to vote one way or the other for weeks before hand by the campaigners for each side?
Are you seriously suggesting that churches and mosques and synagogues be asked to cover up the fronts of their buildings on polling day in case their adherents are swayed?
Or is it just Christians your bothered about?

It would be about anybody of any religion/or not that would be influenced in any way inside a polling station

One eyed Jack

Akrasia wrote: »

It's not that people are stupid, it's that human cognition is imperfect and subject to subconscious biases.

People think differently when in different environments. If you were any way on the fence about abortion, you could be nudged into voting against it by having to do so inside a church or in a building with a lot of religious iconography. If the referendum is close, 1 or 2% of voters who were influenced to vote no instead of yes because they subconsciously felt the eyes of the church watching them vote could be enough to affect the outcome.

Sounds to me like a long winded way of suggesting people are stupid and can't be trusted with no minds of their own.

Would christians support having poling centers inside a rape crisis center?

I'm trying to understand the relationship between Christianity and rape and on what basis you imagine I should find such a location objectionable or not?

Rape Crisis Centres aren't usually large enough in size to accommodate a polling booth btw, never mind a whole polling station :pac:

AndrewJRenko

Oldtree wrote: »

Maby a community building built by the community might be a better option.

Something like the GAA Club hall that exists in every townland in the country?

Oldtree

eviltwin wrote: »

If we were being asked to vote in a room full of newborns I would agree but we are going to be voting in a school hall or community centre

My polling station is the local Catholic school, I have to pass a big statue of Mary and a cross or two to get to the hall. It's unfair to ask schools to hide this stuff because AI are offended.

I have made up my mind on how I will be voting. I reckon most will have made up theirs by polling day and I doubt they will be swayed.

I think we can agree that what is outside the polling station isn't the issue here.

eviltwin

Oldtree wrote: »

I think we can agree that what is outside the polling station isn't the issue here.

So what is the issue? A Bible on a desk?

Oldtree

splinter65 wrote: »

If your afraid of Mrs O’Flaherty despite being old enough to vote, then that means that you actually believe that Mrs O’Flaherty has X-ray vision and in my opinion your vote doesn’t count, because you don’t actually have the capacity to vote in the first place.
The amount of voters in the country who believe Mrs O’Flaherty has X-ray vision and will come to their bedroom that night and kill them is so minuscule as to be negligible, so doesn’t matter.

Lads used to stand outside the polling stations here and would get a surprisingly accurate count just by looking at the voters. Perhaps just by standing outside the polling station they influenced the voters.

GarIT

Deleted User wrote: »

Community centers. Town halls. Most areas have one lying idle during the day.

Don't forget GAA clubs, I don't know anywhere without a GAA club.

Irish Guitarist

They're in for a shock when they discover that not everyone that votes against abortion will be doing so for religious reasons.

GarIT

eviltwin wrote: »

I have made up my mind on how I will be voting.

On what? Nobody's even been told what we are voting on yet.

eviltwin

GarIT wrote: »

On what? Nobody's even been told what we are voting on yet.

We have a fairly good idea

Oldtree

splinter65 wrote: »

Protecting them from what? Making up their own minds?

They have made up their minds. Whatever influenced their decision outdide the polling station I'm sure you would agree that there should be no influencing of any kind inside the polling station. The day of the vote is for reflection.