Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

FrostyJack

Peregrinus wrote: »

This isn't a mistake or a slip by Giuliani. He said it in an interview on Fox, and the repeated it in an interview with the Wall Street Journal. In the latter interview, apparently, he is asked if this new information conflicts with the President's previous statements (that he didn't know about the payment Cohen made, and didn't reimburse him for it); in Giuliani's view, apparently, that's "not an issue".

I am sure they will spin it like it to try suit themselves and his supporters won't bat an eyelid as usual, but it is fairly damning, that he has been caught on a lie and did pay a pornstar to be quiet after an affair just after his wife gave birth.

Peregrinus

The line will be that there was no affair, but Trump's reputation would be damaged even by claims of an affair; therefore her silence was bought.

spacecoyote

FrostyJack wrote: »

I am sure they will spin it like it to try suit themselves and his supporters won't bat an eyelid as usual, but it is fairly damning, that he has been caught on a lie and did pay a pornstar to be quiet after an affair just after his wife gave birth.

That's the thing. It's probably a pretty smart play really.

If he denied it & it's true, he's caught in a lie, potentially under oath

If it's pinned to the campaign it violates the campaign contribution laws

If he paid it personally, yes it's admitting an indiscretion, but he dodges all the legality questions. I'm sure they've weighed it up & know that he has basically gotten a free pass on all this kind of thing before from his base so it might mean a short term hit in polls from undecided types but will likely be forgotten by a fickle public by the time he needs them on his side

everlast75

spacecoyote wrote: »

That's the thing. It's probably a pretty smart play really.

If he denied it & it's true, he's caught in a lie, potentially under oath

If it's pinned to the campaign it violates the campaign contribution laws

If he paid it personally, yes it's admitting an indiscretion, but he dodges all the legality questions. I'm sure they've weighed it up & know that he has basically gotten a free pass on all this kind of thing before from his base so it might mean a short term hit in polls from undecided types but will likely be forgotten by a fickle public by the time he needs them on his side

I'm only waking up but if he is involved in the affair payment then
1) he is a party to the Daniels contract and can be deposed.
2) He lied to the american people on (h)airforce one
3) he has violated campaign contribution laws
4) apparently the manner in which it was paid back has tax implications

In addition Gulliani said the reason why Comey was fired was because he would not tell trump that he wasn't a target. Some legal opinion is that is for a corrupt purpose.


IMHO Giuliani is not that smart. Other lawyers for trump left because they wanted to protect him and knew when he wasn't listening to him and that Trump's approach was wrong. Gulliani is such a yes man and combine that with lack of smarts, he will do what he is told... and he said trump as approved of everything he said on tv yesterday!

Christy42

everlast75 wrote: »

spacecoyote wrote: »

That's the thing. It's probably a pretty smart play really.

If he denied it & it's true, he's caught in a lie, potentially under oath

If it's pinned to the campaign it violates the campaign contribution laws

If he paid it personally, yes it's admitting an indiscretion, but he dodges all the legality questions. I'm sure they've weighed it up & know that he has basically gotten a free pass on all this kind of thing before from his base so it might mean a short term hit in polls from undecided types but will likely be forgotten by a fickle public by the time he needs them on his side

I'm only waking up but if he is involved in the affair payment then
1) he is a party to the Daniels contract and can be deposed.
2) He lied to the american people on (h)airforce one
3) he has violated campaign contribution laws
4) apparently the manner in which it was paid back has tax implications

In addition Gulliani said the reason why Comey was fired was because he would not tell trump that he wasn't a target. Some legal opinion is that is for a corrupt purpose.


IMHO Giuliani is not that smart. Other lawyers for trump left because they wanted to protect him and knew when he wasn't listening to him and that Trump's approach was wrong. Gulliani is such a yes man and combine that with lack of smarts, he will do what he is told... and he said trump as approved of everything he said on tv yesterday!

Gulliani is very much lacking in smarts. He went on TV before and said that the travel ban was a Muslim ban (designed by him to try and get it through the courts). That is why he lost favour before when he used to be much more involved. Guess they ran out of lawyers.

He was also the guy to say that there were no successful Islamic terrorist attacks on US soil before Obama.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/aug/16/rudy-giuliani/aside-from-911-rudy-giuliani-wrong-about-no-terr/

ancapailldorcha

Conspiracy Theory posts deleted.

Peregrinus

Christy42 wrote: »

Gulliani is very much lacking in smarts. He went on TV before and said that the travel ban was a Muslim ban (designed by him to try and get it through the courts). That is why he lost favour before when he used to be much more involved. Guess they ran out of lawyers.

He was also the guy to say that there were no successful Islamic terrorist attacks on US soil before Obama.

He may have slipped before, but I don't think this is a slip. He is reported as saying that he discussed with the President the need to get this information (that Trump reimbursed Cohen) out to the public, and it was agreed that he, Giuliani, would do this when the opportunity presented. So it's not something he just blurted out.

VinLieger

Giuliani also confirmed that he fired comey as comey wouldnt assure trump to him he wasn't a target of the russia investigation, how is that not an admission of obstruction of justice by your own lawyer?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/giuliani-trump-russia-probe-comey-latest-robert-mueller-target-a8333826.html

Mumha

Itssoeasy wrote: »

No reporting of where the questions cane from, said that mueller or his team wrote the questions. They verbally told the trump team at the meeting in march and it's reported that trumps team wrote these questions down at or shortly after this meeting.

The only thing the Washington post has done is tell us which member of the presidents team wrote them down. The meeting was contentious because John Dowd got heated and claimed this whole thing was interfering with the presidents work.

No, Wapo said that Mueller/team gave them the topics that they wished to cover, and that the questions were subsequently created by Sekulow, as to the type of questions that they'd have to prepare for. In fact one of the questions related to the Trump campaign reaching out to the Russians, something Mueller has never suggested.

EDIT : Just as a follow up to that,

"Mueller’s warning — the first time he is known to have mentioned a possible subpoena to Trump’s legal team — spurred a sharp retort from John Dowd, then the president’s lead lawyer. “This isn’t some game,” Dowd said, according to two people with knowledge of his comments. “You are screwing with the work of the president of the United States.”

The flare-up set in motion weeks of turmoil among Trump’s attorneys as they debated how to deal with the special counsel’s request for an interview, a dispute that ultimately led to Dowd’s resignation.

In the wake of the testy March 5 meeting, Mueller’s team agreed to provide the president’s lawyers with more specific information about the subjects that prosecutors wished to discuss with the president. With those details in hand, Trump lawyer Jay Sekulow compiled a list of 49 questions that the team believed the president would be asked, according to three of the four people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk publicly. The New York Times first reported the existence of the list."

For his part, Trump fumed when he saw the breadth of the questions that emerged out of the talks with Mueller’s team, according to two White House officials.
The president and several advisers now plan to point to the list as evidence that Mueller has strayed beyond his mandate and is overreaching, they said."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/mueller-raised-possibility-of-presidential-subpoena-in-meeting-with-trumps-legal-team/2018/05/01/2bdec08e-4d51-11e8-af46-b1d6dc0d9bfe_story.html?utm_term=.b253d6ec9adf

Zubeneschamali

Peregrinus wrote: »

He is reported as saying that he discussed with the President the need to get this information (that Trump reimbursed Cohen) out to the public, and it was agreed that he, Giuliani, would do this when the opportunity presented. So it's not something he just blurted out.

No, but Trump is an outright idiot, and Giuliani is not much brighter, so the fact that this is a play they dreamed up does not mean it is a smart one.

I assume the idea is to cop to everything on the Stormy Daniels side because it is sleaze but not illegal, and deny any connection to the campaign, which is what Mueller would be looking for. But there is paperwork, and Mueller has it. Claiming Trump personally reimbursed Cohen won't fly if the paperwork says otherwise.

The other thing is that even a personal payment direct from Trump to Stormy may count as campaign money under FEC rules given that it was a) during the campaign and b) intended to prevent a ****storm hitting Trumps chances.

Edit: that pre-nup must be really something if Trump can admit having a porn star spank him with a copy of Forbes magazine with his picture on the cover while Melania is home with months-old Barron, and she still gets nothing in a divorce.

Peregrinus

No, I'm sure the paperwork shows that Trump did reimburse Cohen, which up to now he has denied. He's decided that it's less damaging to change his story now rather than wait to have it changed for him.

Yes, it doesn't solve his legal problems regarding whether and how the payment should have been reported, but maintaining the fiction that he hadn't reimbursed Cohen wouldn't do that either.

Leroy42

spacecoyote wrote: »

That's the thing. It's probably a pretty smart play really.

If he denied it & it's true, he's caught in a lie, potentially under oath

If it's pinned to the campaign it violates the campaign contribution laws

If he paid it personally, yes it's admitting an indiscretion, but he dodges all the legality questions. I'm sure they've weighed it up & know that he has basically gotten a free pass on all this kind of thing before from his base so it might mean a short term hit in polls from undecided types but will likely be forgotten by a fickle public by the time he needs them on his side

The issue is why did they bother with the lie in the first place? They could have easily taken this road from the very start and would have suffered very little from it. If Trump is so smart, if he is indeed surrounded by the best people, then how did he allow a porn star and her media hungry lawyer to outplay them so such a large extent?

Instead you had Cohen's lawyer repeatedly say on TV that Cohen paid it out of his own funds because "He loves Trump so much". You had Trump claim that he knew nothing about the deal or the payment.

So some will see this as a smart move, get ahead of the news, but it yet again, to anybody with a semblance of critical thinking, shows that Trump and those around him will lie at every opportunity. Nothing they say should ever be taken as the truth unless it is proven to be so.

There is no doubt that this was a prepared move, Giuliani didn't 'let this slip'. As mentioned in an earlier post, there are more than likely records of the payment to Cohen in the info the FBI got so this was going to come out, or failing that Cohen was more than likely going to tell the FBI the truth. It would be pretty easy to show if he got the money repaid by checking his bank accounts, which I am sure they have done.

everlast75

Trump on the phone to Fox and Friends every morning.

Gulliani on Hannity every evening.


Mueller's case would be done in 2 weeks flat!

everlast75

Leroy42 wrote: »

The issue is why did they bother with the lie in the first place? They could have easily taken this road from the very start and would have suffered very little from it

That would appear to be an inherent problem with him.

He is incapable of bringing any shame upon himself (remember the symptoms of being a narcissist) and will lie to avoid it. Once that lie is out, to admit that lie he will just make up a bigger lie.

If he had of admitted he spent the night in Moscow, that in and of itself was not an unreasonable thing to do. It's a long flight. But when someone suggested girls in the room, rather than accept he stayed there but deny the presence of any girls, he tells another lie.

That is why his revolving door legal team do not want him to sit down and talk to Mueller's team. The only problems are
1) he doesn't listen to others when his gut says another thing and
2) the longer he avoids the interview, the longer the investigation will go on (unless he starts firing people) and if it continues until after the midterm, he stands a good change of getting impeached.

He really is truly ****** and it is only a matter of time.

My best guess is he will be faced with a subpoena/impeachment and will resign. He will come out with an elaborate statement about how he tried to drain the swamp, that if it had of been up to him he would have sorted it all out, that despite the resistance from both the Dems and Reps, he got more done in his short stint that Obama did in 8, or that crooked Hillary ever could have done, that he has devoted his life, at great personal expense to making America great again, and now he intends spending more time with his loving family, and wishes Mike Pence all the best.



(Of course, after this he will be hit with multiple sealed indictments)

Zubeneschamali

Leroy42 wrote: »

The issue is why did they bother with the lie in the first place? They could have easily taken this road from the very start and would have suffered very little from it.

Early reports suggested that a personal payment from Trump to Daniels at this time would break FEC rules, before all the flim flam about Cohen and the campaign and the money trail started. This is why Cohen (falsely) claimed that he had paid the money personally himself without Trumps involvement.

Leroy42

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Early reports suggested that a personal payment from Trump to Daniels at this time would break FEC rules, before all the flim flam about Cohen and the campaign and the money trail started. This is why Cohen (falsely) claimed that he had paid the money personally himself without Trumps involvement.

Yes but they must have seen that by going with the line that Cohen paid it would raise issues with campaign funds, not to mention the sheer incredulousness of a lawyer paying the money for a client.

On top of that, taken the Cohen paid line would necessarily lead to questions about whether Trump knew of the deal and as such how could Daniels be tied to a deal the other side knew nothing about.

From the very start it made no sense to take the line they did. Nobody is surprised about the story of the affair, and I'm sure many would have bought the line about having to pay off to keep a known lie out of the papers.

What this does it to openly show that Trump is a liar. Sure the voters don't seem to care, but a grand jury will be asked whether they believe Comey and others with little of no history of lying against a man that has been shown multiple times to lie.

Everytime this POTUS seems to make any decision, it seems not too long before he is having to make amendments or change course completely.

Zubeneschamali

Leroy42 wrote: »

I'm sure many would have bought the line about having to pay off to keep a known lie out of the papers.

It doesn't matter who buys it if the payment itself breaks FEC rules. Trump is personally guilty of breaking the law during his campaign, and now Giuliani is bragging about it on Fox.

From the Wapo before the money trail was traced:

Unless the contributor was the candidate himself. Trump gave millions to his own campaign and could legally have given $130,000, which was then paid out to Daniels through the LLC.

But, again, it would have to be reported, which it wasn’t.

“In any of these cases,” Noble said, “the civil penalty would be, the campaign would have to report it and there would be a civil penalty for failure to report and/or an excessive contribution.” That includes Trump funding the payment himself.

B0jangles

I think it all boils down to the fact that Trump's default reaction to any situation is to lie. They are not carefully planned or constructed lies, they are lies straight off the top of his head.

He usually leaves it to other people to try to make some kind of believable narrative out of his lies - sometimes he will pop back into contradict them for no logical reason except that the cover story they made for him made him look less than perfect.

As a consequence he and his team are constantly coming up with new stories that have to simultaneously work with the previous lies and the new ones.

They are not very good at this; it seems they are believers in quantity over quality when it comes to lying.

Leroy42

B0jangles wrote: »

I think it all boils down to the fact that Trump's default reaction to any situation is to lie. They are not carefully planned or constructed lies, they are lies straight off the top of his head.

He usually leaves it to other people to try to make some kind of believable narrative out of his lies - sometimes he will pop back into contradict them for no logical reason except that the cover story they made for him made him look less than perfect.

As a consequence he and his team are constantly coming up with new stories that have to simultaneously work with the previous lies and the new ones.

They are not very good at this; it seems they are believers in quantity over quality when it comes to lying.

And yet,

Republicans, ...., overwhelmingly view Trump as a consistent truth-teller. Seventy-six percent said that he tells the truth either all or most of the time, while 22 percent believe that he tells the truth only some of the time or less.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/385779-nearly-two-thirds-of-americans-say-trump-is-dishonest-poll

I mean, how?

B0jangles

Leroy42 wrote: »

And yet, http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/385779-nearly-two-thirds-of-americans-say-trump-is-dishonest-poll

I mean, how?

Because he's Their Guy.

I really do think it's as simple as that - things are only bad and criminal and Not Funny if it's Them doing it, not Us.

pixelburp

Simple: it's easier to double-down on the belief of Trump the outsider, kicking against the evils of liberal Washington, than openly admit that maybe, mayyyybe you got suckered into voting for a pretty debaucherous man who is far, far beyond the evangelical / conservative lifestyle.

VinLieger

Leroy42 wrote: »

And yet, http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/385779-nearly-two-thirds-of-americans-say-trump-is-dishonest-poll

I mean, how?

Extreme cognitive dissonance cus they think "we are winning"

aloyisious

Peregrinus wrote: »

He may have slipped before, but I don't think this is a slip. He is reported as saying that he discussed with the President the need to get this information (that Trump reimbursed Cohen) out to the public, and it was agreed that he, Giuliani, would do this when the opportunity presented. So it's not something he just blurted out.

It's left me wondering if this admission of a pay-out, after so much denial of it, is the reason that Cob left the team, that he had been operating on the basis that Don was being honest with him and this upcoming revelation to the team was the straw that broke the camel's back.

PopePalpatine

pixelburp wrote: »

Simple: it's easier to double-down on the belief of Trump the outsider, kicking against the evils of liberal Washington, than openly admit that maybe, mayyyybe you got suckered into voting for a pretty debaucherous man who is far, far beyond the evangelical / conservative lifestyle.

Love the sinner, hate the sin...unless he can repeal anti-discrimination laws, then you can just forget the sin!

VinLieger

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Love the sinner, hate the sin...unless he can repeal anti-discrimination laws, then you can just forget the sin!

Dont forget he also has to repeal rape laws, pedophile laws and general sexual assault laws as republicans seem to be grand with other republicans who commit those crimes too as long as they have that big R next to their name

amandstu

"I did not have financial transactions with that woman"

D.Trump

:pac:

(yes,I dictated that)

Call me Al

VinLieger wrote: »

Extreme cognitive dissonance cus they think "we are winning"

Pretty much.

There were group chats with trumpers in South Carolina (I think) on CNN a couple of weeks back. The consensus was it was Trump against the swamp. He was trying to drain it but they were all (and I mean even some Republicans) against him. It didn't matter that Mueller, Comey (something some seemed surprised at) and many of the others were Republicans. They were all bad, corrupt and out to get him because they were an intrinsic part of the system and thus the swamp.
And don't even talk about Stormy as that was all a private matter between Trump, his family and God. They see no contradictions in how they vote and what their personal belief system is. None.

And everything else was Hilary.. The lady who isn't President and has been investigated numerous times for alleged crimes and hasn't been found guilty of anything.
These voters are so far down this rabbit hole with the conspiracy theories that Mueller's investigation won't make a difference. Because everyone is out to get their guy.

It was actually a very enlightening segment, but frightening to see how entrenched and rigid they were in the face of mountains of allegations. And I would believe that that many of them will continue to follow the cult of Trump even if he's found guilty of crimes against their country.

Mumha

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, I'm sure the paperwork shows that Trump did reimburse Cohen, which up to now he has denied. He's decided that it's less damaging to change his story now rather than wait to have it changed for him.

Yes, it doesn't solve his legal problems regarding whether and how the payment should have been reported, but maintaining the fiction that he hadn't reimbursed Cohen wouldn't do that either.

I think there's a lot of merit in what you've put forward, especially as he was vague as to Trump's involvement (something along the lines that he knew in a sort of overall sense, but nothing about specifics, he left all that to Cohen). He effectively dropped Cohen further in it.

amandstu

Call me Al wrote: »

Pretty much.

There were group chats with trumpers in South Carolina (I think) on CNN a couple of weeks back. The consensus was it was Trump against the swamp. He was trying to drain it but they were all (and I mean even some Republicans) against him. It didn't matter that Mueller, Comey (something some seemed surprised at) and many of the others were Republicans. They were all bad, corrupt and out to get him because they were an intrinsic part of the system and thus the swamp.
And don't even talk about Stormy as that was all a private matter between Trump, his family and God. They see no contradictions in how they vote and what their personal belief system is. None.

And everything else was Hilary.. The lady who isn't President and has been investigated numerous times for alleged crimes and hasn't been found guilty of anything.
These voters are so far down this rabbit hole with the conspiracy theories that Mueller's investigation won't make a difference. Because everyone is out to get their guy.

It was actually a very enlightening segment, but frightening to see how entrenched and rigid they were in the face of mountains of allegations. And I would believe that that many of them will continue to follow the cult of Trump even if he's found guilty of crimes against their country.

Is the cult of the "decent voter" to blame? Politicians "buy"
voters' allegiance with flattery but really a large section may actually see themselves in a despicable candidate although they will not admit it (the tribute vice pays to virtue)

Both/all sides of course ,except Trump's base highlights this more so.

That may not be the only way people's voting intentions are informed but ,until the economy/jobs outlook becomes clearer then it may be fairly high in the meantime(the country does seem split ,almost in a civil war way to my fearful eyes)

Mumha

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Love the sinner, hate the sin...unless he can repeal anti-discrimination laws, then you can just forget the sin!

Give that man a Mulligan !!!