Bendy buses? Good, bad or abomination?

thomasj

Bambi wrote:

Has no more access points than double deckers and was worse than a double decker for wheelie types, much narrower aisles and (from memory) the wheelchair/buggy space was a single unit behind the articulation point, so you had the wheel the thing down the bus and across the merry go round bendy bit

Just to clear up maybe I'm getting confused .

Are the BRT buses planned for Dublin, considered to be bendybuses? They will have 3 sets of doors and more space for buggies and wheelchairs

Sam Russell

thomasj wrote: »

Just to clear up maybe I'm getting confused .

Are the BRT buses planned for Dublin, considered to be bendybuses? They will have 3 sets of doors and more space for buggies and wheelchairs

If they have three axles then they are bendies. If they have four or more axles then they are more like trams and would be OK as long as they do not try to turn a corner.

In fact there was a proposal to run a 'Blue' line along the N11 from Dundrum/Sandyford to St Vincent's Hospital. Not sure what happened to the proposal or who was behind it. That proposal appeared to be going to use a higher grade bus - more like a tram. They may have been talking of a BRT service.

jayobray

Bray Head wrote: »

They would work absolutely fine along the N11 terminating at SSG. Likewise in from Lucan terminating around Heuston.

These routes have no sharp turns and are more or less all bus lane.

You would have to adjust the lengths of the stops, have less of them, and use all of the doors of course. Something which is beyond the capacity of Dublin Bus to deliver.

But they would have to be turned to do the reverse journey, and that would be difficult, especially in the city centre.

Zebra3

Bambi wrote: »

The bendy buses had the same amount of access points as the other dublin buses..two.

And when the middle doors were not used (which will happen with the best will in the world) it was a nightmare pushing your way up from the back to use the front doors.

The ones in Zürich that I’m referring to had four.

bk

The advantage of BRT over double deckers are:

- Can carry more passengers then a double decker
- Quicker dwell times as people don't have to make their way upstairs.
- More of the space actually used, you don't get the situation where their are empty seats upstairs but people don't realise it.
- More space for people with mobility disabilities who can't get up a stairs
- Better security as less of the upstairs messing
- More space for wheelchairs and buggies

If you have used a well designed BRT anywhere in Europe then you know they are fantastic. Three to four doors, entry/exit through all doors, very low dwell times. Basically they are like the Luas but without the tracks.

No point in talking about the old bendy buses tried by Dublin Bus. It was typical Irish half arsed attempt, where it seems they did absolutely everything wrong and maybe that was the point, maybe they wanted it to fail from the start!

- Buy the bendy bus from a company with no experience in building them
- Only two doors and rear door almost never used
- Put them on routes not suited to them
- Don't update the bus stops or roads to support them.

Of course it was a disaster, this was faulty towers level of incompetency.

We certainly don't want this style of "bendy bus" back. But European style BRT, built by a company with a great track record in them, operated properly, along routes where it makes sense and with stops and road infrastructure upgraded to support them. Then they will be widely succesful.

BTW the VT class are the worst bus in the Dublin Bus fleet. Sure they can take the most people. But their single door and big size mean they have terrible dwell time when full and for passengers they are a nightmare to get in and out of.

If you want to see a really nice, well operated big double decker, then look at Berlin tri-axles. Three doors, two stairs, enter through the front door, up the front stairs, exit via the rear stairs and rear door. Middle door used by wheelchairs and buggies. Very sensible and logical.

Dyr

bk wrote: »

- Put them on routes not suited to them
- Don't update the bus stops or roads to support them.

Those are two great points on why bendy buses should be avoided like the plague, tail wagging dog stuff right there when you're redesigning everything else just to suit a piece of hardware

Carrying more people because there's more standing room isn't a selling point either, we should be trying to eliminate standing altogether to improve bus speeds

bk

Bambi wrote: »

Those are two great points on why bendy buses should be avoided like the plague, tail wagging dog stuff right there when you're redesigning everything else just to suit a piece of hardware

You mean like like adding tracks for Luas or digging tunnels for MN/DU or hell even making bus lanes for Dublin Bus!!

Bambi wrote: »

Carrying more people because there's more standing room isn't a selling point either, we should be trying to eliminate standing altogether to improve bus speeds

Another major failing in Dublin Bus thinking. Everyone needs a seat, since it will take forever to get home, due to horrible dwell time due to stairs and single door operations and terrible ticketing, along with wonderful mystery tours through every estate along the way.

Modern public transport is supposed to be fast and efficient. You don't need lots of seats if the journey is quick. People don't mind standing if it is a quick journey and it allows you to fit more people on a bus.

A modern speedy bus service along core routes into the city, with very low dwell times and no trips off into estates along the way and people will love it.

Dyr

bk wrote: »

A modern speedy bus service along core routes into the city, with very low dwell times and no trips off into estates along the way and people will love it.

Buses have reduced speed limits when there are standing passengers..standing=slow

Snowseer

Bambi wrote: »

So all we have to do is redesign the city for the sake of bendy buses, sounds reasonable

I'm trying to think of a single benefit those jalopys actually brought...nope nothing.

What a great word!

bk

Bambi wrote: »

Buses have reduced speed limits when there are standing passengers..standing=slow

80km/h

BTW when I said speedy, I meant compared to the very low average speed of Dublin Bus, just 17km/h!

No one is saying that they would be flying along at 120km/h

Stephen15

The only thing about getting bendy buses for Dublin that I don't think there is that many continental manufacturer making bendy buses in right hand drive given their low demand in the UK. It's a little bit like the whole Irish gauge thing with IE having to custom spec rolling costing more than off the shelve rolling stock.

I'm not sure if Citaro bendys are still made in right hand and any bendy bus Wright's have made have been rubbish. Although the Belfast BRT is using VanHool buses which look extremely ugly IMO and unsually the drivers cab is completely separated from the passengers. It will be interesting to see how the system in Belfast works.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

The only thing about getting bendy buses for Dublin that I don't think there is that many continental manufacturer making bendy buses in right hand drive given their low demand in the UK. It's a little bit like the whole Irish gauge thing with IE having to custom spec rolling costing more than off the shelve rolling stock.

I'm not sure if Citaro bendys are still made in right hand and any bendy bus Wright's have made have been rubbish.

Good point.

However VanHool, one of the best bus and coach manufacturers around are making a BRT for Belfast, based on their very well regarded Exqui.City range.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

Good point.

However VanHool, one of the best bus and coach manufacturers around are making a BRT for Belfast, based on their very well regarded Exqui.City range.

I wonder do these buses have an emergency talk to the driver button and speaker similar to the Luas. I also wonder will revenue protection work similar to the Luas with common checks and will security be required.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

I wonder do these buses have an emergency talk to the driver button and speaker similar to the Luas. I also wonder will revenue protection work similar to the Luas with common checks and will security be required.

I don't know, but going by the plans seen on swiftway, everything else seemed to look like the Luas. Luas style stops, Luas style ticket machines, etc. So I wouldn't be surprised if these were also similar.

devnull

bk wrote: »

However VanHool, one of the best bus and coach manufacturers around are making a BRT for Belfast, based on their very well regarded Exqui.City range.

The last time we saw something like that in the UK was the FTR by First in Swansea, York and Leeds - it was a complete disaster and the vast majority of the vehicles have sat out of use after far less than 6 years of service and are about to go to the scrapyard and First have had to list them as an impaired asset on their accounts since nobody within their bus operating division wants them and those which do use articulated vehicles would much rather user older conventional articulated vehicles which are more practical.

I'm not convinced it's going to be much different here. The problem with the FTR was it was more expensive to procure and more expensive to run because it was non standard which made parts more expensive when compared to traditional vehicles and problems with ticketing because the driver was separated completely from the passengers meant that conductors had to be hired as well massively increasing costs. The thing with the Citaro is it might not be the worlds cheapest bus but it's the top selling bus in Europe over the last decade so parts and support are readily and more cheaply available.

Stephen15 wrote: »

I'm not sure if Citaro bendys are still made in right hand and any bendy bus Wright's have made have been rubbish. Although the Belfast BRT is using VanHool buses which look extremely ugly IMO and unsually the drivers cab is completely separated from the passengers. It will be interesting to see how the system in Belfast works.

Still available - some were built for Bristol Airport in/2017.

See my comments above about the flaws with the ticketing system with the FTR.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

The last time we saw something like that in the UK was the FTR by First in Swansea, York and Leeds - it was a complete disaster and the vast majority of the vehicles have sat out of use after far less than 6 years of service and are about to go to the scrapyard and First have had to list them as an impaired asset on their accounts since nobody within their bus operating division wants them and those which do use articulated vehicles would much rather user older conventional articulated vehicles which are more practical.

I'm not convinced it's going to be much different here. The problem with the FTR was it was more expensive to procure and more expensive to run because it was non standard which made parts more expensive when compared to traditional vehicles and problems with ticketing because the driver was separated completely from the passengers meant that conductors had to be hired as well massively increasing costs. The thing with the Citaro is it might not be the worlds cheapest bus but it's the top selling bus in Europe over the last decade so parts and support are readily and more cheaply available.

In the prototypes I have seen for the Belfast BRT it seems all ticketing will be off board similar to the Luas with ticket machines and validators at the stops. So no need for a conductor but likely a need for ticket inspectors.

Your right though conventional bendy buses are probably better as long as parts are easier to get as long as there is no driver interaction. Have the drivers cab completely sealed off with no little holes to discourage passengers from speaking to him/her.

donvito99

Ashbx wrote: »

Bendy buses take up twice the space on roads and carry same amount of passengers as double deckers so I think they should be got rid of.

There are articulated buses that carry upwards of 200 passengers in normal passenger operation on the continent.

Your bog standard articulated bus carries in the region of 50% more passengers than the bog standard AV in Dublin.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

In the prototypes I have seen for the Belfast BRT it seems all ticketing will be off board similar to the Luas with ticket machines and validators at the stops. So no need for a conductor but likely a need for ticket inspectors.

Originally there was supposed to be ticket machines on the FTR and there was for a very short while but there were problems with both the practicalities of them and also the issue with fare evasion - there was some consideration to install at stop machines but it never happened.

I hope it works and they don't make the same mistakes that First made with the FTR since those were one of the biggest white elephants in UK bus history and nobody wanted them once they were withdrawn from service.

What will be key to this will be maintenance and reliability of the ticket machines, good revenue protection, the durability of the vehicles and the amount of and cost of the required maintenance.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

Originally there was supposed to be ticket machines on the FTR and there was for a very short while but there were problems with both the practicalities of them and also the issue with fare evasion - there was some consideration to install at stop machines but it never happened.

I hope it works and they don't make the same mistakes that First made with the FTR since those were one of the biggest white elephants in UK bus history and nobody wanted them once they were withdrawn from service.

What will be key to this will be maintenance and reliability of the ticket machines, good revenue protection, the durability of the vehicles and the amount of and cost of the required maintenance.

According to this article the tickets machines were on board rather at the stop and hard to use aswell as being exact change only rather than accepting notes and cards aswell as giving change. This was controversial to UK passengers as most bus services there still give change.

http://publictransportexperience.blogspot.ie/2011/11/ftrs-bright-ftrs-purple-1.html

I could see such a system being successful if they have Luas style ticket machines. London's bendy buses also used to have off board ticket machines which were similar and like parking meters rather standard public transport tvms.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

According to this article the tickets machines were on board rather at the stop and hard to use aswell as being exact change only rather than accepting notes and cards aswell as giving change. This was controversial to UK passengers as most bus services there still give change.

I stated in my original post that they were having the machines on-board at the start but they didn't last long, there was a proposal for on street machines but you have to remember this was approx 10 years ago now and technology was very different then to what it is now.

I could see such a system being successful if they have Luas style ticket machines. London's bendy buses also used to have off board ticket machines which were similar and like parking meters rather standard public transport tvms.

Everything will depend on the ticketing system and the reliability of it, how well revenue protection is carried out and the cost of running the vehicles, reliability and maintenance. If Translink were very sensible then you'd hope that they have worked some kind of maintenance contract into the package for the new vehicles so they don't get burnt later on.

Stephen15

Another thing about the FTR is weren't BE planning similar for some of the regional cities.

bk

What they are doing in Belfast with BRT is basically Luas, but with a bus.

The bus stops look almost exactly like Luas stops, off bus ticket vending machines like Luas, with separate smart card validators, like Luas.

Driver is fully cut off from the passengers, like Luas (I'd assume their are emergency buttons/intercoms), see the following:

http://www.exquicity.be/en/

I'd assume it will have more ticket inspectors like Luas.

I know it is a bus, but in terms of how they are operated, probably better to think of them like a Luas in terms of operations.

- Dedicated stops just for them.
- All doors open at all stops
- Enter/exit through any door
- Tickets bought/validated off the BRT
- No interaction with the driver
- Ticket inspectors

Basically just like Luas.

devnull

bk wrote: »

What they are doing in Belfast with BRT is basically Luas, but with a bus.

The bus stops look almost exactly like Luas stops, off bus ticket vending machines like Luas, with separate smart card validators, like Luas.

Driver is fully cut off from the passengers, like Luas (I'd assume their are emergency buttons/intercoms), see the following:

http://www.exquicity.be/en/

I'd assume it will have more ticket inspectors like Luas.

I know it is a bus, but in terms of how they are operated, probably better to think of them like a Luas in terms of operations.

- Dedicated stops just for them.
- All doors open at all stops
- Enter/exit through any door
- Tickets bought/validated off the BRT
- No interaction with the driver
- Ticket inspectors

Basically just like Luas.

The FTR was sold exactly like a tram on rubber like the Glider is and had dedicated infrastructure, multi door boarding and exit, no driver interaction, dedicated stops and even dedicated lanes and road infrastructure in Swansea just for them and an extra staff member on each vehicle.

Sure the Glider will not have the same fare system problems that the FTR did, but the vehicle is essentially a Vanhool version of the same thing in many respects, with a better ticketing system which if reliable, will certainly sort out one of the big issues with the FTR, if such ticketing system is reliable and properly policed.

However the costs of running these is going to be far more than a Mercedes Citaro if Translink didn't agree a maintenance contract with it, with far more expensive parts that will not be so easy to get hold of and virtually zero resale market.

I've also read that the spec of these vehicles means that they are only going to be capable of 40mph as well, although it's not clear if that is a design limit or one that is being placed because of standing passengers.

It has a better chance of succeeding than the FTR, but it's nowhere near a foregone conclusion.

dfx-

I use the three bendibuses still left in service in Coventry. They are a bit scruffy and have a pointless barrier at the back door. I'd prefer a VT which can carry the same amount of people.

Thankfully though, Coventry's fleet is hugely mixed between Enviro400 MMCs, old Dennis Tridents and the odd single decker, all single doors. The bendibuses are all on route 4 and labelled as such. But you're a likely to get a single door bus old or new instead.

All their newer buses are single doors, so despite the existence of rare enough (these days) bendibuses, they are happy to go on with single doors. There isn't the torturous debate that exists in Dublin about how many doors, bus stop redesign and how the bus should be best utilised.

There's no need for dual doors, Dublin are over paying for what they're getting.

devnull

dfx- wrote: »

I use the three bendibuses still left in service in Coventry. They are a bit scruffy and have a pointless barrier at the back door. I'd prefer a VT which can carry the same amount of people.

I wouldn't because the dwell time on buses with one door and driver interaction is chronic and this is something that is very much specific to the UK and Ireland and this problem tends not to exist in other countries in Mainland Europe, I do not know why we are so behind the curve ball but we are.

Both in the UK and Ireland in big cities dwell time at stops is massive, especially through the city center and other busy areas. I used to ride the 4/7 from the city center to Ballsbridge and literally half the journey time was dwell time without fail. A multiple door bus with no driver interaction can load the same number of people in 5-10 seconds that the current setup will take a few minutes for.

All their newer buses are single doors, so despite the existence of rare enough (these days) bendibuses, they are happy to go on with single doors. There isn't the torturous debate that exists in Dublin about how many doors, bus stop redesign and how the bus should be best utilised.

I wouldn't look to the UK outside London for an efficient way of running a bus service, because honestly whilst the UK does some things right, there are a lot better examples to be found in mainland Europe

There's no need for dual doors, Dublin are over paying for what they're getting.

What we're paying for right now is for a dual door system which is still being operated on infrastructure and a fare and ticketing system that does not make the benefit of it - this is similar to the problem with the articulated vehicles in the UK in the past. They've put vehicles on the routes but see nowhere near the benefits of them because the operating environment is such that it does not allow them to see such benefits.

A system that reduces dwell time would allow buses to complete their journey faster, meaning less buses would be needed to operate the timetable and also attract new passengers which would allow more funding to be freed up to beef up services elsewhere that really need the buses rather than spending chronic amounts of time at bus stops.

Bray Head

The problem with introducing bendy buses in Dublin is an organisational one, not an engineering one.

cgcsb

Bambi wrote: »

Even if you disregard the Dublin bus implementation, articulated buses don't add any benefits to the existing fleet and they bring their own set of fairly substantial problems so there's no point to them.

The bouncing wasn't just the middle it was often the entire rear carriage, like there was some kind of suspension engagement system that was turned off.

Well multi door operation and off board ticketing are the benefits.

cgcsb

Sam Russell wrote: »

All the new double deckers are two door, and most drivers now open the rear doors. The buses with only a front door are from 2004, those from 2012 and later all have rear doors.

You can't rely on the driver to open the back door, you still have to battle your way to the front if you want to be sure not to miss your stop.

cgcsb

Bray Head wrote: »

I had read somewhere that double deckers are more common in former British colonies because rail bridges are generally built with a higher standard clearance.

Is this true?

I doubt that's true. You don't see double deckers in Aus or NZ, USA, Can, India. They do have them in Hong Kong and in South Africa in certain parts whether that's a British or a Dutch colony is a matter of historical debate. Most of the rest of the British colonies are very poor countries with very little formal public transport.

cgcsb

Bambi wrote: »

Buses have reduced speed limits when there are standing passengers..standing=slow

It's not formula 1 like. Speedy in an urban context meaning you can comfortably get from O'Connell Bridge to the M50 in 25 minutes at peak times. It needn't be a 120km/h bullet bus.