N21 - Newcastlewest [route options published]

marno21

Funding within TII's 2018 allocations for a relief road around Abbeyfeale and Newcastlewest.

It's disappointing that this is going ahead as a single carriageway as a 2+2 road from Rathkeale to Abbeyfeale would be justified.

Especially given that by 2023 or so, there will be a motorway from Limerick to Rathkeale

Quackster

Not really. Bypass or not, both towns need relief roads and it makes sense that the relief roads are built first and they'll cost a lot less and be built faster than a bypass would.

And I've no doubt that a proper bypass will be built eventually.

road_high

Quackster wrote: »

Not really. Bypass or not, both towns need relief roads and it makes sense that the relief roads are built first and they'll cost a lot less and be built faster than a bypass would.

And I've no doubt that a proper bypass will be built eventually.

Abbeyfeale is tiny! Does it really need a relief road in addition to a bypass?

Leonard Hofstadter

road_high wrote: »

Abbeyfeale is tiny! Does it really need a relief road in addition to a bypass?

I wouldn't have thought so, a bypass will do it just fine. Newcastle probably could though, it's a fairly important town in West Limerick

Quackster

road_high wrote: »

Abbeyfeale is tiny! Does it really need a relief road in addition to a bypass?

Given the distance from the town of the proposed route of a bypass and that for a bypass to function efficiency, it shouldn't be clogged with local traffic circulating around the town, a relief road would definitely be advantageous. It would also open the town up for further development.

Abbeyfeale is not that much smaller than Mitchelstown, which has a relief road as well as a bypass.

marno21

annfield1978 wrote: »

N4 Mullingar to Roosky will be out in the next couple of days for Phases 1 to 4.

Consultants have been appointed for the N21 Abbeyfeale and Newcastle West Bypasses

Consultants appointed to progress this feckless scheme through Phases 1-4 of TII's Project Management Guidelines.

The only saving grace would be if it were built as 2+2 along the proposed corridor for the Abbeyfeale-Rathkeale dual carriageway. Otherwise, it is a total waste of resources.

The Rathkeale bypass (which is a higher standard than this will be), is already being replaced by a motorway 25 years after opening. And remember, when the Rathkeale bypass opened, the nearest dual carriageway/motorway on the N21/N7 route was between Naas and Newbridge. This single carriageway bypass of Newcastlewest will be opening less than 10km west of the terminus of a motorway. Beyond shortsighted.

Limerick74

The two projects are being appraised together by the same consultant, so let's see the results of the appraisal process before giving out as usual. :rolleyes:

marno21

Limerick74 wrote: »

The two projects are being appraised together by the same consultant, so let's see the results of the appraisal process before giving out as usual. :rolleyes:

It would be fantastic if the results were positive, however, given TII applied to DTTAS for funding to progress two 6km single carriageway relief roads and there has been no mention of anything more to date.

I'm sure you, as well as me and many other posters here know that two 6km single carriageway relief roads won't cut the mustard today let alone by opening day.

And re: giving out. It's little wonder there's cause for giving out given the amount of time regular N21 users waste sitting either in the towns or in slow moving queues between the towns.

Pete_Cavan

Is it possible that they build single carriageway roads now but include for the possibility of upgrading them to some form of DC in the future?

marno21

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Is it possible that they build single carriageway roads now but include for the possibility of upgrading them to some form of DC in the future?

That’s what I’m hoping. But the cost of such an endeavor will be close to the cost of building the DC in the first place given the land take and structures required

In addition to the two relief roads not solving the issue of the entire 33km route being overcapacity

marno21

Tender out for traffic surveys

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/154366/1/0

marno21

Scheme website launched @ www.n21newcastlewest.ie

To me, the best solution here would be a 2+2 extension from the M21 end at Rathkeale to west of Newcastlewest. A similar 2+2 between the Limerick border and east of Abbeyfeale would leave a 12-14km gap between the two towns which could be infilled at a later date. It would address the traffic issues in both towns and complete more than half of the N21 Abbeyfeale-Rathkeale dual carriageway.

marno21

Tender out for LIDAR and orthographic surveys along the route

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/rwlentrance_s.asp?PID=158096&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1

road_high

marno21 wrote: »

Scheme website launched @ www.n21newcastlewest.ie

To me, the best solution here would be a 2+2 extension from the M21 end at Rathkeale to west of Newcastlewest. A similar 2+2 between the Limerick border and east of Abbeyfeale would leave a 12-14km gap between the two towns which could be infilled at a later date. It would address the traffic issues in both towns and complete more than half of the N21 Abbeyfeale-Rathkeale dual carriageway.

It would nd is needed but wouldn't be considerably more expensive also. They just don't seem to want or have the will to invest in what's needed. Perhaps a change of government might mean a change of direction but I'd be sceptical with the Greens sticking their oar in and blocking everything.

marno21

Route options to be published in late Q1 2021 according to scheme website.

According to TII this will be 10km of 2+2 expressway.

marno21

Route options will be published on Monday 1st February, 2021.

Mc Love

Never even knew about this, cant say I'm surprised, I usually bypass the N21 from Limerick to NCW myself taking cross country roads and manage to just come out near the pertrol station before the church

ongarboy

Mc Love wrote: »

Never even knew about this, cant say I'm surprised, I usually bypass the N21 from Limerick to NCW myself taking cross country roads and manage to just come out near the pertrol station before the church

But you're not actually bypassing NCW then if you end up back in the town near the church?

Being honest, of the three towns, Adare, Abbeyfeale and NCW that are not bypassed, I find NCW the least problematic and virtually always free flow. I think it's only if I'm unlucky to coincide my drives to Kerry during Mass times or school runs do I ever find NCW congested. Regardless, a bypass will still be most welcome for those long distance journeys!

marno21

ongarboy wrote: »

But you're not actually bypassing NCW then if you end up back in the town near the church?

Being honest, of the three towns, Adare, Abbeyfeale and NCW that are not bypassed, I find NCW the least problematic and virtually always free flow. I think it's only if I'm unlucky to coincide my drives to Kerry during Mass times or school runs do I ever find NCW congested. Regardless, a bypass will still be most welcome for those long distance journeys!

One thing that is important to note though is that NCW has the benefit of having Abbeyfeale regulate traffic coming from the Kerry side and Adare regulating traffic coming from the Limerick side.

Once the M21 is complete, and traffic is freeflowing from the M7/N18/M20 interchange all the way to Rathkeale, traffic will start building more in Newcastlewest.

Limerick74

Public consultation to commence on Monday https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/motoring-news/605642/public-consultation-to-begin-on-major-limerick-road-projects.html

steeler j

Looking forward to seeing the options for this scheme and see how much of a gap between this the the adare /foynes scheme

Limerick74

steeler j wrote: »

Looking forward to seeing the options for this scheme and see how much of a gap between this the the adare /foynes scheme

The gap is the distance between Rathkeale and some point outside of Newcastle West if they stick within the published study area.

steeler j

Limerick74 wrote: »

The gap is the distance between Rathkeale and some point outside of Newcastle West if they stick within the published study area.

If it goes to end of the study area ,that will leave about 6.5 km between the 2 schemes and I would be surprised they would leave it that short

Limerick74

Virtual consultation room now open on https://n21newcastlewest.ie/

marno21

Blue or yellow would be ideal here. Away from the town, direct, and can be integrated into the future N21 upgrade that will be required between Rathkeale and the end of this scheme.

The approach to the N21 in the NDP is bizarre to say the least. Routes such as the N17 (55km), N20 (80km), N24 (80km) are getting lengthy seamless dual carriageways. They are filling in gaps in the dual carriageway on the N4 and N25.

When these 2 schemes are done it will be:

M21 Patrickswell-Rathkeale (17km)
Single carriageway (~8-9km)
N21 Newcastlewest Relief Road (5-9km)
Single carriageway (12-15km)
N21 Abbeyfeale Relief Road (6-9km)
Single carriageway (14km)
N21 Castleisland bypass (4km)

There is no other road being developed in this manner.

On the plus side, these smaller relief roads will get through planning quicker and be with ABP in 2023, and would be ready for construction in 2026 or so. They'll be ahead of the bigger schemes in the queue so might hit the ground running.

steeler j

marno21 wrote: »

Blue or yellow would be ideal here. Away from the town, direct, and can be integrated into the future N21 upgrade that will be required between Rathkeale and the end of this scheme.

The approach to the N21 in the NDP is bizarre to say the least. Routes such as the N17 (55km), N20 (80km), N24 (80km) are getting lengthy seamless dual carriageways. They are filling in gaps in the dual carriageway on the N4 and N25.

When these 2 schemes are done it will be:

M21 Patrickswell-Rathkeale (17km)
Single carriageway (~8-9km)
N21 Newcastlewest Relief Road (5-9km)
Single carriageway (12-15km)
N21 Abbeyfeale Relief Road (6-9km)
Single carriageway (14km)
N21 Castleisland bypass (4km)

There is no other road being developed in this manner.

On the plus side, these smaller relief roads will get through planning quicker and be with ABP in 2023, and would be ready for construction in 2026 or so. They'll be ahead of the bigger schemes in the queue so might hit the ground running.

Blue route would be my choice ,I can see something happening with in a year of this scheme opening , something like the Waterford to Glenmore scheme where they fill in the part between Rathkeale and Newcastle West

Monagea55

I'm a little confused by the routes.
Blue & Yellow look like Newcastle West bypass routes.
Green & Purple look more like relief roads designed to aid traffic movement within and around the town.

Given that a relief road has been in the local area plan since 2007 it's hard to envisage any road development in the next 10 years.

awaywithyou

marno21 wrote: »

Blue or yellow would be ideal here. Away from the town, direct, and can be integrated into the future N21 upgrade that will be required between Rathkeale and the end of this scheme.

The approach to the N21 in the NDP is bizarre to say the least. Routes such as the N17 (55km), N20 (80km), N24 (80km) are getting lengthy seamless dual carriageways. They are filling in gaps in the dual carriageway on the N4 and N25.

When these 2 schemes are done it will be:

M21 Patrickswell-Rathkeale (17km)
Single carriageway (~8-9km)
N21 Newcastlewest Relief Road (5-9km)
Single carriageway (12-15km)
N21 Abbeyfeale Relief Road (6-9km)
Single carriageway (14km)
N21 Castleisland bypass (4km)

There is no other road being developed in this manner.

On the plus side, these smaller relief roads will get through planning quicker and be with ABP in 2023, and would be ready for construction in 2026 or so. They'll be ahead of the bigger schemes in the queue so might hit the ground running.

Should be planning a dual carriage way/motorway to bypass all 3 towns... as u said in a previous post the shortsightedness of the plans are a shame....

spacetweek

I'm never a fan of bypasses that intersect the original route at right angles (in this case the green and pink routes). They are awkward to continue on later and we'll be doing that here.

Intern4l

Does anyone know which would be the most preferable route a,b,c,d. Pink route c looks less intrusive overall. But the angles of entry exit seem a little awkward to say the least in regards to dual carriage way status which the bypass is forecast for

Cookiemunster

I'm pretty sure that very wide indicative lines on the map don't necessarily mean a right angle junction. They can easily change the path of the current N21 to tie in seamlessly with the new road.

Pete_Cavan

The Pink route would seem to make more sense if it joined the existing N21 where the Orange route does on the Limerick side of the town. On the Kerry side, for just 1km extra of road, it could remove the sweeping bend from the N21 (but also then needs a new link road for the town, like the western end of the Green route). As it is drawn, Pink looks merely alright but if the western tie-in was moved a bit further west and the eastern tie-in was moved a bit further east, it becomes much more attractive IMO.

Intern4l

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that very wide indicative lines on the map don't necessarily mean a right angle junction. They can easily change the path of the current N21 to tie in seamlessly with the new road.

Your correct. The Corridor (line) represents a 400m span to which they can manoeuvre within that constraint and as a dual carriage way is only about 25m wide plenty of room to refine.

marno21

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/motoring-news/623708/traffic-surveys-planned-for-limerick-towns-as-bypass-projects-are-progressed.html

Traffic surveys to commence next week

Mc Love

Dont think its a great time to be doing a survey when people cant even leave their own county

L1011

They haven't got much choice - delay everything for what could easily end up being nearly two years from start to finish (if you were due to do the survey March 2020); or apply some correction factors based on what reductions we know are happening nationwide on other counters.

KrisW1001

In some ways, it may make things clearer: if traffic levels are lower overall, people will take the more direct route to their destinations.

tubbs26

Delighted to see something being done here. Travel from Kildare to Kerry regularly and anything that shortens the journey is welcome.

Excuse my ignorance but what is the difference between a relief road and a by pass? To me these options look like by passes. Does a relief road have junctions whereas by pass has flyovers?

What would the road around Enfield in Meath built in the 00s be considered?

spacetweek

tubbs26 wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance but what is the difference between a relief road and a by pass?

Honestly I don't think there is a difference.
Relief road is a silly name that implies that building more roads "relieves" traffic in the urban centre. "Big Road Past a Town" would be a better name.

KrisW1001

A bypass takes through-traffic out of a town or city. A relief road re-routes traffic within a town or city.

The confusion is that, in the past, we've built relief roads and pretended that they were bypasses (e.g., Dungarvan, Sligo)

marno21

Preferred route by end of 2021

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/motoring-news/675739/hundreds-of-submissions-received-regarding-plans-for-bypasses-of-limerick-towns.html

marno21

Preferred route to be published next Tuesday.

Limerick74

Preferred route published https://n21newcastlewest.ie/

marno21

Preferred route published @ https://www.n21newcastlewest.ie

North of the town with a junction on the R521 to Foynes. Planned to be off to ABP in 2023. There is a strong likelihood of this getting built given the pro-bypass plans of the Government

Limerick74

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118141370#Comment_118141370

Where did you get "next year" for submission to ABP? The scheme brochure says 2023 for Submission to An Bord Pleanála?

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118141678#Comment_118141678

I corrected my initial post there my apologies, I hadn’t seen at the time either that you had posted before me.

Either way, good to see this moving forward. If it does get to ABP and beyond at that timescale the N21 will look very different by 2030.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118141370#Comment_118141370

Yes but will it still be dual carriageway or will it get downsized?

pajoguy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143374#Comment_118143374

Type 2 Dual Carriagway at best Id imagine. Castleisland/tralee bypass spec.

marno21

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/planning/695324/opposition-grows-over-preferred-route-for-bypass-of-limerick-town.html

Chris_5339762

For gods sake the Greenway runs alongside the N21 around Rathkeale and up the hill near Templeglantine next to the road itself so that sounds like fishing for problems, it won't destroy it.

Cookiemunster

The Leader is a rag and these types of articles should be ignored. Theres no actual story here. People have put submissions into the public consultation on a 300m wide corridor. So what? That's what it's for and any issues will be dealt with when is comes to designing the actual route.