Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

salmocab

I’d imagine it is a very hard sell, somebody living in say Dublin is going to have a limited knowledge of what Belfast is like, it historically wouldn’t have been a place that any ROI Catholic lad would have been comfortable going up to (I’m assuming most of the players are) added to that the club has hardly been top of the pops lately I could certainly see why people weren’t keen.

mfceiling

My point was that posters here were saying that Ulster should be asking for x, y and z to move north and that they were making no effort to encourage these players. I made the point that maybe Ulster had asked players to move and they said no.
Jack Conan...no thanks.
Ian Keatley...no thanks.
Joey Carberry...no thanks.
Tyler B...no thanks.
God knows who else was approached and said no.

With brexit, the negativity still perceived by some about the north, the weakness of sterling and the clusterfùck surrounding the club it's likely that quite a few players would be non plussed about going to Ulster.

mfceiling

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Like Carbery. How hard did Ulster try to persuade him.

What do you reckon?

Please come to Ulster. No.
Please. No.
Ah come on. No
We'll give you a load of money. No.
We've great facilities. No.
Belfast is buzzing. No.
Ah come on. No.
Please. No.
We won the HC in 99. No.
Please. No.
Well make you 1st choice. No.
Nucifora said you had to. No.

I've been offered loads of work in Belfast in the last 2 years. One in particular offered me more money, a diesel card and pay my phone bill and put me up in a house near the job. I said no. My family and friends are in dublin so I've no interest in going back north.

bilston

mfceiling wrote: »

My point was that posters here were saying that Ulster should be asking for x, y and z to move north and that they were making no effort to encourage these players. I made the point that maybe Ulster had asked players to move and they said no.
Jack Conan...no thanks.
Ian Keatley...no thanks.
Joey Carberry...no thanks.
Tyler B...no thanks.
God knows who else was approached and said no.

With brexit, the negativity still perceived by some about the north, the weakness of sterling and the clusterfùck surrounding the club it's likely that quite a few players would be non plussed about going to Ulster.

If Boards is anything to go by (And I mean Boards in general not the Rugby forum) there is quite a significant negativity towards Northern Ireland from down south. It is probably because of our politicians as much as anything but it is something I have noticed on this MB (again general MB).

But again keyboard warriors may not be reflective of society as a whole.

Former Former

That is the first time I've seen anyone put Bleyendaal and Ulster in the same sentence but suddenly he refused to go and this is a commentary on Ulster, Brexit and whatever else?

We don't know if Conan refused to go, we don't know anything about Keatley either.

We do know that next season Ulster will have four capped Irish internationals who started out elsewhere. They'll have a few more fringe players of the same ilk. A former Connacht player and coach will be in charge.

But we're still convinced there's a mass cultural refusal to go?

Chin up lads. It's really not that bad

Paul Smeenus

In fairness, if you started following Ulster this season, I could understand your confusion. Go back three seasons. That's when young players who weren't really getting a sniff in Leinster started coming up. There were certainly no Irish internationals from any of the other provinces in the Ulster team. And hadn't been for many years. We had no equivalent of Felix Jones at the time, no equivalent of Sean Cronin. I'm not sure who, before Cooney, would have been the most recent Irish capped player to move from another province to Ulster. Anyone any ideas?

awec

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

In fairness, if you started following Ulster this season, I could understand your confusion. Go back three seasons. That's when young players who weren't really getting a sniff in Leinster started coming up. There were certainly no Irish internationals from any of the other provinces in the Ulster team. And hadn't been for many years. We had no equivalent of Felix Jones at the time, no equivalent of Sean Cronin. I'm not sure who, before Cooney, would have been the most recent Irish capped player to move from another province to Ulster. Anyone any ideas?

Ah You.

Paul Smeenus

Ha ha ha ha well that's sucked the wind out of my sails. Thought Ah You was the same time as Cooney. You know I'm right, though Awec. You know it.

awec

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Ha ha ha ha well that's sucked the wind out of my sails. Thought Ah You was the same time as Cooney. You know I'm right, though Awec. You know it.

Yea you're right.


Before Ah You you will struggle to find a name, but Ah You never got anything more than a token cap or two. To describe him as an international player is pushing it a bit.

jacothelad

Former Former wrote: »

Apart from Carbery, who do we know has been approached and refused?

Who do we know that hasn't?

Paul Smeenus

Not really. I don't think everyone is against us. I think McFarland is a very talented IRFU appointee who has been marked for a role in the bigger Irish scheme, and I am delighted that he is coming here. I think the IRFU wanted Carbery to come here as a means of killing two birds with one stone. His interests and ours. 

However I have been an Ulster fan since the nineties. If you want to point to the many players from other provinces that have come up to Ulster prior to the last three or four years, I await it with excitement. Otherwise, I'll take your "I give up" at face value and expect to hear no more about it.

And don't worry about McFarland. He's forgotten more about rugby than you've ever known and has given up a position in a rising international set up to come here. I'd say he knows what he's doing.

THERE IS ULSTER MAGIC JUST AROUND THE CORNER, MEXICAN BROTHERS!!

Paul Smeenus

Did Former Former delete his moany post?

Dubinusa

I am from Dublin, grew up there until I left in 85. I've been to Belfast 3 times these past 6 years and I would no problem moving there.
The city is very nice and small enough that getting around is fairly easy. I've got friends there and growing up all I knew about Belfast was from the news. It's changed and is very welcoming imo.

The Lost Sheep

Dubinusa wrote: »

I am from Dublin, grew up there until I left in 85. I've been to Belfast 3 times these past 6 years and I would no problem moving there.
The city is very nice and small enough that getting around is fairly easy. I've got friends there and growing up all I knew about Belfast was from the news. It's changed and is very welcoming imo.

Jeez thats very naive. If it was all like that and so easy then why havent so many more not moved to join Ulster when offered over the years??

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Not really. I don't think everyone is against us. I think McFarland is a very talented IRFU appointee who has been marked for a role in the bigger Irish scheme, and I am delighted that he is coming here. I think the IRFU wanted Carbery to come here as a means of killing two birds with one stone. His interests and ours. 

However I have been an Ulster fan since the nineties. If you want to point to the many players from other provinces that have come up to Ulster prior to the last three or four years, I await it with excitement. Otherwise, I'll take your "I give up" at face value and expect to hear no more about it.

And don't worry about McFarland. He's forgotten more about rugby than you've ever known and has given up a position in a rising international set up to come here. I'd say he knows what he's doing.

THERE IS ULSTER MAGIC JUST AROUND THE CORNER, MEXICAN BROTHERS!!

....:pac: :pac: McFarland is far from just an IRFU appointee. Carbury moving to Ulster would have been killing 2 birds with 1 stone but the ****storm largely self inflicted would have stopped anyone joining them.

damianmcr

Did you mean to post that on Tripadvisor?

mfceiling

jacothelad wrote: »

Who do we know that hasn't?

That's the problem right there.
We've had loads of comments that Ulster haven't been arsed trying to persuade players to move north. I reckoned we had and they refused. Then the bar was moved to "well I'm sure ulster still haven't tried hard enough because the few that have moved must have been happy to do so, so why hasn't everyone else".
Cooney, Timoney, Moore and Jordi have signed and that's great. Carberry wasn't interested. I'll bet a good few others were asked and politely refused.

Dubinusa

It's most likely that the Leinster players enjoy the winning atmosphere at the rds. Most fellas will leave a team for more playing time/ opportunity elsewhere. I.E Jordi, Felix Jones, Conway and Copeland. Not everyone wants to uproot and leave their comfort zone. That said, some outhalves in Munster will probably be looking to move on soon. 5 into 2 doesn't really work. So, 1 or more may leave, maybe Keatley back to Galway.
Who knows what the motivations are? Maybe some don't like Belfast but, if I was going to be in a position to leave, I think Belfast would be fine.
Of course, financial benefits of France or England would also be a factor.
Ulster have attracted overseas players from the southern hemisphere without any problems? They also have 2 Leinster boys in the academy and several players from Leinster and Connact in the senior squad. Losing Farrell and Arnold is not good, but who'd have thought the backs would be in the situation their in now. I forgot about Scholes also.
I think some players will make the move north of the coaching situation was stable and they had a chance to make the squad. Marty Moore is probably thinking he's got a real shot at th. He knows he'd struggle to get past Porter and Furlong at Leinster and Archer and Ryan at Munster. He sees Ulster as his best option.
It's not all doom and gloom. A stable coaching team and some new blood will help attract Mexicans. Chins up boyos

jacothelad

Dubinusa wrote: »

It's most likely that the Leinster players enjoy the winning atmosphere at the rds. Most fellas will leave a team for more playing time/ opportunity elsewhere. I.E Jordi, Felix Jones, Conway and Copeland. Not everyone wants to uproot and leave their comfort zone. That said, some outhalves in Munster will probably be looking to move on soon. 5 into 2 doesn't really work. So, 1 or more may leave, maybe Keatley back to Galway.
Who knows what the motivations are? Maybe some don't like Belfast but, if I was going to be in a position to leave, I think Belfast would be fine.
Of course, financial benefits of France or England would also be a factor.
Ulster have attracted overseas players from the southern hemisphere without any problems? They also have 2 Leinster boys in the academy and several players from Leinster and Connact in the senior squad. Losing Farrell and Arnold is not good, but who'd have thought the backs would be in the situation their in now. I forgot about Scholes also.
I think some players will make the move north of the coaching situation was stable and they had a chance to make the squad. Marty Moore is probably thinking he's got a real shot at th. He knows he'd struggle to get past Porter and Furlong at Leinster and Archer and Ryan at Munster. He sees Ulster as his best option.
It's not all doom and gloom. A stable coaching team and some new blood will help attract Mexicans. Chins up boyos

A lot of common sense there. My view is this. There are a whole complex of interacting factors which have led to a decline in rugby in N.I. I have been pointing this out for years.



The rugby playing community in N.I. was based around a smallish number of State controlled but semi-private Grammar schools. Those equivalents controlled by the Catholic Church did not play rugby at all but of course played GAA and Soccer. Other state secondary level schools played soccer and were usually far too small in enrolled numbers to be able to play rugby even if the desire was there which was rare. Only Belfast Boys Model School ever got to a final afaik. Many of the Grammars were - but no longer are - fee paying which has been virtually outlawed.. This change has basically turned schools like M.C.B. - my old school - and 'Inst.'into glorified state secondary schools. Bear in mind that those Grammar Schools were basically attended by people from all across the various sectors of society as they had stellar academic reputations. Despite it's name and origins in the Methodist Church - like it's twin Wesley College, Methodist College enrolled - and still does -Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc Pupils who would have boarded from across Ireland, G.B. and Asia now go to private schools in Scotland and England. Not huge in number but significant enough but also even more significant is the change in ethos of those few remaining schools that play.



Many others have closed down as demographics have changed. Some have amalgamated and become co-ed and lost their identity. Others have shrunk in pupil numbers to such an extent that they can now longer safely put out teams to compete with bigger schools. There has been a significant degree of emigration over the last 35 years to G.B. from the Unionist community. This has further reduced playing numbers. Many of my contemporaries' children now live in G.B. and their children will never return. My own children included.



There has been a fixation on Grammar School rugby in the running of the game in Ulster as it is run by those who went through the system. There has been little evidence of any significant evolution in this as things have changed and playing numbers have diminished. Heads in the sand. If you didn't attend one of the 'rugby schools' you had little chance of being considered as a candidate for the Academy. The non-Schools Cup players are largely ignored, rarely seen, rarely looked at, rarely given any opportunities. Some lip service is occasionally paid to club players but it is usually just that and no more. There are many coaches around N.I. who have tried to break this cycle but to no avail. A number of them - in frustration - wrote to Logan about their experiences and with suggestions that at least could be considered in order to bring some sense of inclusiveness into non-schools rugby. A total waste of time.

mfceiling

jacothelad wrote: »

A lot of common sense there. My view is this. There are a whole complex of interacting factors which have led to a decline in rugby in N.I. I have been pointing this out for years.



The rugby playing community in N.I. was based around a smallish number of State controlled but semi-private Grammar schools. Those equivalents controlled by the Catholic Church did not play rugby at all but of course played GAA and Soccer. Other state secondary level schools played soccer and were usually far too small in enrolled numbers to be able to play rugby even if the desire was there which was rare. Only Belfast Boys Model School ever got to a final afaik. Many of the Grammars were - but no longer are - fee paying which has been virtually outlawed.. This change has basically turned schools like M.C.B. - my old school - and 'Inst.'into glorified state secondary schools. Bear in mind that those Grammar Schools were basically attended by people from all across the various sectors of society as they had stellar academic reputations. Despite it's name and origins in the Methodist Church - like it's twin Wesley College, Methodist College enrolled - and still does -Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc Pupils who would have boarded from across Ireland, G.B. and Asia now go to private schools in Scotland and England. Not huge in number but significant enough but also even more significant is the change in ethos of those few remaining schools that play.



Many others have closed down as demographics have changed. Some have amalgamated and become co-ed and lost their identity. Others have shrunk in pupil numbers to such an extent that they can now longer safely put out teams to compete with bigger schools. There has been a significant degree of emigration over the last 35 years to G.B. from the Unionist community. This has further reduced playing numbers. Many of my contemporaries' children now live in G.B. and their children will never return. My own children included.



There has been a fixation on Grammar School rugby in the running of the game in Ulster as it is run by those who went through the system. There has been little evidence of any significant evolution in this as things have changed and playing numbers have diminished. Heads in the sand. If you didn't attend one of the 'rugby schools' you had little chance of being considered as a candidate for the Academy. The non-Schools Cup players are largely ignored, rarely seen, rarely looked at, rarely given any opportunities. Some lip service is occasionally paid to club players but it is usually just that and no more. There are many coaches around N.I. who have tried to break this cycle but to no avail. A number of them - in frustration - wrote to Logan about their experiences and with suggestions that at least could be considered in order to bring some sense of inclusiveness into non-schools rugby. A total waste of time.

Cheers Jaco. Best post I've read on the shìt show that is ulster rugby in a long time.

Dubinusa

Good info , really lousy outlook. Hope they can get it together and thrive.

bilston

jacothelad wrote: »

Dubinusa wrote: »

It's most likely that the Leinster players enjoy the winning atmosphere at the rds. Most fellas will leave a team for more playing time/ opportunity elsewhere. I.E Jordi, Felix Jones, Conway and Copeland. Not everyone wants to uproot and leave their comfort zone. That said, some outhalves in Munster will probably be looking to move on soon. 5 into 2 doesn't really work. So, 1 or more may leave, maybe Keatley back to Galway.
Who knows what the motivations are? Maybe some don't like Belfast but, if I was going to be in a position to leave, I think Belfast would be fine.
Of course, financial benefits of France or England would also be a factor.
Ulster have attracted overseas players from the southern hemisphere without any problems? They also have 2 Leinster boys in the academy and several players from Leinster and Connact in the senior squad. Losing Farrell and Arnold is not good, but who'd have thought the backs would be in the situation their in now. I forgot about Scholes also.
I think some players will make the move north of the coaching situation was stable and they had a chance to make the squad. Marty Moore is probably thinking he's got a real shot at th. He knows he'd struggle to get past Porter and Furlong at Leinster and Archer and Ryan at Munster. He sees Ulster as his best option.
It's not all doom and gloom. A stable coaching team and some new blood will help attract Mexicans. Chins up boyos

A lot of common sense there. My view is this. There are a whole complex of interacting factors which have led to a decline in rugby in N.I. I have been pointing this out for years.



The rugby playing community in N.I. was based around a smallish number of State controlled but semi-private Grammar schools. Those equivalents controlled by the Catholic Church did not play rugby at all but of course played GAA and Soccer. Other state secondary level schools played soccer and were usually far too small in enrolled numbers to be able to play rugby even if the desire was there which was rare. Only Belfast Boys Model School ever got to a final afaik. Many of the Grammars were - but no longer are - fee paying which has been virtually outlawed.. This change has basically turned schools like M.C.B. - my old school - and 'Inst.'into glorified state secondary schools. Bear in mind that those Grammar Schools were basically attended by people from all across the various sectors of society as they had stellar academic reputations. Despite it's name and origins in the Methodist Church - like it's twin Wesley College, Methodist College enrolled - and still does -Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc Pupils who would have boarded from across Ireland, G.B. and Asia now go to private schools in Scotland and England. Not huge in number but significant enough but also even more significant is the change in ethos of those few remaining schools that play.



Many others have closed down as demographics have changed. Some have amalgamated and become co-ed and lost their identity. Others have shrunk in pupil numbers to such an extent that they can now longer safely put out teams to compete with bigger schools. There has been a significant degree of emigration over the last 35 years to G.B. from the Unionist community. This has further reduced playing numbers. Many of my contemporaries' children now live in G.B. and their children will never return. My own children included.



There has been a fixation on Grammar School rugby in the running of the game in Ulster as it is run by those who went through the system. There has been little evidence of any significant evolution in this as things have changed and playing numbers have diminished. Heads in the sand. If you didn't attend one of the 'rugby schools' you had little chance of being considered as a candidate for the Academy. The non-Schools Cup players are largely ignored, rarely seen, rarely looked at, rarely given any opportunities. Some lip service is occasionally paid to club players but it is usually just that and no more. There are many coaches around N.I. who have tried to break this cycle but to no avail. A number of them - in frustration - wrote to Logan about their experiences and with suggestions that at least could be considered in order to bring some sense of inclusiveness into non-schools rugby. A total waste of time.

There needs to be a big improvement in the standard of coaching at club level. Schools players get a big headstart for that very reason. It doesn't mean focusing less on the Schools, it just means putting additional funding into the club game...but that means relying on volunteers to give up their time to coach and that is easier said than done.

Regards the player drain to GB, yes it's true a lot of talent is lost, but most of the top level talent is retained thanks to the Academy. It's the level below that where the problem lies. That isn't a rugby problem, that's about making Northern Ireland an attractive to place to study and work. Rugby's fortunes are outside it's own control in that respect. That said Munster and Connacht presumably face a similar problem. I'm sure they lose a lot of talent to the Dublin clubs?

The Lost Sheep

bilston wrote: »

There needs to be a big improvement in the standard of coaching at club level. Schools players get a big headstart for that very reason. It doesn't mean focusing less on the Schools, it just means putting additional funding into the club game...but that means relying on volunteers to give up their time to coach and that is easier said than done.

Regards the player drain to GB, yes it's true a lot of talent is lost, but most of the top level talent is retained thanks to the Academy. It's the level below that where the problem lies. That isn't a rugby problem, that's about making Northern Ireland an attractive to place to study and work. Rugby's fortunes are outside it's own control in that respect. That said Munster and Connacht presumably face a similar problem. I'm sure they lose a lot of talent to the Dublin clubs?

The improvements in coaching at club(youths) level has to come from multiple areas. The provincial professional staff - development officers be they club community, community officers etc - need to be doing more/better work within all kinds of schools to get kids interested in playing and getting them into clubs and then the coaches within clubs need to be improved through better assessment and coaching courses etc.
Relying on volunteers can be and is difficult but the work/training provided for the volunteers who are in place can be better.
The player drain to GB the top talent being retained hasnt ever really been the issue its the sub academy level. Munster and Connacht dont really have a similar problem as while they can lose players to Dublin colleges and clubs the players can join those academies. While quite a few from the North do attend trinity not many attend colleges down here other than there. very difficult to change that though

launish116

Pre-season begins tomorrow, so far:

• head coach's arrival unknown
• new CEO unknown
• new head of S&C unknown
• head of Physio unknown
• bare bones of a squad, with several backline injuries from another season ruined

2018/19 season starts here, looking great so far. have i missed anything? Rant over!

sydthebeat

launish116 wrote: »

Pre-season begins tomorrow, so far:

• head coach's arrival unknown
• new CEO unknown
• new head of S&C unknown
• head of Physio unknown
• bare bones of a squad, with several backline injuries from another season ruined

2018/19 season starts here, looking great so far. have i missed anything? Rant over!

Ethel still brewing a mean cuppa?

prawnsambo

sydthebeat wrote: »

Ethel still brewing a mean cuppa?

I heard a rumour that Ethel was moving to Munster. The Barry's Tea was the final clincher. Ian Keatley was supposed to be included in the deal, but he decided to stay for the same reason.

stephen_n

launish116 wrote: »

Pre-season begins tomorrow, so far:

• head coach's arrival unknown
• new CEO unknown
• new head of S&C unknown
• head of Physio unknown
• bare bones of a squad, with several backline injuries from another season ruined

2018/19 season starts here, looking great so far. have i missed anything? Rant over!

New CEO? Did I miss something or is that wishful thinking?

CIARAN_BOYLE

stephen_n wrote: »

New CEO? Did I miss something or is that wishful thinking?

you missed something

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro14/shane-logan-to-step-down-as-ulster-rugby-ceo-1.3524072%3fmode=amp

molloyjh

jacothelad wrote: »

A lot of common sense there. My view is this. There are a whole complex of interacting factors which have led to a decline in rugby in N.I. I have been pointing this out for years.



The rugby playing community in N.I. was based around a smallish number of State controlled but semi-private Grammar schools. Those equivalents controlled by the Catholic Church did not play rugby at all but of course played GAA and Soccer. Other state secondary level schools played soccer and were usually far too small in enrolled numbers to be able to play rugby even if the desire was there which was rare. Only Belfast Boys Model School ever got to a final afaik. Many of the Grammars were - but no longer are - fee paying which has been virtually outlawed.. This change has basically turned schools like M.C.B. - my old school - and 'Inst.'into glorified state secondary schools. Bear in mind that those Grammar Schools were basically attended by people from all across the various sectors of society as they had stellar academic reputations. Despite it's name and origins in the Methodist Church - like it's twin Wesley College, Methodist College enrolled - and still does -Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc Pupils who would have boarded from across Ireland, G.B. and Asia now go to private schools in Scotland and England. Not huge in number but significant enough but also even more significant is the change in ethos of those few remaining schools that play.



Many others have closed down as demographics have changed. Some have amalgamated and become co-ed and lost their identity. Others have shrunk in pupil numbers to such an extent that they can now longer safely put out teams to compete with bigger schools. There has been a significant degree of emigration over the last 35 years to G.B. from the Unionist community. This has further reduced playing numbers. Many of my contemporaries' children now live in G.B. and their children will never return. My own children included.



There has been a fixation on Grammar School rugby in the running of the game in Ulster as it is run by those who went through the system. There has been little evidence of any significant evolution in this as things have changed and playing numbers have diminished. Heads in the sand. If you didn't attend one of the 'rugby schools' you had little chance of being considered as a candidate for the Academy. The non-Schools Cup players are largely ignored, rarely seen, rarely looked at, rarely given any opportunities. Some lip service is occasionally paid to club players but it is usually just that and no more. There are many coaches around N.I. who have tried to break this cycle but to no avail. A number of them - in frustration - wrote to Logan about their experiences and with suggestions that at least could be considered in order to bring some sense of inclusiveness into non-schools rugby. A total waste of time.

Excellent post jaco. That last paragraph reminded me of an Ulster family I met after one of the games in November. Their son, about 18/19, was down but wasn't drinking (the rest made up for him ) and we got chatting to them. Tuns out the son plays club rugby up North and takes it very seriously. But he reckons he doesn't stand a chance of getting a look in with the Academy because of where he plays and who he doesn't know. It's always hard to know whether stories like that are genuine or whether there's an element of hyperbole to them, but these guys seemed very genuine. It's interesting to see the above in that light. This family sounded like they'd given up on the idea of their son kicking on, which was quite sad I thought.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

Excellent post jaco. That last paragraph reminded me of an Ulster family I met after one of the games in November. Their son, about 18/19, was down but wasn't drinking (the rest made up for him ) and we got chatting to them. Tuns out the son plays club rugby up North and takes it very seriously. But he reckons he doesn't stand a chance of getting a look in with the Academy because of where he plays and who he doesn't know. It's always hard to know whether stories like that are genuine or whether there's an element of hyperbole to them, but these guys seemed very genuine. It's interesting to see the above in that light. This family sounded like they'd given up on the idea of their son kicking on, which was quite sad I thought.

Think that lad was from Ballykelly, just outside limavady. Not sure Ulster rugby could point to it on a map.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Think that lad was from Ballykelly, just outside limavady. Not sure Ulster rugby could point to it on a map.

I know I couldn't anyway.