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Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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Comments

  • #3962
    joseywhales
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,513 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    To say he came out on top in the battle with ROG is like saying that Shane long came out on top in the battle with Robbie Keane. Different eras and one at his peak was far better than the other at his peak.

    So basically he has overcome carbery who is 22


  • #3963
    Buer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Former Former wrote: »
    Joe didn't agree. Rightly or wrongly, he preferred Madigan.

    At times he did. At other times he selected Jackson even on the bench. As I said above, Jackson's goal kicking wasn't in the same bracket and that had to be a major concern particularly when the RWC crunch games arrived.

    As an outhalf though, I don't think Madigan was ever as good and that has been borne out by their respective performances when given the starting green jersey.


  • #3964
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 20,606 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Wrong. Turn back and take some more time to get it right.

    Wrong. Maybe be more careful with your wording if you don't want your words taken at their meaning:
    awec wrote: »
    You should go read the reaction to the Ulster twitter post announcing the news.

    You should go read the reaction on the official ulster facebook page.

    You should go read the reaction of the official Ulster Supporters Club.

    You should go read the reaction on UAFC.

    Indeed, you should read the reaction on here.

    Maybe there is widespread support, maybe there isn't. You have no idea.
    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    See here's the thing. i did go and read that when I woke up yesterday morning. As I said on this very thread.
    irishbucsfan wrote:
    Then, after depressing myself by reading that and eventually as the fallout spread realising they're still a minority, I realised I couldn't care less about the opinions of the URSC, at least those on UAFC.

    That's a pretty huge brush you are after painting a significant amount of people with. I'm glad after reading a few posts you know the opinion of all the people frequenting those sites sufficiently to refer to them as:
    irishbucsfan wrote:
    odious scrotes


  • #3965
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 31,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    awec wrote: »
    I'm confused. Didn't Schmidt specifically say he'd start Jackson ahead of Sexton if the need ever arose? :confused:

    He did, but then Madigan started the RWC QF over Jackson. Though at that point Jackson had not had much game time in the actual tournament I think.


  • #3966
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,732 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Buer wrote: »
    At times he did. At other times he selected Jackson even on the bench. As I said above, Jackson's goal kicking wasn't in the same bracket and that had to be a major concern particularly when the RWC crunch games arrived.

    As an outhalf though, I don't think Madigan was ever as good and that has been borne out by their respective performances when given the starting green jersey.
    You are correct. He wasn't.


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  • #3967
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    awec wrote: »
    I'm confused. Didn't Schmidt specifically say he'd start Jackson ahead of Sexton if the need ever arose? :confused:

    Joe says lots of things. Not all of them are 100% true.


  • #3968
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Wrong. Maybe be more careful with your wording if you don't want your words taken at their meaning:

    That's a pretty huge brush you are after painting a significant amount of people with. I'm glad after reading a few posts you know the opinion of all the people frequenting those sites sufficiently to refer to them as:

    How on earth do you think:
    the opinions of the URSC, at least those on UAFC

    Means "All Ulster fans"?

    It explains why you could be so completely wrong when accusing me of hypocrisy, but it is absolutely and very obviously wrong.


  • #3969
    damianmcr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 765 ✭✭✭damianmcr


    Former Former wrote: »
    Except when this exact scenario happened.
    Was this a few years ago before Jackson established himself?

    Lets not fight over it though.

    If the Clermont and Exeter reports are true then im over the moon for the two lads.


  • #3970
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 20,606 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Madigan at his best and Jackson at his best probably didn't have a huge amount between them. The last few seasons and before Madigan went abroad Jackson played more consistently at or near his best. Madigan had a consistency problem and when teams started to mark him tighter with ball in hand he stopped having as much individual impact on the game.

    Jackson was better at bringing the Ulster backline into a game than Madigan was at bringing the Leinster back line into the game.


  • #3971
    Buer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    joseywhales wrote: »
    To say he came out on top in the battle with ROG is like saying that Shane long came out on top in the battle with Robbie Keane. Different eras and one at his peak was far better than the other at his peak.

    So basically he has overcome carbery who is 22

    He was selected as a 21 year old to make his debut and start in the 6N ahead of ROG who then decided to retire. If you reckon that's not worthy of seeing someone off that's grand.

    You're essentially proving my point regarding people struggling ever to give him a fair appraisal due to their views on other available outhalves.


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  • #3972
    joseywhales
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,513 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    awec wrote: »
    Buer wrote: »
    At times he did. At other times he selected Jackson even on the bench. As I said above, Jackson's goal kicking wasn't in the same bracket and that had to be a major concern particularly when the RWC crunch games arrived.

    As an outhalf though, I don't think Madigan was ever as good and that has been borne out by their respective performances when given the starting green jersey.
    You are correct. He wasn't.

    Right but the only objective opinion we have is the one of the Irish coach in the most important game of the 4 year cycle.


  • #3973
    joseywhales
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,513 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    Buer wrote: »
    joseywhales wrote: »
    To say he came out on top in the battle with ROG is like saying that Shane long came out on top in the battle with Robbie Keane. Different eras and one at his peak was far better than the other at his peak.

    So basically he has overcome carbery who is 22

    He was selected as a 21 year old to make his debut and start in the 6N ahead of ROG who then decided to retire. If you reckon that's not worthy of seeing someone off that's grand.

    You're essentially proving my point regarding people struggling ever to give him a fair appraisal due to their views on other available outhalves.

    Not really, I never said he wasn't a good outhalf, just that he didn't out compete ROG or madigan


  • #3974
    Buer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    joseywhales wrote: »
    awec wrote: »
    Buer wrote: »
    At times he did. At other times he selected Jackson even on the bench. As I said above, Jackson's goal kicking wasn't in the same bracket and that had to be a major concern particularly when the RWC crunch games arrived.

    As an outhalf though, I don't think Madigan was ever as good and that has been borne out by their respective performances when given the starting green jersey.
    You are correct. He wasn't.

    Right but the only objective opinion we have is the one of the Irish coach in the most important game of the 4 year cycle.

    Schmidt isn't infallible. I believe he had something of a soft spot for Madigan and the decision in the RWC came back to bite him badly in the end.

    I may well have made the same call though. When it came to the crunch, Madigan's goal kicking was too valuable to leave out given Jackson wasn't kicking for Ulster at that point.


  • #3975
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 20,606 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    How on earth do you think:



    Means "All Ulster fans"?

    It explains why you could be so completely wrong when accusing me of hypocrisy, but it is absolutely and very obviously wrong.

    Ulster twitter, Ulster facebook, Ulster supporters club, UAFC. You said you read the comments on those sites and were depressed. You didn't say some, you didn't suggest there was balance, you didn't suggest there were differing opinions. You made a blanket statement about a significant number of Ulster fans.

    Even suggesting you know the mindset of all fans on even one of those sites highlights the casual disregard you hold for people who don't agree with you.

    It's a disregard that becomes ironic when you see the reaction you have to the same kind of blanket labelling.


  • #3976
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Ulster twitter, Ulster facebook, Ulster supporters club, UAFC. You said you read the comments on those sites and were depressed. You didn't say some, you didn't suggest there was balance, you didn't suggest there were differing opinions. You made a blanket statement about a significant number of Ulster fans.

    Even suggesting you know the mindset of all fans on even one of those sites highlights the casual disregard you hold for people who don't agree with you.

    It's a disregard that becomes ironic when you see the reaction you have to the same kind of blanket labelling.

    I made a statement about "the opinions of the URSC, at least those on UAFC"

    That's it. That's what the post was about, as much as you want to twist. I've no idea why you feel the need to completely twist what I'm saying to make it out that I think something that I don't. Even now when it's been pointed out to you that you are wrong.

    Although its far more depressing that you feel the need to go to bat for those people. I'm sure they're a small, extreme minority of the fanbase. And maybe you should take some time to read what they said about groups of women before deciding to defend them.


  • #3977
    joseywhales
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,513 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    Buer wrote: »
    joseywhales wrote: »
    awec wrote: »
    Buer wrote: »
    At times he did. At other times he selected Jackson even on the bench. As I said above, Jackson's goal kicking wasn't in the same bracket and that had to be a major concern particularly when the RWC crunch games arrived.

    As an outhalf though, I don't think Madigan was ever as good and that has been borne out by their respective performances when given the starting green jersey.
    You are correct. He wasn't.

    Right but the only objective opinion we have is the one of the Irish coach in the most important game of the 4 year cycle.

    Schmidt isn't infallible. I believe he had something of a soft spot for Madigan and the decision in the RWC came back to bite him badly in the end.

    I may well have made the same call though. When it came to the crunch, Madigan's goal kicking was too valuable to leave out given Jackson wasn't kicking for Ulster at that point.
    I don't think madigan was the reason we lost to Argentina.

    Also his goal kicking is an attribute of him as a player *if* it was the reason he was picked, that doesn't mean he wasn't picked ahead of Jackson.

    Also if being picked ahead of someone deos not mean that you have out competed them then your previous point that Jackson out competed ogara based on his selection for one game in the 6n is false.


  • #3978
    Felix Plain Rent
    Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭ Felix Plain Rent


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    No, I can assess someone is misogynist if they say misogynistic things.
    Literalism is rubbish.


  • #3979
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Literalism is rubbish.

    Absolutely, you should always consider context and intent.


  • #3980
    Felix Plain Rent
    Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭ Felix Plain Rent


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Absolutely, you should always consider context and intent.

    Ah, so there is nuance that you are not capturing in the below, which means that it is not as simple as you're setting it out?

    Gotcha.
    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    No, I can assess someone is misogynist if they say misogynistic things.


  • #3981
    Buer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    joseywhales wrote: »
    Buer wrote: »
    joseywhales wrote: »
    awec wrote: »
    Buer wrote: »
    At times he did. At other times he selected Jackson even on the bench. As I said above, Jackson's goal kicking wasn't in the same bracket and that had to be a major concern particularly when the RWC crunch games arrived.

    As an outhalf though, I don't think Madigan was ever as good and that has been borne out by their respective performances when given the starting green jersey.
    You are correct. He wasn't.

    Right but the only objective opinion we have is the one of the Irish coach in the most important game of the 4 year cycle.

    Schmidt isn't infallible. I believe he had something of a soft spot for Madigan and the decision in the RWC came back to bite him badly in the end.

    I may well have made the same call though. When it came to the crunch, Madigan's goal kicking was too valuable to leave out given Jackson wasn't kicking for Ulster at that point.
    I don't think madigan was the reason we lost to Argentina.

    Also his goal kicking is an attribute of him as a player *if* it was the reason he was picked, that doesn't mean he wasn't picked ahead of Jackson.

    Also if being picked ahead of someone deos not mean that you have out competed them then your previous point that Jackson out competed ogara based on his selection for one game in the 6n is false.
    You're reading things I've never said whatsoever again. He played poorly. I never said he was the reason we lost. That would be silly.

    I never said Madigan wasn't selected ahead in the RWC. I highlighted a potential reason for it.

    And Jackson was picked to start in three games in that 6N in 2013 ahead of ROG. Just because they were at different stages, it doesn't mean they were competing for the same spot and Jackson was selected. It's a straw man. Just the way Madigan was preferred in the RWC.

    But I believe they've gone on to show who is the clear better player since then. It's not some binary situation where a guy gets selected so is clearly a better player.

    The point is, Jackson is the only other available Irish outhalf that is fully proven test level outhalf outside of Sexton but will always struggle to get full credit from some.


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  • #3982
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 20,606 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I made a statement about "the opinions of the URSC, at least those on UAFC"

    That's it. That's what the post was about, as much as you want to twist. I've no idea why you feel the need to completely twist what I'm saying to make it out that I think something that I don't. Even now when it's been pointed out to you that you are wrong.

    Although its far more depressing that you feel the need to go to bat for those people. I'm sure they're a small, extreme minority of the fanbase. And maybe you should take some time to read what they said about groups of women before deciding to defend them.

    If that wasn't your sentiment then fine, you drafted it poorly, it didn't require any twisting on my part.

    I've read plenty of comments from people that I disagree with, doesn't mean I label "all women" or "all men" or "all members" of particular sites or provinces as odious scrotes.

    And I'm not going to bat for anyone. Where have I defended those remarks? If anything I'm defending those who you've labelled who would also disagree with those sentiment. Whose twisting things now.

    Otherwise I and others are simply pointing out that you don't have a clue what the majority of Ulster fans think and you don't have a clue what the majority of people on the Island think. You just seem to presume that because you believe you are right that the majority of people would agree with you.

    For all you know more people in Ulster could agree with you than people in the Republic.

    And all of that is ignoring this little gem:
    irishbucsfan wrote:
    I do wish their dream of cutting ties with the IRFU and setting up a new side under the auspices of the SRU was even 0.001% feasible, it would certainly save us potential future embarrassment.

    That would seem to be a sentiment that would punish all Ulster fans. No?


  • #3983
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Ah, so there is nuance that you are not capturing in the below, which means that it is not as simple as you're setting it out?

    Gotcha.

    Here's the thing. You're trying to make what would be an excellent point if it was applicable. So I certainly give that credit. So what I said requires explanation.

    It's completely fair enough to say that things should not be taken literally in every sense. So if someone uses mysoginistic language, it does not in itself condemn them. I didn't say if someone uses mysoginistic language they hate women though.

    I was taking context and intent into the equation though. For example, if someone just calls someone a "slut" it could mean absolutely anything and there's nothing to be gained by jumping to a conclusion on their attitudes. If however a group of men come together to make plans to intimidate/belittle women and use misogyinistic language while doing it, there's a lot more to be gained from such a judgement. But no one wants to waste their time reading these three paragraphs, so I'll leave it as "I can assess someone is misogynist if they say misogynistic things."


  • #3984
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,730 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Absolutely, you should always consider context and intent.

    Any chance you could finish this conversation in light of the above comment?

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106732844&postcount=3956
    Franciebrady wrote:
    I don't 'know' him, he made the move on a night out, he wanted to be with somebody and had tried several other women before this. It didn't matter as long as it was a female.

    I was with other males whom I don't think are horndogs and there were plenty in the premises I didn't know who were not behaving like horndogs.


    Am I anti-male for having the opinion that this guy and the few others he was with were 'horndogs'.


  • #3985
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If that wasn't your sentiment then fine, you drafted it poorly, it didn't require any twisting on my part.

    I mean I wish I could help you but I obviously don't have that ability.

    I said explicitly who I was referring to. It literally couldn't be easier to understand.

    Deleted User wrote: »
    That would seem to be a sentiment that would punish all Ulster fans. No?
    Do all Ulster fans want to split with the IRFU and start a new team with the SRU? Where's your data :pac:


  • #3986
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    Buer wrote: »
    Schmidt isn't infallible. I believe he had something of a soft spot for Madigan and the decision in the RWC came back to bite him badly in the end.

    I may well have made the same call though. When it came to the crunch, Madigan's goal kicking was too valuable to leave out given Jackson wasn't kicking for Ulster at that point.

    You can dismiss it as goal kicking or versatility but look at the number of minutes Jackson played in the RWC warm ups and pool games; he was never in the mix.

    Does any of this matter? No. Or maybe it does.

    Jackson has never been central​ to the national side. At very best he was level with Madigan who is himself very average and neither ever came close to Sexton. I've seen people saying Jackson was pushing Sexton; not even remotely.

    So... What if this had all happened to someone less expendable or someone who was more popular with fans across the country? A Best, Sexton or Murray, would we as fans been as quick to think that dumping them was the right call, would IRFU have taken the same steps?

    Just a thought.


  • #3987
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Any chance you could finish this conversation in light of the above comment?

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106732844&postcount=3956

    I already explained why I'm not particularly interested in getting into specific examples, especially ones that are changing.

    That one you have could be interpreted a number of ways, I probably wouldn't think it qualifies though, no.


  • #3988
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Former Former wrote: »
    So... What if this had all happened to someone less expendable or someone who was more popular with fans across the country? A Best, Sexton or Murray, would we as fans been as quick to think that dumping them was the right call, would IRFU have taken the same steps?

    Just a thought.

    It could easily have panned out differently. Have to obviously ignore the differences between the Irish/UK legal system for the hypothetical...

    Although I think Best was pretty quick to fall foul of a fairly ridiculous online campaign... So many not.

    It all depends on the players' reputation. I think there was probably enough ammunition there in that case to ruin any of them.


  • #3989
    Buer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Former Former wrote: »
    Jackson has never been central​ to the national side. At very best he was level with Madigan.

    I agree mostly with what you say aside from the above. What Jackson has delivered in a green jersey far outstrips what Madigan has. Multiple 6N starts, beating Australia and SA in Cape Town.

    He has proven he's a test level outhalf which nobody else has in well over a decade aside from ROG and Sexton.


  • #3990
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,730 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I already explained why I'm not particularly interested in getting into specific examples, especially ones that are changing.

    That one you have could be interpreted a number of ways, I probably wouldn't think it qualifies though, no.

    You had no problem having a go after you said that, when you thought you had a hole in my argument.

    Carry on. I think you know you were talking ****e when you accused them of being misogynists.


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  • #3991
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    You had no problem having a go after you said that, when you thought you had a hole in my argument.

    Carry on. I think you know you were talking ****e when you accused them of being misogynists.

    I'm absolutely and totally confident that anyone who does/says the things they were are misogynists. Awful stuff.

    Feel free to disagree, I just hope you aren't a party to it.


This discussion has been closed.
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