Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250663#Comment_118250663

To do it properly, its a perfect aircraft. A close second place would be a Eurofighter. Reasons being in use by nearest neighbour, so plenty of training opportunities overseas without us going overseas, also 2 engine preferred when you have to operate over water.

Problem (if you can call it that) is both types also have a huge ground attack capability that we don't even have someplace to train with.

Thing is though, by the time we would be up to operational level with gen 4.5, the rest of the world will be at Gen 5. The later we get in, the steeper the climb will be. We have already missed 4 whole generations. Our last dedicated air superiority aircraft was the Hurricane Mk IIc. (retired 1947). Everything since was a trainer. We have never been in the fast jet game.

Given the state of the DF currently, and what is required to even maintain the status quo, never mind investing on what is required urgently to cover capability gaps, I fear this is a long way down the list. The AC aren't even pushing it, instead throwing their weight behind getting back in the SAR game, with a polite nod towards military transport aircraft, but nothing that might take them too far from home. When a single engine single pilot transport is carrying a crew of 4 pilots on a buckshee cargo trip to germany, so everyone can get their flying hours in, you know how bad things are.

sparky42

To be fair, I think the twin engine issue isn't as relevant as it has been, otherwise we wouldn't see the F35 in service to the scale that is happening.

Sgt. Bilko 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251910#Comment_118251910

There is a major push on that SAR gig by a number of indos but I doubt it will happen. Certain Ministers have already taken a good photo opportunity in the S-92. Completely agree though, the level of staffing across the board is horrendously short. Its extremely naïve of the government to over look this.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118252320#Comment_118252320

History repeats itself it seems in how the Government of the day treats the DF...

Larbre34

They are very, very expensive nonetheless.

I know by firepower you mean capability as opposed to actual weapons load, but even at that, the Rafale is excessively complex for what we need, I think.

In the case of Greece and Croatia, they live cheek by jowl with historic aggressors and there are still active border disputes. Both are also NATO members, so there is an onus on interoperability and capability enhancement.

Its hard to look past the F-16 and a Gripen lease option, but the more I look at the FA-50, the more I like it. A Mach 1.5 light attack/interceptor that carries all the modern ordnance.

KAI are courting the Slovak AF as a first EU customer, seeking to ink a deal for 10 units, with a view to shipping 1,000 units to Western countries in the next 20 years. We could do worse than to at least meet them following the CoDF.

Sgt. Bilko 09

Draken Defense Co just signed up to procure 12 Former Dutch AF F16s with a further 28 thereafter. They have also pre signed an agreement to buy 24 Isreali F16 A/Bs by 2024. How a private company manages this type buying compared to a country is madness.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118253483#Comment_118253483

The FA50 a trainer. It would be useless for any actual interception duties. This has been well documented by those far better qualified to explain why than I.

Why do you persist because you like the look of it?

TRAINER!

NOT AN INTERCEPTOR!

It couldn't get there, it couldn't keep up with the main reason for proper fighter jets: (a)Intercepting either Foreign (Russian) Military aircraft flying without transponders to escort them through Irish Controlled airspace or (b) Intercepting civil aircraft that are not responding to ATC, who may be suffering from comms problems. In the rest of Europe this is a far more common use. But you need the sprint speed to reach them, and the range to stay with them at cruising speed.

The FA50 has neither, and was never intended to have.

It's like you had €10,000 to buy a nice 2nd hand car, because you needed to commute regularly from Dublin to Galway.

But look, you can get a top of the Range carbonfibre racing bicycle instead, with disk brakes, only weighs about a KG, all the guys in the TDF have them for €10,000, which will look great cycling from where you live to the locker in the train station.

Granted you won't have it on the other end and will have to fork out for buses or taxis at the other end.

But it looks great as you zip around Dublin.

If the TDF was back here, you could cycle next to them too.

"but they are cycling from Dublin to Galway today as a special stage, nothing stopping me from doing the same!" you say.

But they have a large fleet of support vehicles bringing them food, water and changes of clothing along the way, and have rolling road closures to make the journey faster.

You just have your bicycle. If you try to venture from Dublin to Galway you'll have to contend with all the heavy traffic, plus you aren't quite at TDF fitness levels yet. And the TDF riders don't commute by bicycle. They have cars to get them where they need to be.

You realise bicycle is not being used for what you wanted to use it for because to be honest getting on the train to Galway with all your cycling kit in winter was a pain. Easier to just Taxi at either end.

You try to sell the bike but nobody wants to pay anything close to what you paid, after all, its just a bicycle (unless you are well in with other expensive racing bicycle users) and you can get something to do the exact same thing for €200. It won't be as flashy, but it'll get you to the train station just as quickly.

And then one day you do the maths and realise what you spent on Bus, train and taxi would have paid for fuel & running costs for that 2nd hand €10k car you chose a bicycle instead of, three times.

And you wouldn't still have L plates.

Gary kk

Would they not have fore warning and meet them as they enter irish air space? Don't think it's ever really a straight chase really one would surly use assets in the expected flight path with some to the left and right of said path. They make a intercept model too I think?

We ever actually need something for a true deterrent and just policing well we a re probably fecked anyway. That's nothing against anyone that's just on a numbers game.

Sgt. Bilko 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118257355#Comment_118257355

Ireland does not have the capability to receive such warnings with no ground radar, an investment is needed in that area also...

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118255636#Comment_118255636

That asinine analogy makes no sense.

The issue is there are modern fighters like the Gripen, which will be much cheaper to run than old F16's or Rafale's and do the same job for us. Its unclear how the running costs of the Gripen compare to a new largely unknown Light Fighter/Trainer type which has 60~70 of the capability.

That's assuming the ROI makes any sense. Which is debatable.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118253838#Comment_118253838

No reason a private company can't have a budget bigger than a country. Especially if its US military contracts.

Lorddrakul

The Fa/T-50 would just about do in terms of top speed (mach 1.5) and service ceiling (55,000 ft), but what kind of ground support would be necessary to guide them in to intercept?

As interception and deterrence is the sole mission, the ability to scramble and put a radar guided missile on track is vital too. The T-50 can handle Mavericks, but they are a very expensive option. If it could go with European alternatives (Matra, etc) it might be better. Doesn't even need to be BVR, as such, just radar guided for that "Go on, on yer bike" messaging.

We are unlikely to see many Tu-160s flouncing through Irish airspace, but even the ability to ensure that one would have to hitch up its skirts to head over 60k feet and above mach 2 would ensure they don't hang around long as our problem. Beyond that, it would be the slow eyeball to eyeball dance with the Bears.

I would tend to agree overall, the Gripen, as a whole weapons system and platform, for its ruggedness, versatility, and overall access to expertise, makes a lot more sense.

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118257604#Comment_118257604

Im pretty sure he meant a heads up from NATO/RAF.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118259897#Comment_118259897

but how we we track them while they are in our airspace?

Larbre34

The need for a military grade Primary Radar as a first step to any upgrade in air defence capability has long been identified. There's no sense doing anything without it.

In fact, even if the arrangement with the RAF were to continue, a DF managed primary radar makes sense to procure.

Simon Coveney has often mentioned it as a priority for him, but it has never made it further than a shortlist of capital equipment planning.

I suspect it'll feature fairly high on the CoDF recommendation, given that its a basic part of State infrastructure, possessed by every other EU nation, except ourselves.

Flinty997

You'd think the radar would be useful with or without the fighters.

Though intended to work as a system.

Gary kk

Whatever happens it won't be for a while the country is incapable of running a efficient public service. I am not talking about wages I talking about overspending on every project. Saying that wages should be first thing they address when it comes to the DF.

I know some want at the very least a 4.5 gen but I can't see the state going for that as long as something like a light fighter is available. It ticks more than enough boxes not to be seriously looked at.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118260570#Comment_118260570

Name me any country that doesn't overspend on public projects? I mean that's just a silly attitude to take. As for the "light fighter option", if that's all that's going to be looked at, I stand by my position of "don't bother, invest those funds in other areas of the DF rather than waste it."

Gary kk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118260621#Comment_118260621

Grand spend it somewhere else will be your answer.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118260440#Comment_118260440

I do.

As it stands, the civil aviation authorities cannot see any aircraft that turns off its transponder, or just experiences a systems failure.

We have responsibility for the air traffic over the ocean, in an area far larger than the size of the island, that tracks through 70% of flights between Europe and North America.

So in terms of improving the capability of the IAA, as well as enabling improved partnerships with the foreign aviation stakeholders, civil and military, a primary radar would never be wasted, even if we didn't have interceptor aircraft to respond to any situation. Information is power.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118260628#Comment_118260628

Rather than the usual Irish military solution of half assing it, yes. But most likely your solution of buying something that looks the part but can't do the actual job will once more be done, ie the 139's, the limited buy of Mowags, the OPVs...

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118259897#Comment_118259897

While we would certainly get that in some form for the Russians, an airliner that goes non responsive might be another question?

Gary kk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118260831#Comment_118260831

What's wrong with mowags?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118261823#Comment_118261823

Too few, not enough variants procured, and far too long before getting upgrades. We can be very grateful we didn’t lose an entire section from IEDs or advanced RPGs.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118260570#Comment_118260570

It ticks no boxes.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118257869#Comment_118257869

WHat part do you have difficulty with?

You have identified a role for an aircraft: Interception. There are aircraft designed for this role. (the car in my analogy)

Instead you go with a type that is intended to train pilots to fly aircraft that are used for interception. (the expensive bicycle)

Others who use this type have proper Interceptors to do that job (the TDF folks)

We already have training aircraft. (the cheap bicycle)

You end up with the RAF protecting our skies (the train to Galway).

Experts have said as much. Armed Jet trainers, regardless of the fancy brochures, will not do this job.

Gary kk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118263075#Comment_118263075

You sure? Not one ?

Larbre34

I'm the first to say we need Interceptors, but if a modern light attack jet can reach Mach 1.5 and possesses a full suite of modern electronics and avionics, why wouldn't they suit a fairly basic need like Ireland's?

Lets be realistic, even if we got a squadron of Gripens or F-16s tomorrow, there's no way they could deploy at supersonic speed over land in a QRA, so any units would have to be based in the West or Northwest to immediately reach the sovereign airspace boundary over the ocean, in which case a Mach 1.5 aircraft would be sufficient to close on any civilian aircraft or Russian long range recon type at a speed ratio of over 2:1.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118263148#Comment_118263148

IDFOC on Twitter: "1/15 Here is the next thread on Air Policing following on from the last one on radar. This one is the issue of Quick Response Aircraft (QRA), which came up during the IDFOC Webinar on Ireland’s Air Capability. @BerryCathal @GCraughwell @IRLDeptDefence @nealerichmond @RACO_DF" / Twitter

Start here,

then watch this.

https://youtu.be/DAH3nC8UxKM

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118263413#Comment_118263413

As you say they should be based in the West (as should the MPA's imo), but even then with fuel tanks and a couple of IR missiles (most likely all we would buy at best) how long with the light fighter have if it had to sprint for say 30 minutes on afterburner to get on station?

There is also the supply chain issues, and before any says "sure it's basic enough stuff), so is virtually everything in the AC, yet we are currently having to fly the planes back to the manufacturers due to lack of personnel, and the CASAs have had history with getting spares, and far larger militaries have had availability issues due to supply chain issues. Is going to the other side of the world for a trainer/light fighter really the best option?