Bendy buses? Good, bad or abomination?

Sam Russell

Mod: This thread has been split from Metro North to a new thread as it is off topic for Metro North.

yer man! wrote: »

This is basically a bus, a lot more could be achieved for lower cost with a segregated bus lane and using bendy buses.

No, not bendy buses! They are an abomination. Bouncy, noisy, slow, and smelly. They have no advantage over the double-decker we know so well.

The six wheeler that is used on the 46A and the 145 is much better.

The old trolley bus is a good solution still used in Geneva. O/H wires and rubber tyres. Accelerates fast (as it is electric) and quiet for the same reason, with no pollution.

Stephen15

Sam Russell wrote: »

No, not bendy buses! They are an abomination. Bouncy, noisy, slow, and smelly. They have no advantage over the double-decker we know so well.

The six wheeler that is used on the 46A and the 145 is much better.

The old trolley bus is a good solution still used in Geneva. O/H wires and rubber tyres. Accelerates fast (as it is electric) and quiet for the same reason, with no pollution.

The bendy buses were only bad because no changes were made to road or stop layout to accommodate them. I travelled on them on the continent and they worked very well as the roads and stops were suited towards and the buses had three or four doors allowing swift boarding and alighting. The ones I travelled on were not bouncy either.

Dyr

The bendy buses were a nightmare, it often felt like the rear coach had no suspension but the driver never noticed because he was in a different coach. The engine would heat the bejaysus out of the rear seats too.

They leaked what I assume was hydraulic fluid onto passengers as well, just for good measure

Stephen15

Bambi wrote: »

The bendy buses were a nightmare, it often felt like the rear coach had no suspension but the driver never noticed because he was in a different coach. The engine would heat the bejaysus out of the rear seats too.

They leaked what I assume was hydraulic fluid onto passengers as well, just for good measure

They were a disaster because there no proper planning or thought went into them. It was thought they could operate in the same manner a standard single or double decker would operate. Bendy buses need longer stops to allow passenger board and disembark at multiple doors and drivers should have been given better training to operate them.

Also Wrighbus were a poor choice as they did not have much prior experience of building Bendy buses as they only manufacture buses for the UK and Irish market where Bendy buses are not common. They should have gone for a continental manufacturer.

Dyr

Not sure what the bus stops have to do with the yokes death rattling and leaking fluid like a Lancaster bomber coming back from Berlin

Even if they had the bestest bendy buses driven by the bestest drivers they would still be the wrong model for a city centre like Dublin

Stephen15

Bambi wrote: »

Not sure what the bus stops have to do with the yokes death rattling and leaking fluid like a Lancaster bomber coming back from Berlin

Even if they had the bestest bendy buses driven by the bestest drivers they would still be the wrong model for a city centre like Dublin

QBC's such the Stillorgan Road and the Lucan Road would be perfect for them if the stops were right. The buses they bought were crap not the idea of running bendy buses. The reason they are not suited to Dublin is because Dublin has not adapted itself for their operation with various things like road layout and stop layout if we could change those then they would work fine like they do in other cities.

Dyr

Stephen15 wrote: »

QBC's such the Stillorgan Road and the Lucan Road would be perfect for them if the stops were right. The buses they bought were crap not the idea of running bendy buses. The reason they are not suited to Dublin is because Dublin has not adapted itself for their operation with various things like road layout and stop layout if we could change those then they would work fine like they do in other cities.

So all we have to do is redesign the city for the sake of bendy buses, sounds reasonable

I'm trying to think of a single benefit those jalopys actually brought...nope nothing.

Stephen15

Bambi wrote: »

So all we have to do is redesign the city for the sake of bendy buses, sounds reasonable

I'm trying to think of a single benefit those jalopys actually brought...nope nothing.

No a few twerks to road layout here and there such as better segragated bus lanes, longer bus stops and better segragated cycle lanes and bendy buses could work well these changes would be more a case of proper urban road planning which would benefit all road users rather than designing the roads only for bendybuses.

Having bendy buses (running properly) as opposed to double deckers would have the benefits of reduced dwell times resulting in buses running to schedule more so than on one or two door double deckers where passengers are boarding and alighting at the same door. Bendy Buses can also carry more people than double deckers as most have the same seated capacity and a much larger standing capacity.

Zebra3

Use them when visiting Zürich. No issues with them and actually quite like them as their dwells times are absolutely minimal.

Sam Russell

In Nice they use very short buses with maybe 20 seats and standing for 67 passengers. They are like mobile sardine tins but very efficient and quick, and very cheap - €1.50 for a 90 minute duration ticket.

Not a bend in the bus.

blanch152

Stephen15 wrote: »

No a few twerks to road layout here and there such as better segragated bus lanes, longer bus stops and better segragated cycle lanes and bendy buses could work well these changes would be more a case of proper urban road planning which would benefit all road users rather than designing the roads only for bendybuses.

Having bendy buses (running properly) as opposed to double deckers would have the benefits of reduced dwell times resulting in buses running to schedule more so than on one or two door double deckers where passengers are boarding and alighting at the same door. Bendy Buses can also carry more people than double deckers as most have the same seated capacity and a much larger standing capacity.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Use them when visiting Zürich. No issues with them and actually quite like them as their dwells times are absolutely minimal.

There are very few routes that would only need a few twerks to run bendy buses. There would be a lot more changes needed. A much more cost-effective solution to delayed bus journeys would be banning cyclists and taxis from bus lanes during morning and evening peak travel.

The dwell time issue can be solved by having swipe on/swipe off Leap card infrastructure at bus stops rather than single swipe on bus/talk to driver if short distance arrangement as at present.

Dyr

Zebra3 wrote: »

Use them when visiting Zürich. No issues with them and actually quite like them as their dwells times are absolutely minimal.

I've used them there too but the Swiss transport system is a model of efficiency and that's not down to them putting an articulated joint in the middle of the buses.

Stephen15

Bambi wrote: »

I've used them there too but the Swiss transport system is a model of efficiency and that's not down to them putting an articulated joint in the middle of the buses.

But it is somewhat efficient to run bendy buses as they are larger than normal single deckers and don't have as bad dwell times as double deckers.

Cities in Europe tend to utilise bendy buses in a similar manner that here in Dublin we utilise the VT class buses. A continental single decker can carry more than a double decker due it having more standing room.

Skedaddle

I don't understand why the Bendy Busses that Dublin Bus had for a while were so bouncy in the middle. There seemed to be something seriously wrong with them.

I have travelled on similar bus layouts all over Europe, and also at Dublin Airport and there were no such issues.

It looked to me like it was a problem specific to the Dublin bus fleet, as there's no way that those kinds of articulated busses can work absolutely everywhere else on the planet except Irish cities. I understand our sense of Irish exceptionalism, but this is really beyond ridiculous.

Dyr

Skedaddle wrote: »

I don't understand why the Bendy Busses that Dublin Bus had for a while were so bouncy in the middle. There seemed to be something seriously wrong with them.

I have travelled on similar bus layouts all over Europe, and also at Dublin Airport and there were no such issues.

It looked to me like it was a problem specific to the Dublin bus fleet, as there's no way that those kinds of articulated busses can work absolutely everywhere else on the planet except Irish cities. I understand our sense of Irish exceptionalism, but this is really beyond ridiculous.

Even if you disregard the Dublin bus implementation, articulated buses don't add any benefits to the existing fleet and they bring their own set of fairly substantial problems so there's no point to them.

The bouncing wasn't just the middle it was often the entire rear carriage, like there was some kind of suspension engagement system that was turned off.

Sam Russell

The bendies were used on the number ten route that required a turn from Clare St into Lincon Place and from there onto Westland Road. The latter turn was not possible with oncoming traffic, and the bendy had to take up the whole road to manage it. It caused significant delays.

I cannot see any advantage over the normal double decker, except that they might be able to fit under a low bridge - not that we have any of those served by buses.

Ashbx

Bendy buses take up twice the space on roads and carry same amount of passengers as double deckers so I think they should be got rid of.

Especially with the luas going through the city centre, bendy buses on the luas tracks would be a disaster!

plodder

The bendy buses used by the DAA at Dublin airport seem fine to me. They'd be configured differently for public transport though presumably.

They might make sense if they get rid of cash fares and on board ticket issuing. You could board at the front and tag on, and get off at the rear, tagging off. I don't understand why they got rid of the two door double-deckers. If they still existed you could do the same with them.

Sam Russell

plodder wrote: »

The bendy buses used by the DAA at Dublin airport seem fine to me. They'd be configured differently for public transport though presumably.

They might make sense if they get rid of cash fares and on board ticket issuing. You could board at the front and tag on, and get off at the rear, tagging off. I don't understand why they got rid of the two door double-deckers. If they still existed you could do the same with them.

All the new double deckers are two door, and most drivers now open the rear doors. The buses with only a front door are from 2004, those from 2012 and later all have rear doors.

Atlantic Dawn

For heavy city traffic getting through junctions they are a bad idea, they either have to block the road up on other traffic or wait for an eternity to get enough space to progress through them.

plodder

I think I'd agree, they'd never work in Dublin city centre. Maybe for orbital routes that don't go near city centre.

RobbingBandit

Number 4 turning at Griffith Avenue junction onto Ballymun road crashed twice and wrecked two other cars by clipping them never anyway for driver to monitor the full length of the bus neither inside or out.

They would serve great as shuttle buses but anywhere with corners or roundabouts they're just plain dangerous to even think of using

Bray Head

They would work absolutely fine along the N11 terminating at SSG. Likewise in from Lucan terminating around Heuston. 

These routes have no sharp turns and are more or less all bus lane.

You would have to adjust the lengths of the stops, have less of them, and use all of the doors of course. Something which is beyond the capacity of Dublin Bus to deliver.

Skedaddle

They seem to work no problem all over France in cities with plenty of turns and roundabouts.

Zebra3

Bambi wrote: »

I've used them there too but the Swiss transport system is a model of efficiency and that's not down to them putting an articulated joint in the middle of the buses.

The multiple entry and exits points make a huge difference to dwell times though I’m not for a minute suggesting they’ll solve everything.

thomasj

I do remember when they were using bendybuses on the 39s, this was before the James Joyce bridge was built and buses for blanchardstown were using that narrow bridge behind it.

As a result these 39s had to go down to the bridge at heuston, and head back up.

Shows that there wasn't enough thought put into planning when they were getting these buses.

Hopefully there's a bit more forethought when they are planning the BRT

wakka12

I don't see any advantage really over double decker. Im guessing they hold similar amount of passengers, and double deckers take up much less road space. And look better (imo)

Dyr

Zebra3 wrote: »

The multiple entry and exits points make a huge difference to dwell times though I’m not for a minute suggesting they’ll solve everything.

The bendy buses had the same amount of access points as the other dublin buses..two.

And when the middle doors were not used (which will happen with the best will in the world) it was a nightmare pushing your way up from the back to use the front doors.

thomasj

wakka12 wrote:

I don't see any advantage really over double decker. Im guessing they hold similar amount of passengers, and double deckers take up much less road space. And look better (imo)

More buggies, wheelchair users etc

And you can put more entry/exit points than on double deckers .

Bray Head

I had read somewhere that double deckers are more common in former British colonies because rail bridges are generally built with a higher standard clearance.

Is this true?

Dyr

thomasj wrote: »

More buggies, wheelchair users etc

And you can put more entry/exit points than on double deckers .

Has no more access points than double deckers and was worse than a double decker for wheelie types, much narrower aisles and (from memory) the wheelchair/buggy space was a single unit behind the articulation point, so you had the wheel the thing down the bus and across the merry go round bendy bit

thomasj

Bambi wrote:

Has no more access points than double deckers and was worse than a double decker for wheelie types, much narrower aisles and (from memory) the wheelchair/buggy space was a single unit behind the articulation point, so you had the wheel the thing down the bus and across the merry go round bendy bit

Just to clear up maybe I'm getting confused .

Are the BRT buses planned for Dublin, considered to be bendybuses? They will have 3 sets of doors and more space for buggies and wheelchairs

Sam Russell

thomasj wrote: »

Just to clear up maybe I'm getting confused .

Are the BRT buses planned for Dublin, considered to be bendybuses? They will have 3 sets of doors and more space for buggies and wheelchairs

If they have three axles then they are bendies. If they have four or more axles then they are more like trams and would be OK as long as they do not try to turn a corner.

In fact there was a proposal to run a 'Blue' line along the N11 from Dundrum/Sandyford to St Vincent's Hospital. Not sure what happened to the proposal or who was behind it. That proposal appeared to be going to use a higher grade bus - more like a tram. They may have been talking of a BRT service.

jayobray

Bray Head wrote: »

They would work absolutely fine along the N11 terminating at SSG. Likewise in from Lucan terminating around Heuston.

These routes have no sharp turns and are more or less all bus lane.

You would have to adjust the lengths of the stops, have less of them, and use all of the doors of course. Something which is beyond the capacity of Dublin Bus to deliver.

But they would have to be turned to do the reverse journey, and that would be difficult, especially in the city centre.

Zebra3

Bambi wrote: »

The bendy buses had the same amount of access points as the other dublin buses..two.

And when the middle doors were not used (which will happen with the best will in the world) it was a nightmare pushing your way up from the back to use the front doors.

The ones in Zürich that I’m referring to had four.

bk

The advantage of BRT over double deckers are:

- Can carry more passengers then a double decker
- Quicker dwell times as people don't have to make their way upstairs.
- More of the space actually used, you don't get the situation where their are empty seats upstairs but people don't realise it.
- More space for people with mobility disabilities who can't get up a stairs
- Better security as less of the upstairs messing
- More space for wheelchairs and buggies

If you have used a well designed BRT anywhere in Europe then you know they are fantastic. Three to four doors, entry/exit through all doors, very low dwell times. Basically they are like the Luas but without the tracks.

No point in talking about the old bendy buses tried by Dublin Bus. It was typical Irish half arsed attempt, where it seems they did absolutely everything wrong and maybe that was the point, maybe they wanted it to fail from the start!

- Buy the bendy bus from a company with no experience in building them
- Only two doors and rear door almost never used
- Put them on routes not suited to them
- Don't update the bus stops or roads to support them.

Of course it was a disaster, this was faulty towers level of incompetency.

We certainly don't want this style of "bendy bus" back. But European style BRT, built by a company with a great track record in them, operated properly, along routes where it makes sense and with stops and road infrastructure upgraded to support them. Then they will be widely succesful.

BTW the VT class are the worst bus in the Dublin Bus fleet. Sure they can take the most people. But their single door and big size mean they have terrible dwell time when full and for passengers they are a nightmare to get in and out of.

If you want to see a really nice, well operated big double decker, then look at Berlin tri-axles. Three doors, two stairs, enter through the front door, up the front stairs, exit via the rear stairs and rear door. Middle door used by wheelchairs and buggies. Very sensible and logical.

Dyr

bk wrote: »

- Put them on routes not suited to them
- Don't update the bus stops or roads to support them.

Those are two great points on why bendy buses should be avoided like the plague, tail wagging dog stuff right there when you're redesigning everything else just to suit a piece of hardware

Carrying more people because there's more standing room isn't a selling point either, we should be trying to eliminate standing altogether to improve bus speeds

bk

Bambi wrote: »

Those are two great points on why bendy buses should be avoided like the plague, tail wagging dog stuff right there when you're redesigning everything else just to suit a piece of hardware

You mean like like adding tracks for Luas or digging tunnels for MN/DU or hell even making bus lanes for Dublin Bus!!

Bambi wrote: »

Carrying more people because there's more standing room isn't a selling point either, we should be trying to eliminate standing altogether to improve bus speeds

Another major failing in Dublin Bus thinking. Everyone needs a seat, since it will take forever to get home, due to horrible dwell time due to stairs and single door operations and terrible ticketing, along with wonderful mystery tours through every estate along the way.

Modern public transport is supposed to be fast and efficient. You don't need lots of seats if the journey is quick. People don't mind standing if it is a quick journey and it allows you to fit more people on a bus.

A modern speedy bus service along core routes into the city, with very low dwell times and no trips off into estates along the way and people will love it.

Dyr

bk wrote: »

A modern speedy bus service along core routes into the city, with very low dwell times and no trips off into estates along the way and people will love it.

Buses have reduced speed limits when there are standing passengers..standing=slow

Snowseer

Bambi wrote: »

So all we have to do is redesign the city for the sake of bendy buses, sounds reasonable

I'm trying to think of a single benefit those jalopys actually brought...nope nothing.

What a great word!

bk

Bambi wrote: »

Buses have reduced speed limits when there are standing passengers..standing=slow

80km/h

BTW when I said speedy, I meant compared to the very low average speed of Dublin Bus, just 17km/h!

No one is saying that they would be flying along at 120km/h

Stephen15

The only thing about getting bendy buses for Dublin that I don't think there is that many continental manufacturer making bendy buses in right hand drive given their low demand in the UK. It's a little bit like the whole Irish gauge thing with IE having to custom spec rolling costing more than off the shelve rolling stock.

I'm not sure if Citaro bendys are still made in right hand and any bendy bus Wright's have made have been rubbish. Although the Belfast BRT is using VanHool buses which look extremely ugly IMO and unsually the drivers cab is completely separated from the passengers. It will be interesting to see how the system in Belfast works.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

The only thing about getting bendy buses for Dublin that I don't think there is that many continental manufacturer making bendy buses in right hand drive given their low demand in the UK. It's a little bit like the whole Irish gauge thing with IE having to custom spec rolling costing more than off the shelve rolling stock.

I'm not sure if Citaro bendys are still made in right hand and any bendy bus Wright's have made have been rubbish.

Good point.

However VanHool, one of the best bus and coach manufacturers around are making a BRT for Belfast, based on their very well regarded Exqui.City range.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

Good point.

However VanHool, one of the best bus and coach manufacturers around are making a BRT for Belfast, based on their very well regarded Exqui.City range.

I wonder do these buses have an emergency talk to the driver button and speaker similar to the Luas. I also wonder will revenue protection work similar to the Luas with common checks and will security be required.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

I wonder do these buses have an emergency talk to the driver button and speaker similar to the Luas. I also wonder will revenue protection work similar to the Luas with common checks and will security be required.

I don't know, but going by the plans seen on swiftway, everything else seemed to look like the Luas. Luas style stops, Luas style ticket machines, etc. So I wouldn't be surprised if these were also similar.

devnull

bk wrote: »

However VanHool, one of the best bus and coach manufacturers around are making a BRT for Belfast, based on their very well regarded Exqui.City range.

The last time we saw something like that in the UK was the FTR by First in Swansea, York and Leeds - it was a complete disaster and the vast majority of the vehicles have sat out of use after far less than 6 years of service and are about to go to the scrapyard and First have had to list them as an impaired asset on their accounts since nobody within their bus operating division wants them and those which do use articulated vehicles would much rather user older conventional articulated vehicles which are more practical.

I'm not convinced it's going to be much different here. The problem with the FTR was it was more expensive to procure and more expensive to run because it was non standard which made parts more expensive when compared to traditional vehicles and problems with ticketing because the driver was separated completely from the passengers meant that conductors had to be hired as well massively increasing costs. The thing with the Citaro is it might not be the worlds cheapest bus but it's the top selling bus in Europe over the last decade so parts and support are readily and more cheaply available.

Stephen15 wrote: »

I'm not sure if Citaro bendys are still made in right hand and any bendy bus Wright's have made have been rubbish. Although the Belfast BRT is using VanHool buses which look extremely ugly IMO and unsually the drivers cab is completely separated from the passengers. It will be interesting to see how the system in Belfast works.

Still available - some were built for Bristol Airport in/2017.

See my comments above about the flaws with the ticketing system with the FTR.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

The last time we saw something like that in the UK was the FTR by First in Swansea, York and Leeds - it was a complete disaster and the vast majority of the vehicles have sat out of use after far less than 6 years of service and are about to go to the scrapyard and First have had to list them as an impaired asset on their accounts since nobody within their bus operating division wants them and those which do use articulated vehicles would much rather user older conventional articulated vehicles which are more practical.

I'm not convinced it's going to be much different here. The problem with the FTR was it was more expensive to procure and more expensive to run because it was non standard which made parts more expensive when compared to traditional vehicles and problems with ticketing because the driver was separated completely from the passengers meant that conductors had to be hired as well massively increasing costs. The thing with the Citaro is it might not be the worlds cheapest bus but it's the top selling bus in Europe over the last decade so parts and support are readily and more cheaply available.

In the prototypes I have seen for the Belfast BRT it seems all ticketing will be off board similar to the Luas with ticket machines and validators at the stops. So no need for a conductor but likely a need for ticket inspectors.

Your right though conventional bendy buses are probably better as long as parts are easier to get as long as there is no driver interaction. Have the drivers cab completely sealed off with no little holes to discourage passengers from speaking to him/her.

donvito99

Ashbx wrote: »

Bendy buses take up twice the space on roads and carry same amount of passengers as double deckers so I think they should be got rid of.

There are articulated buses that carry upwards of 200 passengers in normal passenger operation on the continent.

Your bog standard articulated bus carries in the region of 50% more passengers than the bog standard AV in Dublin.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

In the prototypes I have seen for the Belfast BRT it seems all ticketing will be off board similar to the Luas with ticket machines and validators at the stops. So no need for a conductor but likely a need for ticket inspectors.

Originally there was supposed to be ticket machines on the FTR and there was for a very short while but there were problems with both the practicalities of them and also the issue with fare evasion - there was some consideration to install at stop machines but it never happened.

I hope it works and they don't make the same mistakes that First made with the FTR since those were one of the biggest white elephants in UK bus history and nobody wanted them once they were withdrawn from service.

What will be key to this will be maintenance and reliability of the ticket machines, good revenue protection, the durability of the vehicles and the amount of and cost of the required maintenance.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

Originally there was supposed to be ticket machines on the FTR and there was for a very short while but there were problems with both the practicalities of them and also the issue with fare evasion - there was some consideration to install at stop machines but it never happened.

I hope it works and they don't make the same mistakes that First made with the FTR since those were one of the biggest white elephants in UK bus history and nobody wanted them once they were withdrawn from service.

What will be key to this will be maintenance and reliability of the ticket machines, good revenue protection, the durability of the vehicles and the amount of and cost of the required maintenance.

According to this article the tickets machines were on board rather at the stop and hard to use aswell as being exact change only rather than accepting notes and cards aswell as giving change. This was controversial to UK passengers as most bus services there still give change.

http://publictransportexperience.blogspot.ie/2011/11/ftrs-bright-ftrs-purple-1.html

I could see such a system being successful if they have Luas style ticket machines. London's bendy buses also used to have off board ticket machines which were similar and like parking meters rather standard public transport tvms.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

According to this article the tickets machines were on board rather at the stop and hard to use aswell as being exact change only rather than accepting notes and cards aswell as giving change. This was controversial to UK passengers as most bus services there still give change.

I stated in my original post that they were having the machines on-board at the start but they didn't last long, there was a proposal for on street machines but you have to remember this was approx 10 years ago now and technology was very different then to what it is now.

I could see such a system being successful if they have Luas style ticket machines. London's bendy buses also used to have off board ticket machines which were similar and like parking meters rather standard public transport tvms.

Everything will depend on the ticketing system and the reliability of it, how well revenue protection is carried out and the cost of running the vehicles, reliability and maintenance. If Translink were very sensible then you'd hope that they have worked some kind of maintenance contract into the package for the new vehicles so they don't get burnt later on.