Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

awec · 21-06-2018 01:32PM

Kiss' career trajectory is Ireland -> Ulster -> London Irish.

Backwards.

21-06-2018 01:34PM

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Venjur - you realise you have two posts above, one after the other, in one dismissing what Nucifora said because it suits you, in the other taking what he said as gospel, because it suits you? I just point it out because the optics of the two posts next to each other is amusing.

Anyway, excited about McFarland, would very happily take Farrell in the meantime if we have to. We'll win nothing, but am excited for next season.

I'm not sure if you meant this in jest or you disagree with what I wrote, but just to try and understand your use of the phrase 'to suit me', I don't know what you mean by this. I've no skin in the game at all, I've pointed out plenty of times that I don't know what is going on behind the scenes and I'm just speculating based on what I think is most likely. I fully expect people to be verbalising half truths and miss-direction some of the time and to be candid other times, that's not uncommon at all. I'm not calling anything gospel, far from it.

What would suit me best is Ulster becoming a competitive silverware winning team. I presume that would suit you as well, no?

irishbucsfan · 21-06-2018 01:36PM

awec wrote: »

Kiss' career trajectory is Ireland -> Ulster -> London Irish.

Backwards.

Oh yeah of course! His first job was Ireland!

Lancaster's career trajectory was:

England -> Leinster

Must be terrible.

awec · 21-06-2018 01:38PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Oh yeah of course! His first job was Ireland!

Lancaster's career trajectory was:

England -> Leinster

Must be terrible.

Huh?

Who said his first job was Ireland?

21-06-2018 01:39PM

awec wrote: »

Kiss' career trajectory is Ireland -> Ulster -> London Irish.

Backwards.

I don't consider going from an assistant national coach to a provincial head coach a step down personally. Wouldn't consider it a promotion necessarily, I'd probably say it was a lateral move.

I don't know what sort of a coach he is, but his confidence visibly fell apart at the end of the season so I'd be very hesitant putting him in a top job again personally. He may also be a poor coach, time will tell I guess.

irishbucsfan · 21-06-2018 01:41PM

awec wrote: »

Huh?

Who said his first job was Ireland?

You just conveniently started at the pinnacle of his career and then covered 2 seasons, he's been coaching for nearly twenty years!

At the moment Eddie Jones has gone:

Suntory -> Japan -> England

He must be incredible! As long as we start at the end and ignore his multiple failures!

molloyjh · 21-06-2018 01:55PM

MJohnston wrote: »

I'll be curious to see how Kiss gets on at London Irish, as I'm still dubious about whether he was an actually bad coach or something else was going on.

Sometimes these things are just a case of bad fit or bad timing. Good coaches can have bad experiences, personality clashes, cultural differences that they can't overcome etc. Kiss is a world class defence coach. He has proven that over a longer period and at a higher level than his time with Ulster. But whether he's a good head coach remains to be seen.

molloyjh · 21-06-2018 01:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't consider going from an assistant national coach to a provincial head coach a step down personally. Wouldn't consider it a promotion necessarily, I'd probably say it was a lateral move.

I don't know what sort of a coach he is, but his confidence visibly fell apart at the end of the season so I'd be very hesitant putting him in a top job again personally. He may also be a poor coach, time will tell I guess.

I can totally understand why a coach would want to go from a national assistant to a provincial head coach (DoR in this case). It's a complete nonsense to say he went from Ireland to Ulster and that this move was a step back. It was a step forward in his career. It's gas how people are willing to frame things in ways to suit their agenda.

MJohnston · 21-06-2018 02:17PM

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Yeah, he was a bad coach.

Not sure I agree, I think Ulster has brought a lot of good talent down, but let's wait and see.

Former Former · 21-06-2018 02:20PM

I think it's very possible that Kiss is a good coach who was a bad fit for Ulster. It happens.

e.g. Declan Kidney was an unmitigated disaster at Leinster - and then won two Heineken Cups and a Grand Slam in the next four years.

errlloyd · 21-06-2018 02:44PM

Former Former wrote: »

e.g. Declan Kidney was an unmitigated disaster at Leinster - and then won two Heineken Cups and a Grand Slam in the next four years.

Same way Matt O Connor was a bad fit at Leinster.

And the Reds

And at the Leicster Tigers.

bilston · 21-06-2018 03:49PM

MJohnston wrote: »

I'll be curious to see how Kiss gets on at London Irish, as I'm still dubious about whether he was an actually bad coach or something else was going on.

Well that many coaches have tried and "failed" at Ulster that at some point someone has got to have the balls to say "maybe it ain't the coaches fault"

awec · 21-06-2018 04:04PM

bilston wrote: »

Well that many coaches have tried and "failed" at Ulster that at some point someone has got to have the balls to say "maybe it ain't the coaches fault"

Few like Kiss though. We got progressively worse under his spell. At least previous coaches had some high points, Kiss had none.

McCall is probably the only one to prove Ulster wrong.

Paul Smeenus · 21-06-2018 04:33PM

bilston wrote: »

MJohnston wrote: »

I'll be curious to see how Kiss gets on at London Irish, as I'm still dubious about whether he was an actually bad coach or something else was going on.

Well that many coaches have tried and "failed" at Ulster that at some point someone has got to have the balls to say "maybe it ain't the coaches fault"

McLaughlin didn't fail. We made an HEC final. We just got rid of him anyway. Anscombe didn't fail. We made a Pro12 final. He had to go because of off-field issues.

Whatever people's understandable and reasonable concerns about Ulster, under Kiss we had our worst results in years. We had better results when Doak and Clarke were screaming at, and undermining, each other.

Paul Smeenus · 21-06-2018 04:38PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Venjur - you realise you have two posts above, one after the other, in one dismissing what Nucifora said because it suits you, in the other taking what he said as gospel, because it suits you? I just point it out because the optics of the two posts next to each other is amusing.

Anyway, excited about McFarland, would very happily take Farrell in the meantime if we have to. We'll win nothing, but am excited for next season.

I'm not sure if you meant this in jest or you disagree with what I wrote, but just to try and understand your use of the phrase 'to suit me', I don't know what you mean by this. I've no skin in the game at all, I've pointed out plenty of times that I don't know what is going on behind the scenes and I'm just speculating based on what I think is most likely. I fully expect people to be verbalising half truths and miss-direction some of the time and to be candid other times, that's not uncommon at all. I'm not calling anything gospel, far from it.

What would suit me best is Ulster becoming a competitive silverware winning team. I presume that would suit you as well, no?

Absolutely, brah. Just wondering how you know which of Nucifora's claims to believe, and which to disbelieve. Not a big issue.

21-06-2018 04:53PM

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Absolutely, brah. Just wondering how you know which of Nucifora's claims to believe, and which to disbelieve. Not a big issue.

Yeah I don't at all, but from a logic point of view if the three lads weren't asked that's a pretty glaring lie from Nucifora about several individuals who could potentially call bull**** given the first opportunity.

On the other hand, if the SRU are looking for a payout - they may choose not to be vocal about that, and Nucifora might not want to discuss that either and as two commercial entities as opposed to individuals it's easier to be liberal with the truth.

As I've said from the outset, speculation based on what I think is likely not based on anything I know to be fact.

Paul Smeenus · 21-06-2018 05:10PM

Do you think anyone who wants to play for Ireland is going to call out Nucifora? Not that I think he's spoofing - I just think you can make logical arguments to believe or disbelieve anything

Anywaaaaaaay, as I say, if McFarland can't arrive for the start of the season I'd be delighted with Farrell. If he bothers his hole turning up this time. His non-appearance after the Six Nations didn't go unnoticed.

mfceiling · 21-06-2018 05:32PM

I remember ulster getting hammered on here for not developing players and for their lack of vision into encouraging players from other provinces to move there.
I made the point that "maybe" a lot of other provincial platers didn't necessarily want to move north and that Ulster couldn't really be blamed for that. NO...ulster aren't trying hard enough blah blah blah.

Turns out that maybe quite a few provincial players have been approached and they've all said the same thing. No thanks.

irishbucsfan · 21-06-2018 05:42PM

Farrell certainly bothers his hole and shows up, when he's asked. Been down at Munster twice for extended periods.

Paul Smeenus · 21-06-2018 05:46PM

But not to Ulster, despite the IRFU announcing he was coming up to help out after the Six Natuons. I'm clearly being facetious, but he didn't come up. I'm delighted he's been to Munster twice, obvs.

irishbucsfan · 21-06-2018 05:56PM

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

But not to Ulster, despite the IRFU announcing he was coming up to help out after the Six Natuons. I'm clearly being facetious, but he didn't come up. I'm delighted he's been to Munster twice, obvs.

He's definitely been up to Ulster.

I don't believe he was ever supposed to come up for any extended period of time.

Didn't they appoint Jared Payne? Sounds like Ulstese Whispers.

Burkie1203 · 22-06-2018 09:12AM

mfceiling wrote: »

I remember ulster getting hammered on here for not developing players and for their lack of vision into encouraging players from other provinces to move there.
I made the point that "maybe" a lot of other provincial platers didn't necessarily want to move north and that Ulster couldn't really be blamed for that. NO...ulster aren't trying hard enough blah blah blah.

Turns out that maybe quite a few provincial players have been approached and they've all said the same thing. No thanks.

Cooney & Jordi said yes. Players making personal choices.

Like Carbery. How hard did Ulster try to persuade him. By all accounts JVG made a big effort to coax Carbery south.

stephen_n · 22-06-2018 12:27PM

awec wrote: »

Will he be here for pre-season? Current signs suggest not. Amateur nonsense, even worse considering we've been down this road before and it didn't work.

If God almighty was the new coach it wouldn’t make much difference if he was here for pre-season. It will take more than one season to fix Ulster, no matter who is coaching.

stephen_n · 22-06-2018 12:30PM

mfceiling wrote: »

I remember ulster getting hammered on here for not developing players and for their lack of vision into encouraging players from other provinces to move there.
I made the point that "maybe" a lot of other provincial platers didn't necessarily want to move north and that Ulster couldn't really be blamed for that. NO...ulster aren't trying hard enough blah blah blah.

Turns out that maybe quite a few provincial players have been approached and they've all said the same thing. No thanks.

Well Ulster now compared to even 12 months ago would be a far less attractive prospect. A decimated squad, uncertain coaching setup, are not things likely to attract ambitious players.

Former Former · 22-06-2018 12:36PM

mfceiling wrote: »

I remember ulster getting hammered on here for not developing players and for their lack of vision into encouraging players from other provinces to move there.
I made the point that "maybe" a lot of other provincial platers didn't necessarily want to move north and that Ulster couldn't really be blamed for that. NO...ulster aren't trying hard enough blah blah blah.

Turns out that maybe quite a few provincial players have been approached and they've all said the same thing. No thanks.

Apart from Carbery, who do we know has been approached and refused?

Buer · 22-06-2018 12:56PM

Former Former wrote: »

Apart from Carbery, who do we know has been approached and refused?

Pretty sure Jack Conan said he was offered a move there before his last contract and turned it down.

It's all supposition but there's little doubt in my mind that a move to Ulster (and Ulster players moving south) happens less due to cultural factors and them being separate countries whether we like it or not.

Former Former · 22-06-2018 01:05PM

Buer wrote: »

Pretty sure Jack Conan said he was offered a move there before his last contract and turned it down.

It's all supposition but there's little doubt in my mind that a move to Ulster (and Ulster players moving south) happens less due to cultural factors and them being separate countries whether we like it or not.

I don't remember him saying it, and I don't even remember it being more than a rumour, but I'm open to correction.

Given we had Cooney this season, Murphy and Moore (indirectly) next season, Rodney Ah You before that and Alan O'Connor & Dave Shanahan too, is it still that much of an issue?

irishbucsfan · 22-06-2018 01:08PM

If you’re looking for confirmation from anyone that they turned down moves anywhere, I reckon you’ll find they’re few and far between. Not a good look.

22-06-2018 01:11PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If you’re looking for confirmation from anyone that they turned down moves anywhere, I reckon you’ll find they’re few and far between. Not a good look.

Meh, I've turned down awec loads of times, it's not that big a deal..

Squidgy Black · 22-06-2018 02:40PM

Dominic Ryan was another rumour but never confirmed.

Realistically most internal moves will be whispers unless successful.

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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